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Maiarmike
Hithlum
Nov 23 2011, 12:31am
Post #26 of 47
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Lost remnants of the bridge film.
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I must confess it would be fascinating to see a lot of the comings and goings of characters between the time of The Hobbit and LotR, including Aragorn. Unfortunately, things just didn't work out due to the richness of the story of The Hobbit, but they could have done a 3rd film after the two Hobbit films, I suppose. Too expensive and time consuming though. I think the Dol Guldur subplot was originally intended for the bridge film, along with the White Council stuff, but that's probably the only surviving bit from the bridge idea, only because it occurs at the same time as The Hobbit, making it easy to work it into the movies.
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 23 2011, 2:15am
Post #27 of 47
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Or, rather, although I might put it more calmly, I totally agree that the film should be entirely about Bilbo and his adventures, and not be thought of as a LotR Middle-earth reunion/prequel. I would like to know who the other voices and characters are that are featured in the book, rather than whether we are going to see X or Y from LotR again. A few disagreements: I actually would prefer that the spiders speak, as they do in the book; and I am very upset about this Tauriel, no matter how well she is written, because of the production mindset her casting reveals.
squire online:
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Nov 23 2011, 3:29am
Post #28 of 47
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Speaking of characters not in the book
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who is Bolbo?
Seriously though if I understand you correctly, you are not crazy about cast additions, especially if they are characters brought in from LOTR who played no part in The Hobbit ? But you are okay if there are no talking animals?
The trolls in LOTR did not speak (not because they had been turned to stone either). Won't it be odd then if Bilbo's Trolls speak?
Okay enough trollish behaviour from me...
You got me thinking about the White Council stuff, about being okay with its inclusion because it explains where Gandalf went. Still it has the potential to make this an entirely different story than one about a hobbit named Bilbo.
When Bilbo wrote his tale at Rivendell in Lord of the Rings, it is assumed in both book and movies that he did not write about Gandalf's doings while he, Thorin and company were lost in Mirkwood.
Then again, in the movie-verse I suppose it could be assumed that the book Bilbo writes at Rivendell in LOTR could be the story we see in The Hobbit movies, rather than the actual book many of us have on our shelves and nightstands as is believed about the book he wrote in The Lord of the Rings (books).
(This post was edited by dernwyn on Nov 23 2011, 6:13pm)
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Sinister71
Dor-Lomin
Nov 23 2011, 3:59am
Post #29 of 47
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well according to Tolkien himself there are multiple types of trolls in middle earth (6 to be exact) and 2 of those are according to Tolkien are capable of speaking. The troll from LOTR was a cave troll one of the lowest forms of trolls by Tolkiens standards and the Olog Hai which were the troll equivalent to the Uriks. The Olog Hai could speak but according to Tolkiens myth the rarely did and only spoke the Black speak of Mordor since they were created by Sauron, the other kind of troll that could speak according to Tolkien was the stone troll which were the type that Bilbo came across on his journey. They could speak, and used a debased form of Westron or if you will a version of Cockney English...which they only showed one cave troll who are unable of speech per Tolkien, a few mountain trolls which are also uncapable of speech and one Olog Hai who was in battle with Aragorn in ROTK and had no chance to speak. So in truth its very possible that Bilbo's trolls can talk which in all honesty they should, it could be a rather humorous scene until they start popping dwarfs into sacks when the action begins...
and I don't give a crap I only mis-spelled Bilbo once... Bolbo is not that far off...  only one key LOL
and i think they will change the writing of the book to be at Bagend, I think we will see Bilbo writing before his Birthday party and the hobbit movie will be a flashback. gives the Frodo and Old Bilbo being in the movie as bookends rumor a bit of bite to it
(This post was edited by sinister71 on Nov 23 2011, 4:02am)
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Marillë by the Sea
Ossiriand
Nov 23 2011, 5:16am
Post #30 of 47
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I never worried that Aragorn will make his way into The Hobbit, but it's nice to get a "confirmation". And as much as I would like to see more of Middle Earth, I'd rather save that for any future bridge films and focus on The Hobbit instead of LOTR reunions. IMO, Frodo, Legolas, and Galadriel returning (who aren't mentioned in the book) are more than enough.
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Hanzkaz
Nargothrond
Nov 23 2011, 7:53am
Post #31 of 47
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destroys the ambiguity of his first meeting with Frodo.
They don't learn about 'Aragorn' until later.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Nov 23 2011, 8:09am
Post #32 of 47
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Butterbur says Rangers are "dangerous folk" and we want to believe that (for a while). And I see nothing to gain and everything to lose (not least focus on the Hobbit story) by mentioning Aragorn at all.
Join us in the Reading Room as we discuss the LotR Appendices! The real stories behind the Numenorians, Rohirrim, Elves, and Dwarves!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Gandalf'sMother
Nargothrond
Nov 23 2011, 8:39am
Post #33 of 47
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But this is good news. Legolas' and Frodo's inclusion are already creating a sense of Lucas-style character reunion prequel, and that should be avoided as much as possible. Here's to hoping Legolas' role is very lean.
-GM
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 23 2011, 1:27pm
Post #34 of 47
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When would Galion encounter Gandalf?
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There and Back Again won't open until December 2013, I imagine that some of the final casting announcements won't be made official for a while yet.
I know Peter Jackson played with the timeframe for the LOTR movie trilogy but I mean at the time of the Hobbit events which is mainly what these 2 films will encompass Aragorn was like 10 years old (born in 2931 and Bilbo went to Erebor in 2941 YEP thats 10) I wouldn't complain with a dark haired 10 year old boy called Estel doing a cameo around Rivendell and I don't think Viggo would be able to pull that off.
It's because of the way that Jackson played with Tolkien's timeline that we are unlikely to see a ten year-old Estel. It can be argued that Aragorn revealed his age to be eighty-seven in March 3002, moving his year of birth to as early as 2915. He could be twenty-five or older at the time of The Hobbit.
A couple other things for me anyways the spiders don't need to talk, they can illustrate their emotion well enough without speaking, Remember Shelob? the Thrush its stated in the book can only be understood by Bard, The Wargs do NOT need to talk, they worked just fine in The Two Towers without talking. Beorn's animals will just look fine NOT talking and acting a bit more natural like for MY taste ( I like the historically realistic look of LOTR not some cartoony Narnia version of middle earth) Galion in my opinion does't even need to talk, maybe show Gandalf of talking to him but not hearing him talking is fine with me also.
The Wargs and Beorn's animal friends didn't speak in the book either. Gandalf could understand the Wargs, but not Bilbo or the Dwarves. And Beorn could understand his animals in their own tongues. Why are you bringing Galion into this? He is Thranduil's wine steward; he never meets Gandalf in the book and the only persons he speaks to are other Wood-elves. It's a good part for injecting some humor into the proceedings and there's no good reason to eliminate his dialogue.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 23 2011, 6:19pm
Post #36 of 47
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So, no. ;)
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
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Sinister71
Dor-Lomin
Nov 23 2011, 11:20pm
Post #38 of 47
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was looking at Galions name when typing I meant Gwaihir who was the lord of the eagle in the third age and also the eagle from the LOTR who rescued Gandalf from the top of Isengard and helped Sam and Frodo off of Mount Doom. but he still doesn't need to talk so that we hear him. maybe see him off in the distance with Gandalf but I just have a thing with talking animals its Tolkiens middle earth for gods sake not Narnia and in the Hobbit book yes the Wargs did speak go back and re read cause they did. they were conversing with the gobblins chasing the dwarfs up the trees
(This post was edited by sinister71 on Nov 23 2011, 11:26pm)
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MrCere
Sr. Staff
Nov 24 2011, 12:06am
Post #39 of 47
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Not sure what God had to do with it
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I think it was clearly a decision by the writers made long ago when the bridge film was abandoned.
I have no choice but to believe in free will.
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The cake is a lie
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 24 2011, 1:40am
Post #40 of 47
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The Wargs spoke their own language...
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I don't need to re-read the chapter, I am very familiar with it. The Wargs can be understood by the goblins and by Gandalf, but they do not speak in a language that is understandable to Bilbo or the Dwarves. The only animals in the book that use some form of Westron (the common tongue) are the Eagles, the giant spiders and some of the ravens of Erebor. Then, of course, there are the three trolls and Smaug, but the trolls are roughly humanoid and Tolkien's dragons can't be considered to be normal animals.
...I just have a thing with talking animals its Tolkiens middle earth for gods sake not Narnia
I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, we are discussing Tolkien's Middle-earth. And, in Tolkien's Middle-earth, there are animals that talk. That is how Prof. Tolkien wrote it, so I don't see your problem.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
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Sinister71
Dor-Lomin
Nov 24 2011, 4:59pm
Post #41 of 47
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it doesn't fit in with the reality based middle earth that PJ has created with LOTR, which the Hobbit is going to be the same world but have different edge to it. I can't remember where I read it but it was shortly after DelToro left the film (thank god) but PJ said somewhere that talking animals, which includes spiders, didn't really fit,in whats already been set up with his middle earth and he addressed the same thing you said, which I agree with, that Smaug was no mere animal and capable of intelligent speech
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 24 2011, 5:54pm
Post #42 of 47
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You didn't state your objection as being based on the previous films...
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In the post that I was replying to, you objected that talking animals didn't fit into Tolkien's world, while saying nothing about Jackson's film continuity--which is a completely different kettle of fish. You are welcome to your opinion that talking animals don't fit the tone that Jackson set in the previous movies, but I retain the right to believe that they can be made to work without straining the suspension of disbelief of most filmgoers. No offense intended (we're all friends here, I hope), but if it doesn't past muster with you, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 24 2011, 5:55pm)
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Sinister71
Dor-Lomin
Nov 24 2011, 6:55pm
Post #43 of 47
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Tolkien wrote the Hobbit as a childrens tale hence the talking animals, but once he went to LOTR, a more mature tale, Shelob did not speak. since Peter Jackson has already done the LOTR film trilogy it would make sense that he stay in the same world he created and NOT have talking animals... I mean that is my own personal preference but if they are talking I'll live with it. I'm pretty easy to get along with really heck I know people who have gotten married over their love of Tolkien, well Tolkien literature brought them together anyways LOL but I just think if they are gonna make the movies the need to keep them in the same middle earth they already created like I said just my opinion
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 24 2011, 7:03pm
Post #44 of 47
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Shelob apparently did speak to Gollum...
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He convinced her to let him go the first time he encountered her. Also, Gwaihir and his brethren Eagles retained their power of speech in Tolkien's LotR, even though it wasn't demonstrated in the films. Of course, the Eagles could be considered a special case, being messengers for the Valar.
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.
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Sinister71
Dor-Lomin
Nov 24 2011, 7:24pm
Post #45 of 47
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I agree about at least Gwaihir being the lord of the eagles having a bit more stature than the others being able to talk but I really don't need to hear them speak either,I think it adds a bit of mystery about them if they Don't speak anyways. esp with Bilbo maybe looking at him like he's a fat little rabbit LOL I'm not sure if Shelob spoke or she just understood Gollum in Tolkien's own appendixes he says she didn't speak. But she apparently was able to at least understand Gollum because he struck a deal with her. so it does get a bit complex I guess
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Nov 24 2011, 9:06pm
Post #46 of 47
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Still, no speaking animals in the movies.
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Although movie-Gollum clearly had in mind delivering the hobbits to Shelob, there is no suggestion that the two had "struck a deal". The closest the movies came to animal communication was Gandalf's use of the Moth to summon the Eagles (twice, apparently, as the Moth also appeared at the Morannon).
It will be interesting to see how Jackson handles this issue in TH.
Join us in the Reading Room as we discuss the LotR Appendices! The real stories behind the Numenorians, Rohirrim, Elves, and Dwarves!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Sinister71
Dor-Lomin
Nov 24 2011, 10:12pm
Post #47 of 47
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in the book Elizabeth. Jakson never touched on that but in the books Gollum was ensnared by Shelob and he struck a deal with her to lure victims into her lair if she let him go
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