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squire
Half-elven
Dec 17 2011, 3:24am
Post #1 of 3
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** App. F – Languages and People of the Third Age ** 4. – Ents and Orcs: can a race be sentient without a language?
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ENTS
Well, on we go to the Ents. According to Prof. Tolkien, along with being called Onodrim and Enyd in (presumably – he doesn’t say it outright) Elvish, these tree-people are called Ents in the language of Rohan.
Wait, is Ent actually a Rohirric word? Just as Hobbit is a Westron word descended from a foreign tongue, so I thought Ent was Westron, not Rohirric. Treebeard’s introduction to the Hobbits, delivered in English-which-is-translated-from-Westron, begins with ‘well, I am an Ent, or that’s what they call me. Yes, Ent is the word.’ (LotR III.4) I always thought “they” referred to the whole outside world, not just the Riders of Rohan.
A. What do you think, is there another word for Ent in the language that is supposed to be the focus of this article: Westron?
The Ents credit the Eldar (Elves) with giving them the desire for speech, but they are said to have already had a language.
B. Is it possible for a people to have a language before they cared to speak it?
The description of the Ents’ language is comic in its technicality: “slow, sonorous, agglomerated, repetitive, indeed longwinded; formed of a multiplicity of vowel-shades and distinctions of tone and quantity… they had no need to keep it secret, for no others could learn it.”
C. Who suggested that they kept it secret – that is, why does Prof. Tolkien bring up the idea only to shoot it down again?
Secret language or impenetrable language notwithstanding, the Ents are “skilled in tongues, learning them swiftly and never forgetting them.”
D. Doesn’t one’s native language partly dictate one’s thought patterns, so that learning other languages would be almost insuperably difficult for a race whose own language is so purely strange that even the Elves cannot learn it?
Well OK, so they can learn other languages and then never forget them, Prof. Tolkien says so. Westron is one, obviously, since Treebeard chats quite amiably in the English of the translation. “But they preferred the languages of the Eldar, and loved best the ancient High-elven tongue [Quenya]”. And – wait for it – the long Entish-sounding malediction Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaerëa Lómëanor is not Entish at all, merely Quenya “strung together in Elf-fashion”!
E. Did you always think that was supposed to be a sample of Entish, like I did?
F. Why does our translator not give us some samples of Entish, rather than Elvish, in a discussion of the Ents and their language?
ORCS AND THE BLACK SPEECH
Now we move on to the Orcs, “this foul people”. Hey, once again it seems that Orc is the Rohirric word for them, not the Westron. Everyone – Gondorian, Elf, Dwarf, Hobbit, and Ent – who speaks of orcs in the English-translated-from-Westron turns out to be using a Rohirric word rather than one from the Common Speech.
G. Why?
In Sindarin Elvish, the word is orch. We know that Rohirric is descended from a more ancient form of the old Northwestern Mannish languages than Westron, which was heavily influenced by the Dunedain’s long association with the Eldar.
H. What then is the relationship of orch (Sind.) to orc (Roh.)? If the Elves coined their word first, did they really give it to Men who barely knew them, but who surely already knew the orcs from their own experience in the farther East of the old First Age world? Wouldn’t the Men have long since made up their own word instead?
I. Or – is the orcs’ own name for themselves, uruk, the actual source of the word?
Prof. Tolkien refuses to be pinned down, speculating only that the words are all “related”. He does add that uruk was “applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs” of the War of the Ring, bred by Sauron and Saruman. Uruk is from the Black Speech, which Saruman is nowhere said to have used or been influenced by.
J. Since they came from different masters with different programs and cultural influences, were the uruks of Mordor and Isengard really the same “breed”, deserving the same sub-racial name?
But hold the phone! Next we read that the orcs, from their beginning as creatures of Morgoth in the First Age, “had no language of their own, but took what they could of other tongues and perverted it to their own liking.” Hmm – even the Hobbits, descended (though not bred) from Men, originally had a language of their own. Even the Ents, who did not even speak for an Age of the world until the Elves intervened, originally had a language of their own.
J. An old question, but what exactly are these orcs with no language: a thinking and speaking race or not?
Since each sub-group or clan of orcs developed their own jargon, unintelligible to orcs of other places, these creatures adopted Westron as a Common Speech just as so many other races did. Although their vulgar usage made it “hardly less unlovely than Orkish”, Westron in fact became the native language of the orcs of the North and the Misty Mountains. Funny – according to what we’ve read so far, Westron had a distinct southern/coastal/Dunedain association, and had the least impact on the northern parts of these areas of Middle-earth.
L. Wait, what language is “Orkish” as mentioned in the quotation above?
We are told (see G. above) that even the word orc that Westron-speakers use is actually from a Northern Mannish language.
M. Why did those Misty Mountain and Mount Gundabad orcs not develop a patois from the Men who lived in the same Northern regions as they did - i.e., the Rohirrim, Beornings, Men of Dale, etc. who are mentioned as non-Westron-speakers in the earlier section of this Appendix?
We briefly review the Black Speech at this point. It was designed by Sauron to be the anti-Westron, the “language of all who served him”. Invented languages were first conceived during the Scientific Revolution around the 17th century, and became more popular as the new science of philology blossomed in the 19th century.
N. Was Prof. Tolkien inspired or horrified to discover that the demonic Dark Lord of Middle-earth had actually invented an entirely new language in a scientific fashion many ages earlier?
O. Was the Black Speech a practical effort to increase efficiency within Sauron’s Empire, or an essay in thought-control like Orwell’s totalitarian Newspeak?
P. Why did the Black Speech fail as a project, while Westron succeeded without anyone’s conscious efforts?
Gandalf knows the Black Speech and horrifies Elrond and the Elves when he speaks it aloud, evidently for the first time ever, in Rivendell at the Council of Elrond. This raises some interesting questions of provenance:
Q. Where did Gandalf learn it, if not from the Elves?
R. What are Prof. Tolkien’s sources for his knowledge of the Black Speech, if not from the Red Book or the associated Elvish manuscripts?
At the end of this section, there is a brief note that “Sharku in [the Black Speech] means old man.” This is an interesting cross-reference to a footnote in the “Scouring of the Shire” chapter, where Saruman laughs that his nickname in Isengard, “Sharkey”, was possibly a sign of affection; the note at the bottom of the page says “It was probably Orkish in origin: sharku, ‘old man’.
Orkish (also mysteriously referred to in L., above) is perhaps a generic term for the many mutually unintelligible orc-languages (!) which are said generally to be borrowed from other languages. So I feel we have to assume that the orcs did not ever simply speak the Black Speech, even though they were evidently ordered to at several points in the Second and Third Ages. That is to say, Orkish and the Black Speech are different languages.
S. So which is correct, this Appendix (sharku is Black Speech) or the footnote to the text (sharku is probably Orkish)?
TROLLS
We end today with a very weird little essay on the Trolls. To start with, troll is simply the best word available in English to render an Elvish term, torog. Although in Morgoth’s time they were “dull and lumpish” and spoke “no more language than beasts”, Sauron in his time had “increased their wits with wickedness.”
T. What level of speech is implied by “spoke no more language than beasts”, given the examples in the stories of beasts who speak like Sir Laurence Olivier?
Again, we have an imprecise description of the modern trolls’ version of grammar school: Sauron “taught them what little they could learn” but “trolls took such language as they could master from the orcs.”
U. Did Sauron teach them without using language, leaving that to the orcs; or did he first increase their wits, wait for them to learn language from the orcs, and only then go on to teach them the rest of their lessons?
“In the Westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech.” This can only be a reference to the interesting three trolls in The Hobbit, Bill Huggins, Tom, and Bert. Their speech in that book is rendered as rustic English slang with dialectic spelling worthy of a minstrel show. Again, as with the translator’s description of hobbit-Westron and other examples, he uses “debased” to imply linguistic inferiority.
V. How does the Trolls’ "debased" English-translated-from-Westron dialect in The Hobbit compare with the “free and careless” speech of rustics like the Gaffer and Farmer Maggot in The Lord of the Rings?
Finally, we learn about the appearance of the Olog-hai, a new kind of troll of great power and evil “cunning” – implying intelligence. The remarks that they were “bred” and “were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind” show that they were artificially conditioned, but it is unclear how they physically compare with the earlier trolls who were made of stone, as The Hobbit’s narrator and Treebeard assure us. We also learn that they could endure the sun, in contrast with the earlier race which the sun’s rays could turn back to stone; and that they truly and exclusively spoke the Black Speech, no doubt to Sauron’s delight.
W. Were the Olog-hai immortal? Did they have souls? Were they bred from the Ent-wives, “in mockery” of the Ents?
Professor Tolkien seems to be limiting his discussion of these fascinating races and their languages to topics that quite directly relate to his translated narratives.
X. Given the wealth of ancient and exotic information that he has had unique access to, shouldn’t he try to be more systematic?
Moving on: the Dwarves are up next.
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telain
Rohan
Dec 18 2011, 5:46pm
Post #2 of 3
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A. Perhaps, but maybe (like orch/orc) the two are rather similar
B. Yes. And I would say in Tolkien's mind as well. "Language" might be a loose translation -- almost a description of the character of a people/race of beings. I recall Legolas saying he would "listen to the Sun" (TT, can't remember the chapter); another example of the loose definition of 'language'.
C. I think it is a literary (and comedic) device for describing just how difficult the language would be for the non-Ent.
D. Interesting question. I wonder if Ents had/have been listening to so many people over the long years that they simply incorporated those tongues into their own consciousness.
E. No -- It always "sounded" Quenya to me.
F. He didn't want to create (yet another) language?! Not even Tolkien can understand Old Entish? It would have added 300 pages to already lengthy novel?
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sador
Half-elven
Dec 18 2011, 9:06pm
Post #3 of 3
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A. What do you think, is there another word for Ent in the language that is supposed to be the focus of this article: Westron?
I doubt it.
But perhaps "Ettin"? At least that might explain the 'Ettenmoors' of Rhudaur.
B. Is it possible for a people to have a language before they cared to speak it?
I suppose they had a certain codes of rumbles, but no formal language.
The description of the Ents’ language is comic in its technicality: “slow, sonorous, agglomerated, repetitive, indeed longwinded; formed of a multiplicity of vowel-shades and distinctions of tone and quantity… they had no need to keep it secret, for no others could learn it.” C. Who suggested that they kept it secret – that is, why does Prof. Tolkien bring up the idea only to shoot it down again?
He had to explain why even the Elves didn't speak it!
Aside: "slow, sonorous, agglomerated, repetitive, indeed longwinded" is awesome as a description of this appendix itself, don't you think?
D. Doesn’t one’s native language partly dictate one’s thought patterns, so that learning other languages would be almost insuperably difficult for a race whose own language is so purely strange that even the Elves cannot learn it?
Hmm.. perhaps. But I find that I can think in two quite different languages pretty fluently, if you get my drift.
E. Did you always think that was supposed to be a sample of Entish, like I did?
Yes, there are enough Us and Rs in it. But what do I know?
F. Why does our translator not give us some samples of Entish, rather than Elvish, in a discussion of the Ents and their language?
To make it sound more familiar?
G. Why?
Westron has "goblin".
H. What then is the relationship of orch (Sind.) to orc (Roh.)? If the Elves coined their word first, did they really give it to Men who barely knew them, but who surely already knew the orcs from their own experience in the farther East of the old First Age world? Wouldn’t the Men have long since made up their own word instead?
It might have been used by the Avari, who first taught men.
I. Or – is the orcs’ own name for themselves, uruk, the actual source of the word?
That's also plausible. But if the word was Rohirric, why didn't Tolkien write in "ork"?
J. Since they came from different masters with different programs and cultural influences, were the uruks of Mordor and Isengard really the same “breed”, deserving the same sub-racial name?
I suppose so. It sounds t convinient to be mere coincidence.
J. An old question, but what exactly are these orcs with no language: a thinking and speaking race or not?
They might have used the language of the Avari from the beginning.
L. Wait, what language is “Orkish” as mentioned in the quotation above?
I suppose Tolkien meant the Black Speech.
M. Why did those Misty Mountain and Mount Gundabad orcs not develop a patois from the Men who lived in the same Northern regions as they did - i.e., the Rohirrim, Beornings, Men of Dale, etc. who are mentioned as non-Westron-speakers in the earlier section of this Appendix?
All those migrated north from Rhovanion. I suppose the main influnce of the Northren Orcs were Arnor and Angmar.
N. Was Prof. Tolkien inspired or horrified to discover that the demonic Dark Lord of Middle-earth had actually invented an entirely new language in a scientific fashion many ages earlier?
O. Was the Black Speech a practical effort to increase efficiency within Sauron’s Empire, or an essay in thought-control like Orwell’s totalitarian Newspeak?
Yes.
P. Why did the Black Speech fail as a project, while Westron succeeded without anyone’s conscious efforts?
Tolkien the idealist!
Q. Where did Gandalf learn it, if not from the Elves?
O, Elrond knew it all right.
To say nothing of the crash-course he took during the first millenium of the Third Age.
R. What are Prof. Tolkien’s sources for his knowledge of the Black Speech, if not from the Red Book or the associated Elvish manuscripts?
According to The Hobbit, goblins are still about and at large. I'm sure Tolkien found something to go along with.
S. So which is correct, this Appendix (sharku is Black Speech) or the footnote to the text (sharku is probably Orkish)?
First, I agree with your analysis.
Second, it might be a simple enough woprd to become universal thhrouout orcdom.
T. What level of speech is implied by “spoke no more language than beasts”, given the examples in the stories of beasts who speak like Sir Laurence Olivier?
Ha!
But dp you have such beasts in The Lord of the Rings? I'm sure Gwaihir doesn't count, and the fox only thinks. Even Bill can't speak!
U. Did Sauron teach them without using language, leaving that to the orcs; or did he first increase their wits, wait for them to learn language from the orcs, and only then go on to teach them the rest of their lessons?
I don't know. But a troll classroom would be a riot!
V. How does the Trolls’ "debased" English-translated-from-Westron dialect in The Hobbit compare with the “free and careless” speech of rustics like the Gaffer and Farmer Maggot in The Lord of the Rings?
They cuss.
W. Were the Olog-hai immortal? Did they have souls? Were they bred from the Ent-wives, “in mockery” of the Ents?
I don't know, and I don't want to go there.
X. Given the wealth of ancient and exotic information that he has had unique access to, shouldn’t he try to be more systematic?
How many people read appendix D, and how many appendix F? Systems become boring and seem trivial. However, a good story is always a good story.
"The Appendices (and Prologue) gave Tolkien an outlet for explanations he couldn't fit into the text, and therefore made the text that much simpler and free of burdensome explanations. It's very hard for someone who creates a world from the ground up to refrain from overexplaining what he or she has created; the Appendices, and what is more the promise that someday The Silmarillion might be published, may have helped Tolkien exercise ruthless restraint."
- Curious
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