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Black Breathalizer
Nargothrond
Mar 18 2012, 2:25am
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Thinking about Thorin Oakenshield
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How is the character of Thorin going to be depicted in the Jackson films?
In the book, Thorin really wasn't much of a leader, Gandalf and later Bilbo were the ones who served as the defacto leaders of the group. At no point during the journey to the Lonely Mountain did Thorin really take charge when the party got into a tough spot. In fact, it wasn't until the very end that Thorin displays the self-sacrifice, inspirational leadership and true wisdom one would expect from the great line of dwarf lords he came from.
Will the film Thorin played by Richard Armitage mirror the book or will he display more leadership qualities early on? If he is portrayed differently from the book, in what ways will he be different?
What's your take?
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Pittsmen
Ossiriand
Mar 18 2012, 2:43am
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The feeling I get from the available footage is that he is a rather head strong leader.
That said, they completely neutered Aragorn in LOTR so who knows.
Oh Yeah, Check out his Majesty.
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Junesong
Nargothrond
Mar 18 2012, 2:51am
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You should check out The Tolkien Professor's podcast series "Riddles in the Dark". The latest episode deals with your exact questions. I'd give you the link but I'm on my phone. Google it and you'll find it.
"Tim... Canterbury... Canterbury Tales... Chaucer... Shakespeare."
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Black Breathalizer
Nargothrond
Mar 18 2012, 2:57am
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Pittsman wrote: they completely neutered Aragorn in LOTR so who knows.
Back on topic, when it came to the battles on the journey to Erebor, the book Thorin seemed to fade into the woodwork. I don't think that's going to be the case in the films. I'm guessing Jackson is going to give his Thorin a GREAT BIG PAIR. 
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Pittsmen
Ossiriand
Mar 18 2012, 4:22am
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Aragorn from the book and Aragorn from the movies are quiet different people.
The fact that he was timid and unwilling to take the throne in the movies, contrasted with his absolute conviction in the books, really changes his character.
He was driven to be king, because if he was not the king, he could not marry Arwen. BTW he could not become king without first saving middle earth, soooo it was kind of a big motivator for the quest.
Oh Yeah, Check out his Majesty.
(This post was edited by Pittsmen on Mar 18 2012, 4:22am)
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One Ringer
Dor-Lomin
Mar 18 2012, 5:49am
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There's nothing to really go by,
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Going by the trailer, all we can see from Thorin's character is Gandalf presenting him as the "leader" of the company, and Thorin's words with Gandalf on his responsibilities with Bilbo. This doesn't really tell us a lot. Him saying that he "won't be responsible for his fate" could be taken highly, but it could also be no more different than someone being left to look after someone and simply saying "It's not my fault if he gets hurt."
It's too early to pass any judgment in my opinion.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."
FOTR 10th Anniversary Music Video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33xJU3AIwsg
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TheGoblinKing
Nargothrond
Mar 18 2012, 7:12am
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I pretty much figure Gandalf is the real leader but Thorin has this Dwarf ego and Gandalf likely reminds him constantly he is not leader of the mountain just yet. I always figured the one who Had The Map was leader.
I think they however will allow Thorin to think he is leader so he is not complaining. But my guess is since Balin is the only Dwarf to likely visit Bilbo. That likely Balin kinda felt Bilbo was there leader. He just had to be loyal to him cousin when they fall into the greed of the Gold.
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ShireHorse
Nargothrond
Mar 18 2012, 2:55pm
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I think they'll be a bit different
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but I'm not sure by how much.
Book Thorin is not totally heroic all the way through because Tolkien needs to give Bilbo the opportunity to develop and show his metal. If Thorin managed to save the dwarves every time, then where would Bilbo come into it?
Tolkien also likes his moments of fun and sometimes this is at the expense of the dwarves, including Thorin.
But, don't deny Thorin his couple of heroic moments in the first half of the book. He makes a brave attack on the trolls armed only with a flaming brand - and this is a bit reminiscent of his Oakenshield moment. When Gandalf appears and decapitates the Great Goblin, he and Thorin fight off the goblins in the tunnels together in a holding action, allowing the others to escape. And he shoots the white stag when the others have stupidly wasted all their arrows. I also think he confronts the GG and Thranduil quite bravely.
What will we get in the film? Well, the blurb attached to the film refers to him as "the legendary Thorin Oakenshield" which I think is a clue. The fact that they've chosen Richard Armitage to play the part is another. The strong feeling that we're going to get some back history like the Battle of Azanulbizar, possibly in the first film, is yet another. And I didn't see Thorin involved in that undignified pratfall through Bilbo's front door when they first arrive at Bag End either.
Interestingly, although I think they will play him up in some ways, in others they might play him down, perhaps involving all the dwarves in various heroics which the book allots solely to him. For instance, all the dwarves appear to fight with the trolls not just Thorin; and perhaps they will all be involved in the goblin tunnels as well. And will we see Kili shoot the white stag rather than Thorin? After all, Kili has got to do something with the bow and arrows we see strapped to his back.
So, final thought: yes, I do think he will be more heroic, but I think that all the dwarves will be shown as being much tougher and braver than in the book too.
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Black Breathalizer
Nargothrond
Mar 18 2012, 3:46pm
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ShireHorse wrote: The fact that they've chosen Richard Armitage to play the part is another. The strong feeling that we're going to get some back history like the Battle of Azanulbizar, possibly in the first film, is yet another. And I didn't see Thorin involved in that undignified pratfall through Bilbo's front door when they first arrive at Bag End either.
Very interesting post! I also believe that Thorin will be played in a more heroic and dignified fashion than he appeared at times in the book. You mentioned the Battle of Azanilbizar. I wouldn't be surprised to see a flashback to that battle to establish the long-standing hatred between the dwarves and the orcs. I also wouldn't be surprised to see it used as a vehicle for establishing that Azog is Thorin's sworn archenemy.
But it will be interesting to see how Thorin's leadership is portrayed as the relationship between Bilbo and Thorin unfolds on screen. While the film makers need to show Bilbo's growing confidence and leadership, they have to be careful that it doesn't come at the expense of Thorin. While the audience will see Thorin as a flawed leader, they have to have sympathy, admiration, and respect for him in order for his final redemption to work.
So I wouldn't be surprised to see Thorin assuming a stronger role against the trolls and in the scenes in Goblintown. The film makers may also show him as a 'legendary leader' who has fallen on hard times since the loss of Erebor. Rather than being naive, the film makers may portray him as fully realizing the gambit he is taking by embarking on his quest with such a motley, rag-tag bunch of dwarves. In this scenario, both he and Gandalf realize the odds are stacked against him but who knows he has no choice: it's now or never.
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DarkJackal
Nargothrond
Mar 18 2012, 7:08pm
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...thinking about Thorin? Anyway, I asked something similar on my blog a few months ago in this post, http://thorinoakenshield.net/...-in-the-hobbit-film/. I think more clues have come to light since then, all of which ShireHorse sums up effectively in this thread. My focus was more about how tolerant the character would be, rather than to what degree he would assume all responsibility of leadership, but these go hand in hand. My guess is he will be much more forceful than the book version. I have noticed that in the last few vlogs he is often the one in front of the Company in several shots (also leading the charge on the trolls in the trailer screencaps. He appears to be directing the group as they are running from something in mirkwood (this was a couple vlogs back, in one of the video monitor shots).
This is just a guess, but I feel that he will be slightly sarcastic with Bilbo's advice, sort of "Fine, if you think you can do any better, then by all means lead on." And when Bilbo's plans actually work, he has to rethink his contempt bit by bit. Not sure I have much to support this but there is one shot of Thorin standing behind Bilbo looking a bit haughty while Bilbo appears to be trying to work something out.
Anyway, good question. I'll have to re-visit this on my blog once I find all those screencaps I'm thinking of.
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DarkJackal
Nargothrond
Mar 18 2012, 7:42pm
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Except you said it far more coherently! All good points, especially the reminder that book Thorin was not a loafer all the time (just some of the time). 
(This post was edited by DarkJackal on Mar 18 2012, 7:46pm)
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Black Breathalizer
Nargothrond
Mar 18 2012, 7:52pm
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The role age plays in Thorin's character
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DarkJackal wrote: My focus was more about how tolerant the character would be, rather than to what degree he would assume all responsibility of leadership, but these go hand in hand. My guess is he will be much more forceful than the book version.
Nice post--and blog--DarkJackal!
By making Thorin 'younger' (at least in appearance) from the book, the film makers are also making it easier for Thorin to appear tolerant and open to Gandalf's advice because they will view Gandalf as Thorin's mentor. So even when Thorin chafes at Gandalf's advice (such as choosing Bilbo as his burglar), the audience will understand when he eventually goes along with it. The dynamic between Thorin and Gandalf would be perceived quite differently if Thorin had white hair and a gray beard and looked as if he were the same age as Gandalf.
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DarkJackal
Nargothrond
Mar 19 2012, 3:56am
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...that powder-keg issue we can't seem to get over!
Just kidding Black. Your point is a good one, and I will get back to it in a moment.
After a little searching, I find evidence that Thorin's more "youthful" appearance is not a blatant contradiction of the text. It is obvious that most people think these dwarves---with the exception of Fili and Kili---are supposed to look aged (though I wonder how much of that is due to the Rankin-Bass visuals permeating our brains). The best support for this belief comes in the description of Balin as "a very old-looking dwarf" with "a white beard" (Bombur is also referred to as "old", but with little physical description aside from his girth). Because Thorin is the eldest of the group, we assume that he would look more aged than Balin. But there is nothing explicit in any of the texts to support this assumption (physically, there is scant description of Thorin, aside from what he is wearing). However, in the "Notes on Chronology of Durin’s Line" from The Peoples of Middle-earth, Tolkien contradicts his own description of Balin (who was 178 at the time of The Hobbit) and allows the dwarves to look hale well into their 200's:
"Dwarves of different ‘breeds’ vary in their longevity. Durin’s race were originally long-lived (especially those named Durin), but like most other peoples they had become less so during the Third Age. Their average age (unless they met a violent death) was about 250 years, which they seldom fell far short of, but could occasionally far exceed (up to 300). A dwarf of 300 was about as rare and aged as a Man of 100.
Dwarves remained young – e.g. regarded as too tender for really hard work or for fighting – until they were 30 or nearly that (Dain II was very young in 2799 (32) and his slaying of Azog was a great feat). After that they hardened and took on the appearance of age (by human standards) very quickly. By 40 all Dwarves looked much alike in age, until they reached what they regarded as old age, about 240. They then began to age and wrinkle and go quite white quickly (baldness being unknown among them), unless they were going to be long-lived, in which case the process was delayed."
If you follow this reasoning, Balin is an anomaly, and Thorin, being only 195, should not look particularly old yet, nor should any of the Company. Additionally, as an heir of Durin, Thorin might (had circumstances not intervened) been one of the longer-lived dwarves.
But all that being said, how many viewers are ever going to read this obscure note, or give a damn about the intricacies of dwarf longevity? An epic few! Which means most will simply take it at face value: Balin is really old, Thorin not as old. And while no dwarf could ever approach Gandalf's age, from the average viewer's perspective, any grey or white bearded fellow will appear somewhat on par with him. Which means Balin may been seen as more wise, while Thorin could potentially be more brash, but still be seeking wisdom from of an "elder".
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Black Breathalizer
Nargothrond
Mar 19 2012, 1:37pm
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DarkJackal wrote: But all that being said, how many viewers are ever going to read this obscure note, or give a damn about the intricacies of dwarf longevity? An epic few! Which means most will simply take it at face value
I agree. This discussion of Thorin's appearance (older looking vs. younger looking) does raise the issue of how our society judges a person's behaviors and actions through the lens of age. Is stubbornness in a younger man viewed the same way when exhibited by an older man? How about brashness or pride? If Thorin is angry at Gandalf would it be viewed differently if the two were perceived by the audience to be the same age versus Thorin being much younger?
When you start to think about this question, it becomes much easier (at least in my mind) to understand why Thorin is portrayed as younger looking than most of us book fans expected.
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lindorian
Lindon
Mar 19 2012, 4:15pm
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That is a stunning post and makes absolute sense. Thanks! (not that I had a problem in the first place!)
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 19 2012, 7:27pm
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A few Hints from The Hobbit as to Thorin's beard.
1."Don't dip your beard in the foam, father!" they cried to Thorin, who
was bent almost on to his hands and knees. "It is long enough without
watering it."
2."Durin, Durin!" said Thorin. "He was the father of the fathers of the
eldest race of Dwarves, the Longbeards, and my first ancestor: I am his
heir."
3.The sun had long gone behind
the mountains. Already the shadows were deepening about them, though far
away through the trees and over the black tops of those growing lower down
they could still see the evening lights on the plains beyond. They limped
along now as fast as they were able down the gentle slopes of a pine forest
in a slanting path leading steadily southwards. At times they were pushing
through a sea of bracken with tall fronds rising right above the hobbit's
head; at times they were marching along quiet as quiet over a floor of
pine-needles; and all the while the forest-gloom got heavier and the
forest-silence deeper. There was no wind that evening to bring even a
sea-sighing into the branches of the trees.
"Must we go any further?" asked Bilbo, when it was so dark that he
could only just see Thorin's beard wagging beside him, and so quiet that he
could hear the dwarves' breathing like a loud noise.
It appears that Tolkien had a long white beard in mind for Thorin.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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imin
Doriath
Mar 19 2012, 7:43pm
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old, long, white bearded thorin
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I think the picture they have of Thorin, looks like Thorin from my imagination
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:John_Howe_-_The_King_Under_the_Mountain.jpg
I am partial to alot of John Howe's work though so i might be biased.
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ShireHorse
Nargothrond
Mar 19 2012, 8:08pm
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are both being consulted for The Hobbit as far as design is concerned, I can imagine that they have helped with the look of Thorin. I really hope that we get to hear their comments on the Extras and I would lay odds that they understood that "book looks" and "film looks" are two different things. I've always felt uneasy about the way Tolkien changes the feel of his book at the half-way stage. The Hobbit is an experiment in story-telling with Tolkien making it up as he goes along which is why the two halves often don't quite fit together. Thorin is like two different people. And I would rather have the warrior king that we get at the end than the geriatric grandad who is the object of ridicule that we see at the beginning.
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DarkJackal
Nargothrond
Mar 19 2012, 8:49pm
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"It appears that Tolkien had a long white beard in mind for Thorin."
I don't see any reference to color of beard within the quotes you list.
My point is about age, not about beard length (it is already well noted that the movie version differs from the book in that respect). It may be relevant to the discussion as far as beard length being an indicator of age, but that would depend on the individual. Unfortunately, we have little reference for how long it takes a dwarf to become a "long-beard".
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DarkJackal
Nargothrond
Mar 19 2012, 9:11pm
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These are fabulous podcasts! I love listening to them get super excited over the possibility of seeing anything from the Battle of Azanulbizar, and had a nerd-tastic time laughing with them at all the references to Nar. "Who needs and army when you have Nar??" LOL!
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DarkJackal
Nargothrond
Mar 19 2012, 9:33pm
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It is, so far, my favorite bit of Thorin artwork. It is just a sketch really, the mail armor barely hinted at, but the impact is remarkable. But it is the look in the eyes, and the firmness of the mouth that wins me over here. Were it not for that steely expression, he could well be Santa Claus (albeit a Santa Claus wearing chainmail, with an oddly Rohirrim-looking helm!)
I don't really care what Thorin looks like (and I've scoured around for all the Thorin art the net has to offer, so I've seen a few versions). To me, "Thorin-ness" is an attitude. You've either got it, or you don't.
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 19 2012, 9:47pm
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I would say that Thorin finds himself. I would also not say that The Hobbit was any more"an experiment in story-telling with Tolkien making it up as he goes along any more than was The Lord of the Rings. I believe that the two halves of the story were intentionally contrasted. To believe what you are advocating would be to believe that Tolkien did not know exactly what he was doing. I think he understood his own stories very well.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Mar 19 2012, 9:47pm)
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Mar 19 2012, 9:50pm
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The Beard of Thorin by inference
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would have to be white or gray to be seen in the dark. (As per the above quote).
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Mar 19 2012, 9:52pm)
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DarkJackal
Nargothrond
Mar 19 2012, 9:53pm
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...it could also be blond or bright red. Just saying
[Now what was it you were saying about crows in the dark?] 
(This post was edited by DarkJackal on Mar 19 2012, 10:01pm)
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