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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Bain Bardson in 'The Hobbit'?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Dec 1 2011, 10:51pm

Post #1 of 178 (3379 views)
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Bain Bardson in 'The Hobbit'? Can't Post

It seems that Bain, the son of Bard, will be included in the films. Actor Michael Fowler has allegedly been cast as the Tall Scale Double for the character: http://www.starnow.co.uk/michaelfowler82.

(Thanks to Carne for the tip!)

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 1 2011, 10:58pm)


Carne
Tol Eressea

Dec 1 2011, 10:55pm

Post #2 of 178 (2253 views)
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I'm jonas-jr over at IMDb by the way [In reply to] Can't Post

But thanks for posting this anyways! Wasn't really sure if I should or not.Smile


Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Dec 1 2011, 10:59pm

Post #3 of 178 (2234 views)
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No problem... [In reply to] Can't Post

If I'd known that you also posted here, I would have credited you for the link in the first place. Thanks for the tip.

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.


Bladerunner
Gondor


Dec 1 2011, 11:21pm

Post #4 of 178 (2249 views)
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How old do you suppose Baine will be portrayed in the movies? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the ROTK appendices Bain becomes king in 2977 which would be about 36 years after the events in The Hobbit. Luke Evans is only 32 so will Bain be about 12? If so, at 29, Michael Fowler is almost as old as Luke.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Dec 1 2011, 11:25pm

Post #5 of 178 (2255 views)
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I think that Bain will still be a young boy... [In reply to] Can't Post

Michael Fowler is alleged to be the scale double for Bain, not the primary actor. Tolkien apparently never indicated when Bain was born, so Jackson has a lot of leeway with his age.

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.


Bladerunner
Gondor


Dec 2 2011, 12:01am

Post #6 of 178 (2242 views)
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Ok, suddenly makes sense!.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Since a young boy would be about the height of a full dwarf, they need a normal height adult stand-in so as to appear as a young boy when standing next to the actors playing the dwarves when they are speaking. Then the dwarves' mini stand-ins could stand next to the actor who will actually play Bain when it is his turn to speak. Interesting....


Thorgal
Bree

Dec 2 2011, 12:37am

Post #7 of 178 (2159 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

this role will be about as big as gamling or Theodred.


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Dec 2 2011, 12:49am

Post #8 of 178 (2210 views)
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But serve more important purpose [In reply to] Can't Post

To flesh out Bard, that is.

<3 Gandy, Raddy, Sharkey, Ally & Pally <3


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Dec 2 2011, 12:51am

Post #9 of 178 (2194 views)
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So they'll be in the same scene(s)? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had thought Bard's potential wife & son would only appear in his own subplot.

<3 Gandy, Raddy, Sharkey, Ally & Pally <3


Bladerunner
Gondor


Dec 2 2011, 12:58am

Post #10 of 178 (2161 views)
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He probably will join with all of the revelers in the Great Hall after the dwarves make their dramatic entrance. [In reply to] Can't Post

The townsfolk become so excited because the King Under the Mountain has returned and I'm sure any young boy would want to be in the middle of all of the commotion and excitement and see the dwarves in person.


Thorgal
Bree

Dec 2 2011, 1:00am

Post #11 of 178 (2171 views)
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WHy... [In reply to] Can't Post

would bard have a sub plot exactly? And what exactly would it be about? I always imagined Bard would be the Eomer of Laketown, in conflict with the greedy master of laketown. I don't see how his son could be anything other than a theodred...

In the book Bard isn't a deep character, I would like them to keep him like he is in the book. Expanding on Bard which btw is a very uninteresting character...would be changing way too much of where the spotlight is suppose to be; on Bilbo and the dwarves. Laketown should be seen from their perspective, maybe a scene where Bard is arguing with the master of laketown...then he would lead laketown in the battle against Smaug in the same way Gandalf leads the defence of Minas Tirith.

Then he kills the dragon...which really means nothing and marches to the mountain to have one tiny speech about the treasure. I don't think there is need to expand his role and introduce his family, I mean he wasn't a big role in the book. Why change it? It was after all Bilbo that made it possible for Bard to kill Smaug. So there really doesn't need to be any back story to Bard. He is a puppet while Bilbo is the puppeteer.


EyeRock
Bree

Dec 2 2011, 1:17am

Post #12 of 178 (2170 views)
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I think they're going for something similar to Helmsdeep... [In reply to] Can't Post

They want to show what this new hero is fighting for. Remember the scenes with the kids, women and old people at Helmsdeep? Without those the defense of Helmsdeep would feel kind of hollow in my opinion; "why did they need Helmsdeep anyway?"
Showing Bard as a considerate father would make him more than "the hero destined for greatness", a role that Aragorn already filled in LOTR. It would make his character more realistic and easier to relate to. He isn't opposing the Master of Laketown out of "honour", "rightousness" or "justice". He wants what's best for the families of Laketown, his inculded!


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Dec 2 2011, 1:38am

Post #13 of 178 (2155 views)
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Neither was Beorn [In reply to] Can't Post

but at least Bard has a past that an be drawn from Tolkiens own writings, He goes on to be the future King of Dale, as does his son after him. His son was present at the council of Elrond when the fellowship was forged. Bard has a much richer history and future than some of the other characters in the Hobbit, Which is exactly why he should be given a bit of a bigger role. He does kill Smaug which if not for that there would have been no battle of the 5 armies because Bilbo and the dwarfs would have been Barbeque and Smaug would still reign under the mountain. I mean theres the whole issue with Bard having differences with the master of Laketown and then reforming Dale after the Battle of 5 armies. Jackson needs to make the audience have some emotional interest in Bard with him being the one who kills Smaug and is King of Dale who aids the dwarfs in their time of need.


Bladerunner
Gondor


Dec 2 2011, 1:44am

Post #14 of 178 (2155 views)
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As a descendant of Girion of Dale, Bard has more in common with Thorin than most. [In reply to] Can't Post

Lord Girion and King Thror were likely well acquainted during more prosperous times and were probably friends before Smaug destroyed their kingdoms, so Bard and Thorin would presumably have plenty to discuss during Thorin's extended stay in Lake-town. Perhaps Bard will pull Thorin aside at some point and have words with him. The movie revealing and exploring this connection would make the tension between them later in the film more compelling.

With his tragic lineage, premonitions, grim nature and persona non grata status, family, destiny, noble nature and leadership during times of trouble, I think Bard is a very interesting character even though Tolkien chose not to reveal much about him in the book. I like the direction in which the film is taking him. In the film, Peter Jackson can afford to dwell a little more on the time the dwarves spent in Lake-town than Tolkien did in the book.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Dec 2 2011, 1:52am

Post #15 of 178 (2128 views)
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Totally Agree [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Dec 2 2011, 2:04am

Post #16 of 178 (2118 views)
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It could be kind-of cool... [In reply to] Can't Post

If Bilbo and Bain bond in a "Pippin and Bergil" kind-of way, with Bard acting as Beregond towards Bilbo and Thorin. Thst would extent Bard's role in the story somewhat during the Laketown segment of Film 2...

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, with axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Dec 2 2011, 2:07am

Post #17 of 178 (2196 views)
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I hated those scenes [In reply to] Can't Post

They were gratuitous and "stock" - as in "stock clip of women and children crying."

I never believed for a second that those people were in danger, and it didn't enhance the scenes' impact at all.

I agree with Thorgal. Keep Bard simple. He's an archetype, and shouldn't be "deepened." Bilbo and the dwarves are the important ones.

-GN


(This post was edited by Gandalf'sMother on Dec 2 2011, 2:10am)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Dec 2 2011, 2:37am

Post #18 of 178 (2142 views)
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While I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo and the dwarfs are the main concern, they will be showing other characters and other plot lines. I think Laketown will be expanded upon what we seen in the book along with Bard's role in the films. PJ is gonna go for a character driven death of Smaug and the best way to do that is to have your audience invested in Bard who is the one who kills him. the film makers are going to want you rooting for Bard instead of not giving a crap one way or the other, because you already know Bard is going to kill Smaug. They are going to want people thinking to themselves, YES!!!! when Bard lets that last black arrow fly, killing Smaug. to just show him as an uninteresting character will not get people emotionally invested in him, but showing him as a family man, as well as the ever pessimistic prophet that he is in the book. from what they show in the book with Bilbo giving Bard the Arkenstone, they should expand Laketown to show that Bilbo feels he can trust Bard to do what is right, and know that he is a good but somber man who only has his peoples best intentions in mind.


Thorgal
Bree

Dec 2 2011, 2:45am

Post #19 of 178 (2142 views)
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Oh my [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Jackson needs to make the audience have some emotional interest in Bard with him being the one who kills Smaug and is King of Dale who aids the dwarfs in their time of need.

As I said Bard is just a puppet, no spotlight should be put on him. He isn't a major character but a minor, even if he kills the dragon it's Bilbo that is in the spotlight. He is a puppet in the book and should remain to be only a puppet in the movie, his only purpose is to want the people of laketown or dale or whatever to have a piece of the treasure. His motives and future isn't important. To me he is about as important as Eomer is in the movies. He is this symbol of Rohan, nothing more nothing less. I think Bard should have a similar role, symbol for the people of laketown nothing more nothing less.


Quote
Bard has a much richer history and future than some of the other characters in the Hobbit

Not if you compare to:

Thranduil
Beorn

In fact in the hobbit (book). Thranduil and Beorn had a bigger role than Bard. If I'm not mistaken Bard is first introduced when Smaug attacks. His history is unimportant, he is just a figure to represent the people of dale at the battle of the five armies.


Quote
Perhaps Bard will pull Thorin aside at some point and have words with him. The movie revealing and exploring this connection would make the tension between them later in the film more compelling.

Should this be considered fan fic?

Quote
With his tragic lineage, premonitions, grim nature and persona non grata status, family, destiny, noble nature and leadership during times of trouble, I think Bard is a very interesting character even though Tolkien chose not to reveal much about him in the book.

Maybe Tolkien didn't reveal anything in the book about him because he didn't want to put the spotlight on him but on Bilbo? I agree with Tolkien...fan fiction in the form of making unimportant characters important is...not ok.

Quote
If Bilbo and Bain bond in a "Pippin and Bergil" kind-of way, with Bard acting as Beregond towards Bilbo and Thorin.

That is...I'm sorry but how would this make the hobbit better? This is bad fan fiction. Sorry if I'm offending.

Quote
I agree with Thorgal. Keep Bard simple. He's an archetype, and shouldn't be "deepened." Bilbo and the dwarves are the important ones.

Quoted for truth...


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Dec 2 2011, 3:39am

Post #20 of 178 (2091 views)
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I was comparing Bard [In reply to] Can't Post

to Beorn. Beorn gives them some ponies, supplies, feeds them and sends them on their way and then pulls a basically dead Thorin out of the battle. where as Bard fights in the battle just as much as Beorn, kills Smaug, and is a lost king of Dale. how is that not more important than Beorn? beorn didn't even warrant any real stories in Tolkiens notes about who he was or even what happened to him after other than he led the woodsmen between the Anduin river and Mirkwood and died before the war of the ring. Bard became king and restored Dale and had a whole lineage that Tolkien himself wrote


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Dec 2 2011, 3:40am)


Bauglir100
Bree

Dec 2 2011, 3:40am

Post #21 of 178 (2155 views)
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Wow. Just wow. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
They were gratuitous and "stock" - as in "stock clip of women and children crying."

I never believed for a second that those people were in danger, and it didn't enhance the scenes' impact at all.


I just can't believe how far you people are willing to go to complain about the LOTR movies. First there are all those whining about Legolas' shield-boarding stunt (an over-the-top action sequence in a fantasy movie? Do tell!), then there's the people that will complain about ROTK's ending going on for too long (understandable, but then again, I read the book!) and now...
We've finally reached the bottom of the barrel.


(This post was edited by Altaira on Dec 2 2011, 3:48am)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Dec 2 2011, 4:02am

Post #22 of 178 (2072 views)
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Yeah, actually you are... [In reply to] Can't Post

Feel free to comment on my or anyone else's ideas all you want, but calling them "bad fan-fic" is condescending and rude.

Secondly, as I've said before, steadfastly refusing any changes to the course material just because "that's how it was in the book" isn't very practical. Bard being deepened into a fully-rounded character rather than a "puppet", as you call him, not to mention a proto-Aragorn, will most likely come across as more cinematic that the guy who randomly materializes out of nowhere at a vital moment in the book, and help add weight to the segments of the film concerning Laketown, Smaug, and the Battle of Five Armies.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, with axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Dec 2 2011, 4:06am)


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Dec 2 2011, 4:10am

Post #23 of 178 (2141 views)
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OK everybody, I'm going to state my position very very clearly.....(as this debate is slightly getting on my nerves! ;) ) [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I partly understand where some of these views about Bard being a relatively minor character are coming from, these arguments still have little merit to me.

My points:

Bard and his family were ESSENTIAL to the history of Esgaroth and the Human lands in Dale, and around it.

Bard in my opinion had a terrific role in The Hobbit. He didn't -just- slay the dragon!!!! He wasn't -just- a bowman!!!
He immediately took up leadership of all the men of that region. He became a -significant- diplomat and representative (conversing intimately with Thranduil and Gandalf etc.) He descended from the the line of King Brand of Dale.
It might seem obvious, but his actions were crucial to the book.

You all no doubt are well aware of all these things, but I think we are underplaying the impact that Bard had in the goings on during the Hobbit......and please please remember, that this film is of course centred around the core plot and text of the book, but -also- works -around- it and outside of it!!!!! Smile

Bard may be an archetype, but I think there is lots of area for expansion for PJ & Co....though I doubt they will expand him -that- much to be honest.......as I'm trying to suggest, Tolkien said -much- more about him than we are giving credit for....(I think)


I dont know why, but I also have a hefty suspicion that Tauriel's love will be Bard............(I dont rly care who or if they;ll pick anyone for her in the end anyway.......) (now that I think about it, its been Veeeeery long since her name appeared on the boards!!! ......hmmmmm suspicious! Wink) (kidding)


:)


The Five Isari:

Sarry, Gandy, Raddy, Ally and Pally

A great bunch :)







(This post was edited by Xanaseb on Dec 2 2011, 4:13am)


Thorgal
Bree

Dec 2 2011, 4:17am

Post #24 of 178 (2056 views)
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Bard... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Beorn gives them some ponies, supplies, feeds them and sends them on their way and then pulls a basically dead Thorin out of the battle.

He may not be more important as a individual, Bard becomes king and may be considered to be more important. But Beorn is a more important character in the story, he is a more important character in the context of the storyline.

He shelters the dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf for how many days was it? He is a lone goblin hunter and is friend with many animals. He sends the party with supplies for their journey through mirkwood. Later he turns the entire battle by taking his bear form and killing the goblin king/leader whatever it was at the time. He also saves Thorin one of the most important charcters in the story. Compare Beorns role and character to the:

Man with a bow, that takes arms when Smaug attacks. A crow whispers in his ear where to shoot and he fires a accurate arrow that kills the dragon. He represents the people of laketown at the metting up the mountain. He later become the leader over that small town.

Beorn is not only a more important character to the dwarves bilbo and Gandalf, he also turns the entire battle by charging in what I think will be a Balrog sized bear...he is far more interesting that the little princling bowman that shoots an arrow in the dragon. I'm a bit of an anarchist myself and can't stand bowmen...I'm not sure why but when I think of Bard I think of:

Orlando Bloom in Troy

I just don't like the idea of a human hero in this story, and you said he was grim? We already got Beorn the grumpy bear. No need for a grumpy human. Beorn can't be a minor character...they can't just meet a man that can turn into a bear. But they can see a random man shoot smaug and be declared leader...Bard doesn't need a backstory, Beorn does...


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Dec 2 2011, 4:17am

Post #25 of 178 (2105 views)
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Only some TORners take those views......not that many to my knowledge ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

I for one certainly don't think PJ & Co. went OTT :) :)

TORn is a very diverse mix of Tolkien fans, as you probably know, so don't think that your comment is generalisable :) :)

but yeah I agree :)


The Five Isari:

Sarry, Gandy, Raddy, Ally and Pally

A great bunch :)






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