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CR-ROTK update Sept 25, 2007


Sep 25 2007, 7:27pm

Post #1 of 5 (1011 views)
CR-ROTK update Sept 25, 2007 Can't Post

posted by Doug Adams at moviemusic.com
09-25-2007 09:56 AM PT (US)

Some of this is in response to previous discussions or questions at moviemusic.com. It might not make much sense out of context but I think there is stuff that one can deduce even out of context. Ask if you have questions.

Hi everyone,
My self-imposed exile is up, so I’ll try to add a few tidbits, updates, etc.
The first draft of the Annotated Score is now done (hence the exile). Editing and revisions will be coming soon!
Just to stave off any uncontrolled rumor mongering, there will no box-set of alternates. There a ton of stuff, to be sure, but that’s not how it’ll be presented. (And it will be presented, fear not!) And as for the 4 hours comment re: ROTK’s score, yes, this is taking into account alternates and unused pieces that were written, like the ride to Minas Tirith with alternate percussion or Frodo’s Song, etc., etc., etc. Honestly, 4.5 hours is probably a low figure when you take that ALL into account… but remember many alternates are only slightly different. If triangle plays once in the film and three times in the alternate, is that really an entirely different piece of music? If there’s a piece that sets English horn playing the History of the Ring over aleatoric strings, do we also want to hear the take where the English horn didn’t play? Is it interesting enough to even count? These are, incidentally, the same considerations being taken into account for the final presentation of this unused material. What’s really worth hearing? I know there are those that’ll say, “Everything, gimme it all!” But besides the fact that this isn’t physically feasible, there’s really only so much your ear can take it before it becomes dulled by repetition. I mean, we could fill an entire CD with just unused Prologue material from Fellowship… actually, that’s a bad example—that stuff is amazingly interesting!
Hard numbers are always going to be pretty useless in this arena, so 4 to 4.5 hours is/was a good ballpark figure, nothing more.
I won’t say much more about the presentation of unused material for now, save to say that there is a plan in place… and if you scour other posts, you’ll get some pretty good hints. Heck, I think I even buried the proposed release date in there somewhere. Dig deep!
Contracts are being drawn up now, so once everything is nice and legal, I’ll be happy to spill a few more beans.
Anyway, as you know, the four CDs and 1 DVD of ROTK:CR will solely contain ROTK music. Like the other boxed sets, ROTK will *essentially* present Shore’s final drafts of his compositions, including music that that was replaced in the film with sound effects, silence, etc. There are a few exceptions to that rule, same as there were on FOTR and TTT.
>>>And does this mean we get Sissle's piece as well??>>>
You will get Sissel’s piece, yep! Liv’s too. It will all make sense when you see the track list.
>>>Great news, everyone! Doug, have you heard the final mix for the 'end of all things' piece in CR? I'm afraid to find out the choir mixed not that powerful as in the OST, as it was done in the FOTR CR...>>>
The chorus is loud and proud.
>>>A blood red or a deep burgandy slip case with gold leaf lettering would be quite nice. Of course it would need to be big enough to fit the rarities discs as well. I wonder if the rarities discs will come in their own boxed set and what color that will be?>>>
I will be heavily involved with the Rarities production, but it’s a little ways off. You’ll see, you’ll see. (I know, it seems like each secret revealed simply unearths a dozen more. Sorry! I promise to say more when it’s time.)


1. The Finding Of The One Ring
2. The Days Are Growing Darker
3. Flotsam And Jetsam
4. Return To Edoras
5. Gollum's Villainy
6. The Palantir
7. Hope And Memory (I realise it's unlikely, but it's a beautiful title for this music)
8. The White Tower
9. Denethor
10. The Glory Of Gondor
11. Journey To The Crossroads
12. The Dead City
13. Osgiliath Overrun
14. Amon Din
15. For Lord And Land
16. Denethor And Faramir
17. The Stairs Of Cirith Ungol
18. Gollum's Treachery
19. The Last Son
20. Dunharrow
21. The Flame Of The West
22. The Dawn Of Battle
23. The Dimholt
24. Ride For Gondor!
25. The Paths Of The Dead
26. Denethor's Madness
27. The Siege Of Gondor
28. The Corsairs Of Umbar
29. Shelob's Lair
30. The Choices Of Master Samwise
31. The Second Level Burns
32. The Horns Of Rohan
33. Denethor's Pyre
34. The Pelennor Fields
35. The Nazgul And His Prey
36. Requiem For Theoden
37. The Houses Of Healing
38. The Tower Of Cirith Ungol
39. The Last Debate
40. The Land Of Shadow
41. The Black Gate Opens
42. For Frodo
43. The Destruction Of The Ring
44. The Destruction Of Mordor
45. Many Partings
46. A Far Green Country
47. Epilogue
48. The End Of An Age
I’m happy to tell you, you’ve got seven correct track titles in here!
>>>Can anyone tell me how soon they released the track titles and annotated score for the previous releases? This wait is going to be unbearable!>>>
>>>I think the Annotated Score came out after the release of the CDs? Am I remembering correctly? I thought it was within a week or two, but I remember waiting anxiously and I wouldn't have been 'anxious' before the CDs came out.>>>
The Annotated Score did, indeed, come out along with the CDs… or perhaps a day later. We’re in a better place, schedule-wise, this year, so I’d imaging you’ll see the website updated on the release day.
That’s all for today, folks. Back soon!
-DougPS – Oh hey, I meant to ask… Are you guys interested in another FSM Podcast ROTK preview this year? If so, what format? Are you out of questions by now, or are there enough to fill another podcast? Thoughts?

(This post was edited by Magpie on Sep 25 2007, 7:37pm)

Urambo Tauro

Sep 25 2007, 9:39pm

Post #2 of 5 (606 views)
Re: TRotK CR [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, he sounds just as excited as we are!

Magpie, do you have an archive of these messages? I'd like to see if I can "dig out" that release date! Laugh

(Say, when is this thing going to show up on Amazon.com? I searched for return king in music, and still can't find it. I'd like to get a pre-order in as soon as I can!)


Sep 25 2007, 9:58pm

Post #3 of 5 (592 views)
just follow the link in my original post [In reply to] Can't Post

someone on the forum's already dug it out. Fall 2008: if we assume that the rarities disc is released either in conjunction with Doug's book or as part of Doug's book which he said was due out Fall 2008.

other than that, no archive. but you can spend an hour or two reading through the pages and pages of the LOTR package update thread looking for his posts. :-) I have been trying to repost here for the last few ones so if you either browse movie's threads or my posts, you can find the most recent.

as for Amazon, I don't know. IIRC, it showed up at Barnes and Noble before Amazon for CR-TTT and, for awhile, it was cheaper. I think Amazon reduced its price to bring it in line with B&N.

If I get a heads up at moviemusic that it's showing up, I'll post here. It apparently has shown up Amazon's German site.

(This post was edited by Magpie on Sep 25 2007, 10:02pm)


Sep 27 2007, 4:05pm

Post #4 of 5 (917 views)
CR-ROTK update Sept 27, 2007 [In reply to] Can't Post

Posted by Doug Adams at moviemusic.comSept 27, 2007

Sorry if I haven't made this clear before but Doug quotes questions or comments posed by other posters and puts the between: >>>
So you'll see a cut and page quote from a poster (or perhaps more than one) and then Doug's response.

It looks like the hint(s) he was dropping that Urambo Tauro was curious about may be more extensive than we thought. Urambo, if you want to do some digging then you have to approach this with determination. Doug has been posting for some time (years is it now?) in the thread at moviemusic entitled, "LOTR package update". The link above takes you to the most recent posts as of today. Going backward, page wise, in that thread lets you see older posts. When you get to page one, post one, you'll find a link to the previous, archived thread. You can do that same thing with that thread. The original post of that thread also contains a link to a previous, even older, archived thread. I'm not sure how far back these go.

But there is a lot of stuff to wade through. When I'm looking specifically for Doug's posts, I might do it a few ways:

  • the site has it's own search function. But so many people write 'Doug' or 'Doug adams', you don't get just his posts up (you can't see a users post history there like you can here.
  • sometimes I'll use google's tool: Search only on current website. I can get more info on the page in a google search than on moviemusic's search function so I can more quickly eliminate hits w/o having to open them up.
  • My google tool bar will let me type a word into a search field. That word is displayed on the tool bar and I can do a page search for it. I'll sometimes go through the LOTR package update threads looking for 'adams'. It just jumps down the page for each instance. But again, lots of people type 'Adams' so you get a lot of false hits.
The pages load slowly on this site and looking through the pages and pages of posts can take a long time. I've stopped going back looking for stuff I remember reading because it takes too long. And that's one reason I've been reposting here. I can more easily reference it here than at moviemusic. Someone, early on, compiled all of Doug's posts in a Word doc but that's pretty old now.

and... sorry, I've spent 5 minutes trying to get a blank line inserted between paragraphs to make that quote below easier to read and, although I see blank lines in my compose window and I've gone in and compressed all the text and inserted fresh, new blank lines... it still won't show up in preview. I gotta give in on this one and move on.

Hi everyone,
>>>Oh Doug, glad you're back. And glad to hear the great updates as well. And also glad to hear you'll be deeply involved with the rarities stuff. Not as glad to hear it won't be a boxed set, but glad to assume this means it'll be released along with your book.>>>
The thing is, we don’t think a plain old boxed set would do the release justice, simply because this material is going to need explanation and contextualization. You’ll see what we have in mind. However, don’t let the lack of a “box” suggest a lack of quantity or shift in the elegance of the presentation. This will be right on par with the rest of the series, only physically different. But then, it’s a different type of material, yes? This is more archival and less story-driven.
>>>Thanks for a great update as usual and YES, I at least hope you'll be up for an ROTK podcast since it'll be some time before I get the CR itself (and I'm counting on the podcast music to tide me over 'til the CR's mine).>>>
Seems like most thumbs are up on the Podcast. A couple people have emailed great ideas. Keep ‘em coming! The suggestions certainly help.
>>>Greatly looking forward to it, Doug. And your usage of little-known English words. Out of curiosity: FotR's AS was 29 pages long (1,1 MB), the one for T2T 41 (6 MB). Apart from the instruments' section and the choral lyrics (which don't differ that much in length), was there so much more to write about T2T? Will you be aiming at a similar length (proportionate to the score's length, of course) for RotK?>>>
Good question. TTT was much longer because the score (as driven by the story) became much more complicated and involved. In Fellowship, there was generally one (maybe two) storylines occurring at any given moment. Two Towers scattered the characters all around Middle-earth. So not only did we need to spell out all the new material, we needed to delineate all these overlapping ideas. The crosscutting storylines meant that the leitmotifs got much more of a developmental workout.
ROTK, as of this current draft, is 51 pages. Now, that usually drops when WB streamlines the layout… meaning they incorporate their fonts, their margins… they never fiddle with the text.
There is a LOT of music to discuss, believe you me!
>>>You should know by now that we *never* run out of questions. Can we all send in video-taped questions? Or make a huge conference call?>>>
You know, that’s not a terrible idea. I may actually be able to set up a voicemail specifically for Podcast questions. Would that be something that would interest you guys?—Being able to call in and prerecord questions?
>>>All Best, Doug, and scratch up another pint for you (gee, that bill will be horrible!).>>>
I hope there’s going to be a designated driver!
>>>Q:Will there be,at the end(the end meaning just a few months away, right? ), more than 11 hours of music on discs?>>>
Are you including the rarities? If so, then there will be more than 11 hours.
>>>Anyone know if the complete recordings will include the singing from Merry and Pippen at the feast in the original movie and the orcs chanting Grond as they are marching toward Minis Tirith.>>>
Merry and Pippin: yes. Orcs: Oh dear, no!
>>>And Doug, by now you should know that we wouldn't even be against five podcasts
And I'm pretty sure Doug implied that the suggested release date for book/rarities was fall 2008.
"Maybe Santa can help you with all the above ..."
You sneaky little hobbit!>>>
Good eyes. That particular post was loaded with hints, btw. I put the “green” thing up front so that I’d lead with an obvious one and throw people off the scent a little. But there’s more there than meets the eye…
>>>It's clear that Doug, et al have finalized the choice to have all of the rarities on one CD. I agree that hearing variations on the same piece with minor instrumental differences would be repetitive to the point of boring. I'm also beyond grateful for the existence of the rarities, period.>>>
Actually, if the current plan is followed, the rarities / unused material will not be on one CD.
>>>I have a question, though, for Doug: Sifting out all of the variations in which the triangle plays once or three times, can all of the 'great' (or unique) rarities truly fit on one CD (less than 80 minutes)? I would think it would be longer. I can live with 'only' having one CD of 'deleted scenes', but it sure would have been nice to have a CR of the rarities, where 'complete' was defined as unique cut pieces, for example the Lothlorien piece that was a bonus track on the Two Towers CD several years back. That sounds so completely different from Shore's LOTR music.>>>
The intention is to include any piece that warrants interest. The rarities will be as complete as interest will bear. The triangle example is just being used to explain the type of thing that wont be used—i.e., *nearly* identical takes where the musical concept is essentially the same, though there are tiny variations in the details. But the archives are absolutely stuffed with alternate passages, entirely different concepts, unused songs, synth mock-ups, theme tests, all sorts of stuff!
>>>Also, Doug, are there any developments you might accidentally drop hints about re: the distant possibility of the written score being published? I 'might' recall a hint being dropped about a year ago that was 'not negative' on this issue. Ahem.>>>
There has been motion on this project and Howard is now working with a publisher to bring more of his (written) music to the public. This is a separate endeavor however; complete LOTR conductors scores are not to be a part of the book. The thing would be thousands and thousands of pages long!
>>>Diddo the possibility of the score being played live to the film. I know Shore was considering this a year ago (as discussed on this board). Are there any small or large developments toward this happening at some point?>>>
Large developments. Stay tuned!
>>>I tend to think that this ever so vaguely described "rarities disc" will neither be just one CD, nor a full CR. Instead, I think it will be something completely different, corresponding with Doug's book.
In fact, I'm almost convinced that the also ever so vaguely described "multimedia content" of the book and the rarities disc will be the same thing.
There may also exist the possibility that the multimedia thingy has the written orchestral scores in digital form, since Doug suggested, I think it was in the first thread, that releasing the written scores was not out of question.
As for the differentiation between a true alternate and a simple tweak in the music, I say this: if, to pick up Doug's example, the Cirith Ungol piece has an English Horn statement of the Ring theme over aleatoric strings, and the alternate (I suppose he means the current film version) is the same piece only without the Horn, then I think that does not qualify as a true alternate, but merely as a tweak in orchestration.
For me, a true alternate does really have to display a radical change in thematic identity, orchestration, or mood.
Oh, and Doug, am I right about the suggested release date being fall 2008?>>>
You, sir, are right about many things.
I will say this much… these LOTR projects have each proven themselves to be year-long endeavors. Remember way back when the idea of releasing all the CRs in the same year was floated around? Boy that dried up fast! It’s simply not possible. I think I’ve learned why so many releases get pushed into the market without much love or attention from their makers. Love and attention take a lot of time! I can’t tell you how lucky we’ve been to have Howard heading this up. The concept has never been, “Let’s get this thing done and on shelves and out of our hair!” It’s always, “Let’s do this right. Let’s let the quality dictate the timeframe.” That’s rare. Very rare. Doing something this way involves a huge number of people and a ton of resources. There are literally people all over the US working on this project right now. And often in the UK. And often in NZ.
So when I say it’s big—it’s a lot of work… believe me, I mean that on a global scale! I hope when all is said and done, people feel like it’s been worth it.
>>>He mentioned that basically all the music from the CR you also hear in the extended cut of the film. Is that right?
I thought there were a couple of outtakes, like the music for Gollum's transformation, the unused piece for Frodo in Mt. Doom and the destruction of Mordor?>>>
The compositions cut from the film will be in the CR, no worries.
Ok, that’s today’s post. See above and let me know what you thing of the Podcast w/ voicemail. I know it would be an overseas call for some of you, but hopefully a 1 minute call wouldn’t get too steep. And I suppose you could email an MP3 of yourself if need be.
Back to work!



Oct 2 2007, 4:31pm

Post #5 of 5 (594 views)
Prices have been posted at two retail outlet sites [In reply to] Can't Post

Two retail outlets are now posting prices for the CR-ROTK.

1) Moviemusic.com : this is the site that hosts the longstanding LOTR thread from which I quote and at which Doug Adams posts. - $69.73

2. Amazon.com : showing list price $74.98 - I suppose this might go down in time. The price is new today, as far as I know. I'm throwing my order to moviemusic for their support of the LOTR thread and the soundtrack community in general.

3. Barnes & Noble : their price has been competitive in the past but they haven't had nary a word about this recording. They have just redone their search engine. I know this because I've been referencing them and Amazon extensively the last few days in some soundtrack work I've been doing. A search for...
  • Complete Recordings Return of the King
  • Return of the King
  • Lord of the Rings
...all yield no results. (Even though they had yesterday) Now, that's just ridiculous. So I tried Howard Shore and finally got up some recordings. But if they're offering the CR-ROTK, it's not showing up on that page.

I *was* surprised to see they were offering the TTT-Limited Edition. I thought it was sold out. So I looked more closely and see the price is around $16 and there are 19 tracks. I'm sure this is the standard jewel case edition with the wrong photo. I then spent 15 minutes searching for a way to tell them they have the wrong cover photo and they apparently don't want to hear about it. There is no contact info to be found.

They just lost my business. I'm sure its unintentional but that is a serious mistake to show a more expensive out of print cover for a less expensive, commonly available product. And to have NO way to contact them to either verify or correct information is just unacceptable.


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