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IDLookout
Rivendell
Dec 8 2011, 5:04pm
Post #2 of 25
(512 views)
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I like it!
Bilbo, Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins,
He's only three feet tall.
Bilbo, Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins,
The bravest little hobbit of them all.
-Leonard Nimoy
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Dec 8 2011, 5:20pm
Post #3 of 25
(550 views)
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Thanks I've alays wondered if it was Accurate....
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I thought he should have Burst into Flames
even as he got close to the LAVA...The Heat would have killed him
as he hit the Flow.
We would seen him burned alive floating on surface
and then the Charded remains would just turn into Dust.
But I'm sure PJ wanted the Most dramtic way, and Less Grusome,
by having him dissapper into the Lava,
leaving the ring to finally melt.
A couple of non-ringers thought that was wrong,TOO!
xoxoBomby
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 8 2011, 6:34pm
Post #4 of 25
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Now I just need a relevant party conversation for me to whip this puppy out and amaze (or confound) all my friends! Or something.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 8 2011, 7:55pm
Post #6 of 25
(521 views)
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Of course showing it that way would have pushed the film into an R rating.
******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
an age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
an age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
no man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th Century
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IDLookout
Rivendell
Dec 8 2011, 8:33pm
Post #7 of 25
(485 views)
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The Ring was abnormally heavy and dense. I could see the ring sinking as the way to go.
Bilbo, Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins,
He's only three feet tall.
Bilbo, Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins,
The bravest little hobbit of them all.
-Leonard Nimoy
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 8 2011, 9:04pm
Post #8 of 25
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I thought it melted, rather than sank.
[In reply to]
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And the ring should not have sunk,
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Dec 9 2011, 2:15am
Post #10 of 25
(449 views)
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I also remember Peter specifically talking about this moment in the commentary or appendices. He talks about how he could have had Gollum writhe in pain and burst into flame, but they decided against it.
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Dec 9 2011, 2:49am
Post #11 of 25
(508 views)
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It's both. It starts to sink into the lava and, in the process, melts.
"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 9 2011, 6:45am
Post #12 of 25
(494 views)
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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telain
Rohan
Dec 9 2011, 1:24pm
Post #13 of 25
(424 views)
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I see the Ring being responsible for the "unreality" of this scene. It is trying to save itself, is it not?
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Dec 9 2011, 1:49pm
Post #14 of 25
(540 views)
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Wouldn't it be cool to see Gollum burst into flames while falling
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and then on impact with the lava just poof into ash.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 9 2011, 3:17pm
Post #15 of 25
(460 views)
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...it looks exactly like all the other magical rings falling into magical lava while being held by a 500 year old magically enhanced hobbit I've ever personally seen so I do have to grant it verisimilitude.
******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
an age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
an age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
no man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th Century
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shadowdog
Rohan
Dec 9 2011, 4:39pm
Post #16 of 25
(443 views)
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is that Gollum didn't jump into the lava after the ring had been thrown in like he says. 
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Gandalf'sMother
Rohan
Dec 9 2011, 8:30pm
Post #17 of 25
(450 views)
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The effect of falling into lava from a very high place. Would not the velocity of a person (or a Gollum) falling into lava, affect whether or not one sinks into it?
The "styrofoam" person test doesn't work, as he does not drop the person from on high...
In any event, I do think that the way Gollum hits the lava, stops, and then sinks into it is certainly unrealistic. But, of course, we are talking about Sauron's special lava, Sauron's special jewelry, a special being who has lived far beyond his years because of that special jewelry, and...well, you get the point.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Dec 9 2011, 8:32pm
Post #18 of 25
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we couldn't have had the added drama of Frodo hanging over the edge debating whether to give up or not, and being hauled back up by Sam....yeah, bursting into flames or ash would have been better.
Actually, I'm in favor of skipping the immolation altogether and sticking closer to the book here. I've never felt that the extension of the scene helped the drama of it. In fact, I think it messed up the pacing of a desperate close escape by making us wait too long for it, just as I feel the the Eowyn/Witchking scene suffers by being cut away from in the middle. I can understand why the filmmakers made both of those decisions, but I don't think they were entirely successful. Part of the impact of Tolkien's style is that when the action happens, it happens suddenly and leaves the reader in as much shock as the characters. I think the movies fell into a trap of trying to draw out the drama in order to justify the buildup and ended up diffusing the impact when they might have done better to stick to the shock-and-awe tactics like Gandalf's fall in Moria- and even then I think he hangs on for just a second or two too long. I vividly remember reading that chapter in the book and how I couldn't believe what I'd just read - he was there, he looked like he had won, he was gone....and what will we do now? Our general is dead, we don't know what to do next, we have hardly gotten started on the journey! I do think the movie scene of the Fellowship in shock just outside the East Gate of Moria captured that feeling beautifully. I wish some of my other favorite scenes had come across as well.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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Gandalf'sMother
Rohan
Dec 9 2011, 8:52pm
Post #19 of 25
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But then again, the LOTR films are an exercise in dragging out, or "milking" scenes that were poignant as they were in the books, and hacking down scenes that needed fleshing out.
It all feels almost backwards. Effective short scenes from the books are made long and diffuse in the films, and effective longer scenes from the books are shortened or excised altogether to make room for those elongations...
-GM
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Dec 9 2011, 11:09pm
Post #20 of 25
(426 views)
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I think the point of that scene is less about the shock of the ring being destroyed (as important as it may be) and more about Frodo choosing not to follow it down and accepting Sam's plea to not let go (and only then could the Ring be unmade). I think that's the more interesting thing to play, so I'm glad PJ approached the scene that way. Always keep the drama rooted in the characters. 
"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Dec 9 2011, 11:14pm)
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Gandalf'sMother
Rohan
Dec 9 2011, 11:42pm
Post #21 of 25
(506 views)
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Played it most interestingly.
Though PJ's version wasn't horrible...
-GM
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 10 2011, 2:50am
Post #22 of 25
(1288 views)
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that particular dilemma is not in Tolkien, only in the movie. In a nutshell, the filmmakers chose to portray the Ring's hold on its bearers as an addiction. Tolkien portrays it much more as a slavery; a spiritual possession. It's perhaps slightly ironic then, that in the movie, after establishing for three movies that Frodo could not give it up, they then had him do exactly that, and be a party to its destruction. Whereas in Tolkien's version, Frodo could not give up the Ring because it possessed him while he possessed it and could not will to destroy it, but when it was taken away and destroyed for him, he was himself again. He was wounded and broken, but no longer naked in the dark, no longer a slave. The loss of the Ring made him free.
'Well, this is the end, Sam Gamgee,' said a voice by his side. And there was Frodo, pale and worn, and yet himself again; and in his eyes there was peace now, neither strain of will, nor madness, nor any fear. His burden was taken away. There was the dear master of the sweet days in the Shire. 'Master!' cried Sam, and fell upon his knees. In all that ruin of the world for the moment he felt only joy, great joy. The burden was gone. His master had been saved; he was himself again, he was free.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Dec 10 2011, 4:28pm
Post #23 of 25
(426 views)
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With all that viscosity he mentions, maybe he slipped? //
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Lindele
Gondor
Dec 14 2011, 9:06pm
Post #24 of 25
(376 views)
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First, it is totally obvious that the gold ring turns into liquid.
Second, the ENTIRE 12 HOUR MOVIE is leading up to this...do you really think we wouldn't see the ring officially destroyed?
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Starhelm
The Shire
Dec 20 2011, 11:49pm
Post #25 of 25
(420 views)
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Considering that the ring cannot be undone in any way but to be cast into the lava of Orodruin, it would suggest to me that not only is the ring made in a very particular way, but it's possible that the lava is of a very particular kind. We are thinking that this lava is like our lava, but that logic doesn't apply to the ring itself. I am not a physics expert, and it would take a lot of thinking to really put Gollum's sinking into a solid fantasy scenario/science, but maybe the lava has a different kind of density which lends it the ability to pull a person under? That would seem to make sense--Sauron was a person of cunning, who used the One Ring to seduce and drown, so it would only make sense that the forge of Sauron would be built in a volcano with lava that can pull a person under.
And I completely realize this is probably a bit ridiculous and a shot in the dark, and we'll never really know, but at least it's a different way of thinking about it. :)
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