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TheGoblinKing
Rohan
Mar 17 2012, 4:27pm
Post #1 of 94
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The Ring Wraiths
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I was wondering if anyone noticed that in the movies That The Witch King seemed stronger then when he was Stabbing Frodo. I asked this because Gandalf seems afraid of him and gets his staff destroyed. Yet back at Weathertop Aragorn runs all 5 off.
But i also suppose maybe wizards have weaknesses to Sauron servents and maybe Men do not.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Mar 17 2012, 5:17pm
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Your question can be answered simply:
"Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it. Fire is our friend in the wilderness." - Aragorn, A Knife in the Dark, Fellowship of the Ring
That is why Aragorn succeeds on Weathertop
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imin
Valinor
Mar 17 2012, 5:27pm
Post #3 of 94
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for me the gandalf and ringwraith scene
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was not done particularly well. In the book it was done differently but that is like many scenes from book to the movie. I personally prefer the books version which has them more on an even footing, with me leaning towards gandalf the white being stronger (but perhaps not by very much).
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DanielLB
Immortal
Mar 17 2012, 5:31pm
Post #4 of 94
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Now you mention it, that scene was done poorly
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In the book, Gandalf presents himself to the Witch King as he strode through the gates of Minas Tirith alone. Gandalf was done a horrible injustice in that scene. This is one of the wisest and most powerful beings in all of ME, but he is made short work of by the Witchking
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Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell
Mar 17 2012, 6:47pm
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IIRC, both in the book and the EE of the movie, the Witch King says "This is my hour!" and I take him at his word, the point being that I think the Nazgul become more powerful as Sauron rises and as they get closer to Mordor and the Shadow.
I still don't like the movie scene and agree that the book encounter is much better, but I don't think the Witch King on Weathertop (or in Crickhollow, for that matter) is in the same league as Witch King at the siege of Minas Tirith.
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Mar 17 2012, 6:50pm
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to DanielLB's comments I remember that it is stated somewhere that Sauron enhances the With King's power before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
(This post was edited by Ereinion Nénharma on Mar 17 2012, 6:50pm)
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imin
Valinor
Mar 17 2012, 7:13pm
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but gandalf comes back with greater powers also. I dunno i just dont like seeing one of my favourite characters reduced to being afraid on the floor.
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TheGoblinKing
Rohan
Mar 17 2012, 9:24pm
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Movie wise i believe the scene where Gandalf gets his Staff broken was deleted and only seen in the extended editions. I believe it was meant to show that Gondor was at its most desperate hour when Rohan can with the dawn rising deal. So thus it was a tension loss because I do not believe The Witch King is as powerful as a Balrog when a Women can beat him.
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TheGoblinKing
Rohan
Mar 17 2012, 9:30pm
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I am not so sure there is much big difference between Gandalf The Grey and White Powers. My observation is that Saurman failed as a White Wizard for good and got replaced. I think Gandalf is Stronger the Saruman at this point but I Think The Nazgul was not facing Aragorn but an Old Man really. I think the Nazgul actually are afraid of the King Of Men.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Mar 17 2012, 9:41pm
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Wow, what a massive simplification...
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So thus it was a tension loss because I do not believe The Witch King is as powerful as a Balrog when a Women can beat him.
I don't think Eowyn's gender had the inherent power of making her able to slay the Witchking- it was a prophecy spoken I think by Cirdan (correct me if I am wrong?). It said that no man would kill him and suggested he would be defeated in ways unlooked for- i.e. a woman and a hobbit killing him.
Merry's blade was forged in Numenor (at the time he ruled Angmar) which was essentially able to "break the spell that bound his hidden sinews to his iron will", leaving him vulnerable to attack. Theoretically Merry could have finished the job himself but all blades that strike the evil wraith perish, and touching any Nazgul brings on a dread sickness called the Black Breath.
This is a complete side discussion (sorry), and is my interpretation. Is it right?
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TheGoblinKing
Rohan
Mar 17 2012, 9:59pm
Post #11 of 94
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I did remember merry Stabbing him but a person would not get his Dagger was special if did not have the EE FOTR movie. I just assumed that his dagger was elf made like Bilbos sting.
Thats another question
Why does Sting Glow and Aragorns Dagger and legolas Swords never did.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Mar 17 2012, 10:02pm
Post #12 of 94
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Were made in Gondolin during the First Age. They all glowed when orcs/goblins were nearby.
Aragorn's and Legolas' weapons were not of Gondolin
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Mar 17 2012, 10:16pm
Post #13 of 94
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He didn't even use the Noldor dagger he got from Lothlorien on the Witch King. He just used the small Rohan sword he had.
That detail has always REALLY annoyed me.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Mar 17 2012, 10:18pm
Post #14 of 94
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I think it was mentioned in one of Tolkien's letters.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Mar 17 2012, 10:22pm
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Trying to have a think, but this is on wikipedia
They would have obeyed . . . any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills . . . — The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 246
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DanielLB
Immortal
Mar 17 2012, 10:24pm
Post #16 of 94
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Minor detail 
Otherwise we will get more questions!
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imin
Valinor
Mar 17 2012, 11:36pm
Post #17 of 94
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didnt get that impression of gandalf being 'only' an old man, the witch king and gandalf must have respected each other on a level of 'ooh he might be able to hurt me' level atleast thats what i get from the book, the movie to me just weakens gandalf to the point where i think its fair to assume he would have lost if the battle of continued, but like you say it makes you think gondors only hope is with rohan arriving.
Where in the FOTR EE does it show merry getting the barrow down blade or anything other than a blade given to him by aragorn when they are at weathertop? Its been awhile since i last seen the movie so i genuinely cant remember.
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Mar 18 2012, 12:00am
Post #18 of 94
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I think it was mentioned in one of Tolkien's letters.
Could be, I´m not sure...
Trying to have a think, but this is on wikipedia They would have obeyed . . . any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills . . . — The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 246
No, I don´t mean this part. It was something like ´and Sauron added him (The Witch King) with additional demonic power'. Something like that. Is it not in LOTR itself?
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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TheGoblinKing
Rohan
Mar 18 2012, 12:23am
Post #19 of 94
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Merry and Pippin were given elf knifes and i assumed its why when Merry stabs The Witch King it hurts him. To an elf they are knifes. To A Hbbit its likely Dagger sized. I believe the sequence of the gift giving is on disc 2 after Frodo is freaked out by Galadrial and the Mirror
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imin
Valinor
Mar 18 2012, 12:58am
Post #20 of 94
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I thought he stabbed the witch king with the blade aragorn found somewhere in the wild on weathertop, will have to watch them after i read through lotr again.
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imin
Valinor
Mar 18 2012, 1:01am
Post #21 of 94
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letter 210 is what ur looking for//
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Mar 18 2012, 4:16am
Post #22 of 94
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Not the one I was thinking of, but good find.
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The one I'm thinking of directly mentions the fact that the Witch King is more powerful during the Battle of Pelennor Fields. I'll have to look for it.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Mar 18 2012, 4:24am
Post #23 of 94
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1. the sword from Aragorn: he loses it after charging the uruk-hai during Boromir's final stand
2. the Noldor dagger from Galadriel: it's not in its sheath when Grishnakh grabs his belt, so it can be assumed the uruk-hai disposed of it
3. the Rohan sword he presents to Theoden: he uses it to stab the Witch King, and it was probably destroyed
4. his second Rohan sword he uses at the Black Gate: assuming his first was destroyed after wounding the Witch King
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PattyJB
Rivendell
Mar 18 2012, 5:18am
Post #24 of 94
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at the end of the Battle of Fornost.
"Do not pursue him [the Witch-king]! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall."
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TheGoblinKing
Rohan
Mar 18 2012, 7:05am
Post #25 of 94
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Maybe the fact is that its not about Merry using and Elvish Blade but maybe the fact The Witch King was not stabbed by a human meaning men but a Hobbit. Merry is not Human so maybe that was the loop hole that opened it up for Eowyn To beat him.
I still however believe Aragorn could have beaten The Witch King. I think so because. In Star Wars the Force was Always with Luke and Obi Wan. So my feeling is Aragorn was liked by greater powers then that of Dark Saurons.
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