|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mybear
Bree
Oct 4 2011, 10:42pm
Post #1 of 34
(2089 views)
Shortcut
|
|
What will the Battle of Dol Guldur be like?
|
Can't Post
|
|
I think it will consist of lothlorien attacking with legolas and galadriel in charge while gandalf and radagast do recon.
What are your ideas?
|
|
|
Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Oct 5 2011, 12:06am
Post #2 of 34
(1450 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Don't think there will be one, honestly.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
If there is a confrontation, I suspect it will be more magic influenced, with perhaps Gandalf, Galadriel, Radagast, Elrond, and Saruman taking part in a confrontation with the Necromancer.
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
|
|
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Oct 5 2011, 12:25am
Post #3 of 34
(1394 views)
Shortcut
|
I suspect that Jackson will not resist the urge to make another big battle. Still, maybe he will realize that he has been there and done that, and that it would be better to do something different. A contest of wills between the White Council and Sauron the Necromancer could, if subtly done, be truly fascinating. I just don't know if Jackson has that in him.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
|
|
|
Demosthenes
Sr. Staff
Oct 5 2011, 1:41am
Post #4 of 34
(1381 views)
Shortcut
|
|
problem with physical confrontation scenario
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I suspect that Jackson will not resist the urge to make another big battle. Still, maybe he will realize that he has been there and done that, and that it would be better to do something different. A contest of wills between the White Council and Sauron the Necromancer could, if subtly done, be truly fascinating. I just don't know if Jackson has that in him.
It's a pretty big one, I reckon, too:
Jackson has written himself into a corner with the Sauron as stupid floating eyeball concept.
Unless he abandons internal consistency, (which seems unlikely to me, but stranger things have happened) I'm not sure how he's going to manage a Dol Guldur confrontation that's physical.
OTOH, Tolkien clearly states that Sauron anticipated the White Council's stroke and had made preparations to withdraw into the east... so ... Sauron may actually be long gone by the time the White Council arrives at Amon Lanc and just have left a token force behind...
AFAIKR, even Rings of Power isn't much more specific than that ... so there's lots of leeway for invention.
TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and HOF moderator
----
Words With Pictures
|
|
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Oct 5 2011, 1:53am
Post #5 of 34
(1411 views)
Shortcut
|
The floating eyeball (silly as it was) isn't really the problem. The LOTR films never really actually said that the eyeball WAS Sauron; it could have just been a devise that he used to see far (I'm ignoring the panicky looks that it gave). The bigger problem is Saruman's statement that he could not yet take physical form. On the other hand, Jackson made it clear in the early Empire interview with him and GdT that they were planning to have extensive backstory for Sauron, and Cumberbatch has explicitly confirmed that he will be doing dialog for the Necromancer. So Sauron/Necromancer will have some kind of physical presence in the films. And from a dramatic standpoint, it doesn't make sense for him to be completely withdrawn from Dol Guldur before the White Council makes its move; that would be boring. Plus, Tolkien specifically states that it required the devises of Saruman to drive him out of Dol Guldur. There is a real possibility for some subtle interplay here. But Jackson has never shown that subtlety is a strong point of his.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Oct 5 2011, 1:55am
Post #6 of 34
(1438 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Long term trench warfare (Like WW I)
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Over the top, boys! This will hold until the Eagles get organized and bomb the stuffins out of the Orcs...er Goblins & their allies the Wargy-wolves and Necro-sauron hoodie warin' minions..
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Oct 5 2011, 1:58am)
|
|
|
Demosthenes
Sr. Staff
Oct 5 2011, 2:03am
Post #7 of 34
(1346 views)
Shortcut
|
|
you're correct (i hate these subject lines)
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
> The bigger problem is Saruman's statement that he could not yet take physical form.
You're right, of course, but I was thinking that the repeated visual of the eyeball sticks in the mind more than a single line of dialogue. The idea that it could be some "magical" device is an interesting one... and may offer a way out.
Also, Saruman could be mistaken.
Or could be deceiving Gandalf? (was it directed to Gandalf?) His reliability at that point of the story is not exactly high...
Though there's a causality issue there if either Gandalf or Saruman (or any of the council were to see Sauron as Necromancer at Dol Guldur)
> But Jackson has never shown that subtlety is a strong point of his.
Prefers to use Grond to crack walnuts.
TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and HOF moderator
----
Words With Pictures
|
|
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Oct 5 2011, 2:27am
Post #9 of 34
(1354 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Maybe Jackson will show that he has grown as a filmmaker
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
We can only hope! (And I hate the subject lines, too.)
I do hope that he does not feel too constrained by the needs of "consistency". After all, as Ralph Waldo Emerson famously stated, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
|
|
|
Maiarmike
Grey Havens
Oct 5 2011, 2:46am
Post #10 of 34
(1353 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The eye wasn't Sauron himself.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It was just a spiritual manifestation, since he's not physically walking around, but in spirit only. At least that's how I perceive it. I look at it as the Eye of Sauron, not Sauron the Eye. 
"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
|
|
|
lurtz2010
Rohan
Oct 5 2011, 3:13am
Post #11 of 34
(1279 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Maybe he meant he can't take physical form since his Necromancer days?//
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
|
|
|
Eruonen
Half-elven
Oct 5 2011, 4:59am
Post #12 of 34
(1337 views)
Shortcut
|
|
One image from the LOTR when Orthanc is crumbling the "eye"
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
shows the iris assume a human shape with a struggling figure before it blows out like a supernova.
The Dol Gulder episode will be a key part of the movies but it merely sets the stage for the later LOTR actions.
Dol Gulder was reoccupied by the Nazgul not long after Sauron fled to Mordor - ahead of the White Council arrival...he foresaw...hmm, the Palantir of Saruman?
|
|
|
Flagg
Tol Eressea
Oct 5 2011, 12:27pm
Post #13 of 34
(1231 views)
Shortcut
|
Do you know of any films which depict a confrontation of this sort? It sounds quite abstract, and I'm having difficulty imagining what it might look like.
|
|
|
Flagg
Tol Eressea
Oct 5 2011, 12:36pm
Post #14 of 34
(1222 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I expect some variety of battle
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Voronwe's suggestion of a more immaterial confrontation is interesting but hard to envision. What I really don't want to see is yet another epic battle with legions of computer-generated Elves laying siege to Dol Guldur while battling throngs of computer-generated Orcs – we have had enough of those to last a lifetime. Perhaps some sort of compromise would be best – think of the duel between Gandalf and Saruman in Orthanc. It's pure drama – the actors' performances carry every moment. Something like that, but on a larger scale (and minus the breakdancing), could be a very good way to enact the Dol Guldur confrontation. I just hope that the sequence focuses on the key characters (and actors) rather than any extraneous armies.
|
|
|
Nightingale
Rohan
Oct 5 2011, 12:57pm
Post #15 of 34
(1228 views)
Shortcut
|
|
'minus the breakdancing'. Hee Hee
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I do think the idea of Voronwe (and others) about a more psychological battle could be good, but might not translate well for the more impatient members of the audience.
Re; 'a contest of wills', think Gandalf and Theoden/Saruman in TT I suppose. (apologies if this wasn't what was meant)
|
|
|
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Oct 5 2011, 2:17pm
Post #16 of 34
(1190 views)
Shortcut
|
Maybe Darkstone or N.E.B would be able to provide some examples.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
|
|
|
SirDennisC
Half-elven
Oct 5 2011, 2:40pm
Post #17 of 34
(1237 views)
Shortcut
|
While reading your post a thought entered my mind: what if Smaug is said to be a fleshly manifestation of Sauron and Cumberbatch is the tie that binds them? Then we might go back through LOTR and assume that all the creatures that attacked Frodo were Sauron in the flesh. Yes even the Watcher in the Water. Not such a crazy idea when you consider how Theoden was depicted as possessed by Saruman in TTT.
|
|
|
Eruonen
Half-elven
Oct 5 2011, 2:41pm
Post #18 of 34
(1234 views)
Shortcut
|
|
There can't really be a struggle of wills yet because Sauron flees
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
before the attack. He was still trying to remain unnoticed. If Saruman was using the Palantir Sauron could have picked up his plans. Both were searching for the Ring. The Nazgul and orcs who remain are the ones left and eventually the Nazgul flee ....tactical retreat....and will hide in Mordor.
There will be a battle between elves and orcs, I am sure of that. Why the place was left to fester is another question. Galadriel had it destroyed at the end of the War of the Ring. It is odd how time moved sooo slowly in Middle Earth....an evil presence detected....150 yrs later it is investigated.......years later it is finally destroyed.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Oct 5 2011, 2:41pm)
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Oct 5 2011, 2:58pm
Post #19 of 34
(1177 views)
Shortcut
|
Creatures of Sauron, Gandalf, fireeworks, magic, immense danger, and at the end ofa hard-fought battle the battlefield is empty, with no trace of the Enemy.
I think the assault is quite like the Warg-attack on Caradhras - and should receive exactly the same treatment in the coming film.
"I really like this theme of almost all the “bad” characters just being pawns for someone else."
- Laerasëa
The weekly discussion of The Lord of the Rings is back. Join us in the Reading Room for The Scouring of the Shire!
|
|
|
Bladerunner
Gondor
Oct 5 2011, 3:01pm
Post #20 of 34
(1203 views)
Shortcut
|
I also visualize the Dol Guldur conflict as fundamentally a mental contest of wills rather than a physical battle. I see it as a conflict between natural harmony versus industrial dissonance.
Perhaps Galadriel, in her most sublimely terrifying Lady of Light guise, while in a deep meditative state, could create musical tones into which the other Istari and Eldars could then weave their 'magic,' so as to focus their combined will against the Necromancer. This force could be shown to lull and weaken the dark powers residing in Mirkwood, while simultaneously starting to have a healing effect on the forest itself.
The Necromancer could initially rebuff this assault with poisonous darkness and dissonant sounds that cause disharmony, conflict and instability among the Wise (such as sounds that can shatter glass at the right resonant frequencies). The Wise regroup and are ultimately able to overcome his power with the help of Saruman’s devices.
The Council's sound palette for the confrontation could include vocal humming, elvish chanting, dulcet bells, low-frequency sounds (similar to those made by blue whales), etc.
The confrontation could also shift to a starlit astral void (like when Frodo sees the wringwraiths at Weathertop). This way Annatar in fair form could make an appearance.
In the meantime, the Wise can be guarded by elves who protect them from any attempts by the enemy to infiltrate their camp and physically harm them while they are in a trance-like state.
|
|
|
Muireadhaigh
Rivendell
Oct 5 2011, 3:03pm
Post #21 of 34
(1192 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Well, variety is the spice of life
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
A magic spell surrounding Dol-Guldor, sentries hiding in the forest, and I could see some kind of non-physical confrontation, like the wizard battle from FotR. Perhaps this is when Saruman is turned, as he and Sauron do a kind of mind battle. But I also think there will be orcs and spiders and probably some other evil creatures called to defend the Necromancer and there will be at least some physical battle going on as the Necromancer quietly sneaks away. Not a huge battle, but enough to provide cover. If the Necromancer is able to just sneak away without some diversion, the wizards and elves would appear weak and not very wise at all.
|
|
|
Xanaseb
Tol Eressea
Oct 5 2011, 4:44pm
Post #22 of 34
(1167 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Hmmmm.....this is a hard subject......
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
......I don't think I have a suggestion. All I can say is that I am sure that PJ & Co. have boggled their minds over it for much longer than we have, and I'm sure they'll come up with something good.
Once again, I think it's a "wait and see" issue......
(like all TH speculation, now that I think about it lol)
The Blue Wizards = Enigma = Great topic for Fan Fiction
video blog please
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Oct 5 2011, 7:16pm
Post #23 of 34
(1178 views)
Shortcut
|
Day 1. Forces of Mirkwood and Lothlorien approach Dol Guldur. A dispute arises over the use of the primitive road net in the area. The forces of Mirkwood prevail and reach Dol Guldur first. They have their camp set up by nightfall.
Day 2. Disorganized, entire sections of the forces of Lothlorien become lost. Some wander off-road all night and most of the day. They straggle into positions around Dol Guldur all during the next night, causing a continuous racket that keeps the Mirkwood forces awake all night.
Day 3. The forces of Lothlorien finally settle in for some sleep just as the Mirkwood forces wake up to Reveille. Afterwards Mirkwood construction of siege-works produce a racket that keeps Lothlorien Elves from falling asleep. Some low-level meetings result in the indefinite postponement of construction.
Day 4. Mirkwood and Lotlorien supernumeraries meet to work out details of a proposed strategy session between their leaders. Topics such as number of secretaries, length of agenda, positions of seating, and the shape of the tables predominate.
Day 5. Hours of negotiation result in the meeting of the Elven leaders of Mirkwood and Lothlorien. Various ceremonies consist of long welcoming speeches including thanks to the Higher Powers, gift exchanges, friendship oaths, all interspersed with breakfast, brunch, lunch, afternoon tea, and dinner. The meeting is adjourned early because of a scheduled feast and costumed ball.
Day 6. Everyone sleeps late due to Dowinion wine hangovers. Later that night the small Rivendell contingent finally arrives. Everyone is kept up by what will become incessant nightly “tra-lal-lallyiing”.
Day 7. After a marathon all-day meeting behind locked doors the details of the order of battle are finally worked out.
Day 8. The Elven forces assemble on the field for the assault. It takes all of that morning and most of the afternoon to move into position. After a good deal of loss through heat exhaustion night falls and the command is given to stand down and go to bed.
Day 9. The Elven forces try again, finally getting into position an hour before nightfall. Orders to attack are issued, most of which are mis-routed. Those forces that receive orders jump off late and wander aimlessly in the dark. Most of the forces become lost. They straggle back into camp early the next morning.
Day 10. By mid-morning eagle-eyed Elven scouts finally notice that Dol Guldur has been deserted for at least a month. The Elven commanders call an emergency strategy meeting. After fifteen hours of intense negotiations the leaders finally emerge and declare victory.
Day 11. The Elves go home in triumph. Continuing in the puzzling traditions of Mithrellas and Nimrodel, many become lost in the woods and are never heard of again.
******************************************
How many months to Hobbiton?
Six and ten.
Can I get there by candle-light?
Yes, there and back again.
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
Oct 5 2011, 7:20pm
Post #24 of 34
(1116 views)
Shortcut
|
Have you ever been published?
that was some serious, super-powered writing.
I fully expect that this Wizard Battle
will be like nothing anyone
has ever witnessed before in Cinema.
The Main Thing
I'm having a Hard time with,
issss....the fact that these 2 Movies are gunna be
in 3D at 48 frames a Second?
PJ made a simple remark about this,
months ago about ....
"How we, the audience will be in the Room!"
Therefore,
whatever they COOK up in NZ,
these 2 films
will advance All Filmaking
with a Giant LEAP forward....
I'm convinced of that.
xoxo Hold on your Hats, Kiddies!
(I've always wondered WHY?
Gandalf paid a visit to Tom&Goldberry...?
Was it to say Goodbye before sailing into the West.)
xoxo Yours everlasting...TB
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
Oct 5 2011, 7:31pm
Post #25 of 34
(1139 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Snert, Cackle, GuHuFF, I'm rolling, Someone save me...from DStone...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
from his Giggles
(Tickleing anyone, is the worst form of Torture?)
Even Golderry wants
YOUR Autograph!
Bada-
Bing-
Badda
Bong...xoxoTommy Tuneful...
|
|
|
|
|
Wowie! Bladerunner!
[
1
