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Intergalactic Lawman
Nargothrond
Apr 3 2012, 4:32am
Post #1 of 17
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Where is Gil Galad from??
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Movie question -where is Gil Galad from? Is he from Rivendell, Eregion, the Grey Havens or one of the parts of Lindon??
The way the film makes it out is that he is Elronds "leader" so I always assumed that he was from Rivendell and so were all the other elves that fought at the last alliance...
And what about Elendil -Arnor?
I find it all a bit confusing... Especially legolas's line about Isildur being the "last king of Gondor" -can anyone explain that to me?
I guess what I am asking is that if you have only seen the films and know none of the background -where are these guys that are fighting Sauron in Mordor from??
Thanks in advance 
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 3 2012, 7:17am
Post #2 of 17
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None of these are really film questions
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You don't have to watch the film to answer these questions, they are all answered by reading the books.
Gil-galad was the last High King of the Noldor. His history is a little obscure, but during the second age he "lived" in Lindon, but enjoyed a strong relationship with the Numenorians.
The Last Alliance consisted of several "factions" of Elves. I suggest googling "The Last Alliance of Men and Elves" - there is far too much detail for me to simplify here.
Elendil is the father of Isildur and Anarion, and yes, as you said, lived in Arnor. Isildur was the last Lord of the Andunie.
I think that captured most of you questions
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 3 2012, 7:30am
Post #3 of 17
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Don't you hate it when the editing window finishes whilst your editing a post!! 
My edit is:
I have gone back and checked to see when Legolas says "Last King of Gondor". It appears to me that this was put in place as a plot simplification. As I said above, he is not the last King of Gondor. Maybe Legolas should have read a history book before embarking on the quest 
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Earl
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 3 2012, 3:41pm
Post #4 of 17
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Concerning Isildur being "the last King of Gondor"
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After Isildur died, none from his line ruled Gondor (until Aragorn).
So in a sense, and speaking with particular reference to the Prophecy of Malbeth, Legolas was right that Isildur was the "last" King of Gondor whose heir could summon the Army of the Dead.
Looking at it from another angle, Legolas could also have been referring to Isildur as being the "last" of the "first Kings" who established Gondor (the other two being Elendil and Anarion) at the time of the fall of Sauron in the Second Age (since Elendil and Anarion both died in Mordor just before the fall of Sauron).
The Plan 9 Interview... in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the release of The Fellowship of the Ring.
(This post was edited by Earl on Apr 3 2012, 3:43pm)
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 3 2012, 4:18pm
Post #5 of 17
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Thanks for the added detail/correction Earl 
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Apr 4 2012, 9:35am
Post #7 of 17
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What I've always like about Gil-galad
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is that he'd have a half-elven as his second :) Kinda cool, imho. A muggle-born, so-to-speak. ;)
An over-simplification, fersher ;)
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
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TheGoblinKing
Nargothrond
Apr 4 2012, 4:25pm
Post #8 of 17
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A question though its obvious either Isiludor or his siblings had kids for there to be Arathorn then Aragorn. So why was Isiludpr's son or nephew not made king after him. Or did the Stewards just seize the power out of embarrsment of Isiuldors weakness
The True King Of Mordor
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 4 2012, 5:05pm
Post #9 of 17
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None of Isildur's heirs, until Aragorn, become "King of Gondor". After Isildur, his last and only surviving son, Valandil, became King of Arnor. That leads to a long line of Kings of Arnor, through to Kings of Arthedain, then to Aragorn, who became the King of the Reunited Kingdom.
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TheGoblinKing
Nargothrond
Apr 4 2012, 7:43pm
Post #10 of 17
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I mean in all logic Isiuldor's son should have been king if indeed Isiuldor was king. In normal king succession the line shouldn't have been broken. Put aside Middle Earth politics. I'm talk common since as a view point of a non reader. I mean a non fan will get confused as to why since Aragorn was a desendent why was there a need to have a steward unless they thought Isiuldor offspring was dead.
The True King Of Mordor
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 4 2012, 7:55pm
Post #11 of 17
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Just ignore the whole "last king" business. Perhaps you need to read appendices or google some of these longer more complicated questions.
The reason for the Stewards is not down to Isildurs death. That came later on. To complicate things more, Earnur was really the last King of Gondor. This is because had no children, and Gondor was in decline. The Kin-Strife, the Great Plague and the attack of the Wainraiders led to Stewardship.
Edit: Sorry, I am rubbish at explaining things well. Someone will come along and add more detail - I just give the overview (hence your confusion)
(This post was edited by DanielLB on Apr 4 2012, 7:57pm)
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dormouse
Gondolin
Apr 4 2012, 10:30pm
Post #12 of 17
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Isildur was the elder son of Elendil - his younger brother was Anarion.
After the fall of Numenor, Elendil and his sons established the kingdoms in Middle Earth. Elendil was High King over both kingdoms, but actually lived in the North Kingdom, Arnor. His sons ruled jointly in the South Kingdom, Gondor.
Anarion was killed in the war which ended with the battle before the gates of Mordor which we see at the beginning of the films; his father Elendil died not long after him. That left Isildur as heir to his father - High King. If he had lived he would have done exactly as his father did, living and ruling in Arnor in the north, entrusting rule of Gondor to his brother's son Meneldil. As it was he went to Gondor after the battle to set things in order and establish Meleldil on the throne. Then he left for the north, but was killed on the way home. So there was no more High King, just Meneldil as King in Gondor and Isildur's son Valandil as King in Arnor (though Valandil was just a child when his father died). The two kingdoms were a lvery ong way away from one another and over time they grew apart.
Does that make sense? It's perfectly logical and follows similar rules of succession as real kingdoms, but the story is more complicated than they were able to explain in the films.
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AlatarielNoldo
Nevrast
Apr 5 2012, 3:59pm
Post #13 of 17
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He's originally from Beleriand...
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but after the destruction of that land he relocated to Lindon.
At the time of the Last Alliance, he ruled from Lindon, which includes the Grey Havens. Elrond used to live in Lindon as well but relocated and founded Rivendell (with Gil-Galad's approval) after the war in Eregion during which Sauron siezed the Rings of Power, except the three elven rings.
The Elves that fought in the Last Alliance were from all over Middle-earth: Lindon, Rivendell, Mirkwood, Lothlórien.
But in Lindon Gil-Galad still maintained his power, and Sauron dared not as yet to pass the Mountains of Ered Luin nor to assail the Havens.
[The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age]
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Felagund
Mithlond
Apr 6 2012, 9:26am
Post #14 of 17
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Isildur wasn't the last Lord of Andúnië. His grandfather, Amandil, seems to have been the last, according to The Silmarillion. The title should have gone to Elendil but I suppose when Amandil sailed off to beg the pardon of the Valar it was already pretty much game over in Númenor. Elendil was already set to flee to Middle-earth, as instructed by Amandil, and technically as there was no proof that Amandil had died, he remained Lord of Andúnië.
Best way to describe Isildur would be as the last High King of Arnor and Gondor, prior to the formation of the Reunited Kingdom under Elessar. Don't think it's ever explained why Isildur's son Valandil doesn't inherit the High Kingship. Anárion's line is the junior of the Elendili royalty, so technically Meneldil should have acknowledged Valandil as overlord. Probably a pragmatic decision not to argue the toss - Valandil was a child when he took the throne, the Dúnedain of Arnor had their own problems to deal with (they'd just lost their king and 200 of their best men at the Gladden Fields), not to mention the sheer distance between the two kingdoms. Also, given the turbulent events at the end of the Second Age and early in the Third, there had hardly been time to establish a tradition of High Kingship based in Arnor. Elendil appears to have been undisputably the master of all the Dúnedain in Middle-earth for more than a century but Isildur only had a year or so on the throne - so we're hardly dealing with a well-established tradition or system of High Kingship.
Also, I think I remember reading at one point that Meneldil was keen to see Isildur leave Gondor so that he could get on with ruling by himself. Perhaps enough of a hint there that Gondor was always going to drift away from Arnor at some point. The Gladden Fields just sped up the process.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Apr 6 2012, 4:05pm
Post #16 of 17
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Much easier (in the real world too)
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.. for a father to rule as High King over his two sons that for a younger cousin to claim and hold authority over an older cousin.
That kind of authority tends to weaken with generations - Russia's a good example. Nicholas I had no trouble keeping his sons in order, his son Alexander II had the unquestioned loyalty of his younger brothers and his sons, but when you get to the last Tsar, Nicholas II, his uncles were critical and bossy, his cousins found it hard to respect him - none of them were prepared to do things his way. Just a human tendency, I think.
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Felagund
Mithlond
Apr 6 2012, 4:56pm
Post #17 of 17
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I guess I'm just a sad Akabellêth junkie!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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