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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
The Ring Wraiths
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Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Mar 19 2012, 11:05pm

Post #51 of 94 (1027 views)
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Hmmm I think the importance of gender comes across [In reply to] Can't Post

In both the film and the text. I'm not sure why we are not happy to accept the role of Eowyn as "no man"?

LR


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 11:11pm

Post #52 of 94 (1007 views)
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Certainly [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not questioning that at all. I'm just saying it was both Merry ans Eowyn, rather than just the gender.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 11:15pm

Post #53 of 94 (978 views)
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I always like to think [In reply to] Can't Post

That there are certain things from the book that still happened in between scenes (or variations of), but we didn't get to see. The Hobbit's don't say anything about not meeting Bombadil and Goldberry - who's to say they didn't Tongue


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Mar 19 2012, 11:17pm

Post #54 of 94 (1005 views)
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Oh both play a role [In reply to] Can't Post

I quite agree. Perhaps I misunderstood. I had thought you meant that once Merry had stabbed him anyone I.e. male or female, human or not, could have finished him off.

LR


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 11:24pm

Post #55 of 94 (1010 views)
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I don't know [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean theoretically, yes, anyone could have (since the Merry "diminished" his power). But theoretically doesn't always happen. Tolkien fulfilled the prophecy via Eowyn, so theoretically it could only ever be Eowyn Crazy


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Mar 19 2012, 11:27pm

Post #56 of 94 (968 views)
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Ah see I'm not so sure about that. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the "no man" clause still applies even after the stabbing. Otherwise it seems rather a lot of trouble to get the only female on the battelfield there and to highlight the "no man" business in her speech.
LR


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 11:32pm

Post #57 of 94 (978 views)
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Yeppidy yep [In reply to] Can't Post

That's why I said theoretically it always had to be Eowyn, as a "theoretical being" isn't the answer to the prophecy. Tolkien intended it to be Eowyn. (Just to clarify incase I'm confusing the hell out of you, yes I agree with you Wink)

Strangely enough, I just found this:

http://sciencefiction.com/...-fantasy-characters/

Maybe this is where the films fudge it for the general audience:


Quote

The hobbit Merry distracted the Witch-King, and Eowyn took advantage of the situation and did what no man could do she killed the Witch-King



I don't the general audience appreciate Merry and Eowyn's combined role. Tolkien spent long and hard thinking of these plots and after this discussion it is clear that, for us more hardcore fans anway, a better scene was required in the films.


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Mar 19 2012, 11:33pm)


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Mar 19 2012, 11:36pm

Post #58 of 94 (1126 views)
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If only the men of Gondor knew this // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"...For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth"


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 11:38pm

Post #59 of 94 (1064 views)
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Yes, does seem strange doesn't it [In reply to] Can't Post

But I assume Sauron made them more "powerful" when it came to Pelennor.

Otherwise an eagle with a Ring and a single match could have gone into Mordor Wink


TheGoblinKing
Rohan


Mar 20 2012, 4:46am

Post #60 of 94 (1090 views)
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I Have A Question [In reply to] Can't Post

If Sauron was as powerful as people feared why did he need the Nazgul, Saruman and all these beings. I know the Ring had some of his power but speaking as a person who likes to dream up stories. Sauron comes across kind of a lame villain. I mean all he can do is look with his eye. I loved these stories and The Orcs and baddies were wicked but really i think Sauron pumeling Aragorn in his bad boy way would have made the great ending when The Ring was destroyed.

The True King Of Mordor


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Mar 20 2012, 5:50am

Post #61 of 94 (1062 views)
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Not that simple, IMO [In reply to] Can't Post

Another part of it is that the ringwraiths on Weathertop are a long, long way from Mordor, and their Master. They are simply out of their element, and away from their source, and that weakens them. Think of being a small band of soldiers deep in enemy territory, cut off from supply lines and the command structure. You are very vulnerable.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Mar 20 2012, 6:03am

Post #62 of 94 (973 views)
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Actually, not quite [In reply to] Can't Post

If the prophecy is to mean anything. The common interpretation is that "no man" did, in the end, refer to the simple fact that his final foe would be a female.

Yes, the death blow required Merry to break the ice, if you will, but for some reason, a woman was needed to deliver the coup de grace.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 20 2012, 7:46am

Post #63 of 94 (978 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

You are probably right (in other words, I agree), but the qoute given is directly from the book, whereas what you say is interpretation of what happened.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 20 2012, 7:48am

Post #64 of 94 (897 views)
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Theoretically [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe you didn't read my later posts. I was only saying theoretically. Eowyn was always needed to fulfill the prophecy - as Tolkien intended - otherwise her storyline is null.


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Mar 20 2012, 1:32pm

Post #65 of 94 (1054 views)
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Don't forget, he was also slain pretty easy after loosing the ring [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean, in the film he just explodes immediately - both when Isildur takes it and Frodo destroys it. I think it's his version of a hissy fit.

"...For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth"


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Mar 20 2012, 1:36pm

Post #66 of 94 (1014 views)
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"Fire is our friend IN THE WILDERNESS" [In reply to] Can't Post

It does seem to imply that only when they're in the wild, far from Mordor will fire work. When with an army or under Sauron's shadow I'm sure they're a lot braver against fire. That's the excuse I'll tell myself, anyway. Wink

"...For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth"


Asger
Bree


Mar 20 2012, 6:19pm

Post #67 of 94 (1001 views)
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I don't think anyone could have killed the Witch King... [In reply to] Can't Post

...at the top of his powers. And Eowyn couldn't kill him because she was female; but when she revealed she was a woman, the Witch King felt fear because of the prophecy, therefore he became vulnerable. You must realise he is a wraith, his body is held together by his mind, fear or confusion will weaken him.

"Don't take life seriously, it ain't nohow permanent!" Pogo
www.willy-centret.dk


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 20 2012, 6:33pm

Post #68 of 94 (957 views)
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I assumed [In reply to] Can't Post

that it meant it was there only good means of defending themselves. Hiding behind a tree or down a hill is all good and dandy, but throwing soil or a flower at a Ringwraith, in my experience, isn't much use.

On a completely unrelated note, I don't think this bit of the forums has seen so much action (in terms of posting)!


imin
Valinor

Mar 20 2012, 6:56pm

Post #69 of 94 (972 views)
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When do you think the witch king was at the height of his powers?/ [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 20 2012, 7:06pm

Post #70 of 94 (941 views)
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Not sure that makes sense [In reply to] Can't Post

And maybe that's what imin is getting at?

Surely the Witch-King was at the height of his power at Pelennor, and Eowyn killed him. He can't have been at the height of his power at any other time?


TheGoblinKing
Rohan


Mar 20 2012, 7:23pm

Post #71 of 94 (1002 views)
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Movie Wise It Was Against Gandalf In The ROTK EE [In reply to] Can't Post

I am however wondering now if maybe Sauron was channeling his power at its highest and thus Gandalf was facing Saurons power not the Witch Kings. I think Sauron sinced the momentum change when Rohan came and let The Witch King die as punishement for not being able to beat a girl.

The True King Of Mordor


imin
Valinor

Mar 20 2012, 7:50pm

Post #72 of 94 (935 views)
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i think [In reply to] Can't Post

that is totally out there, lol. I think PJ did what he did as it looked good on screen nothing more, he deviated from the book which we have said what happens but you are not interested in knowing so there is nothing more to say than, i dont think your interpretation is right but its certainly one you can have.


TheGoblinKing
Rohan


Mar 20 2012, 7:55pm

Post #73 of 94 (958 views)
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Actually Id Prefer [In reply to] Can't Post

That part been exactly like the book. A show off between Gandy and Witchy been great if showed an equal footing then The Witch King leaves in rage and Gets killed by Eowyn.
I could have done without it in the EE version.
I love Pete but he has this thing not wanting to let Wizards do magic too much.

The True King Of Mordor


Asger
Bree


Mar 20 2012, 9:52pm

Post #74 of 94 (931 views)
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When do you think WK was at the height? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure WK was at his highest at Pelennor. What I meant was that Eowyn revealing she was not a man shook his belief that no-one could kill him, no man, that is. And then he was mortally afraid.
I'm sure Gandalf could have pulled the 'I'm not a man'-bit too, if he had a chance, he's after all a Maya.

"Don't take life seriously, it ain't nohow permanent!" Pogo
www.willy-centret.dk


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 20 2012, 9:57pm

Post #75 of 94 (966 views)
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So it is Gandalf that predicted the end of the world in 2012?!?! [In reply to] Can't Post

On a more serious note, he probably was scared. Eowyn showed no fear and he probably soon realised death was nigh.

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