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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Beginning to The Hobbit movie

jacethemace
Registered User

Aug 28 2007, 10:47pm

Post #1 of 9 (563 views)
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Beginning to The Hobbit movie Can't Post

I've given this some thought and would like everyones opinion on my idea!
As with The Fellowship of the Ring there must be a prologue to kick off The Hobbit movie with and i reckon it just has to be of Gandalf in disguise making his way into Dol Guldur where he happens upon Thrain and as we all know gets given the map and key(the scenery could be incredible as we've all wanted to get a glimpse of what the Necromancers stronghold actually looks like).
Then depending on which story arc they intend to run Gandalf escapes Dol Guldur and the scene switches to him either meeting Thorin in Bree at the Prancing Pony(nice tie in from the lotr films) or on the road outside of the Shire, where he listens to the dwarfs burning ambition to claim back all that is rightfully his! Cue Gandalf thinking of Bilbo and.......Then the title sequence before the Hobbits' actual start!
I know i've left a few gaps but overall it would encompass a large portion of the audiences possible knowledge of the whole scenario- whether it be great or small.......
So what do u think all?!


Reptile
Rivendell


Aug 28 2007, 11:58pm

Post #2 of 9 (230 views)
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I'm with you on this one [In reply to] Can't Post

My first reaction was that I thought they should start with Smaug's attack on the Lonely Mountain, but the more I think abou it the more I agree with your approach. I think the Smaug attack would work into the story better as it's told in the book, while they're sitting around the fire in Hobbiton.

"If you listen closely, you can hear the gods laughing."


Compa_Mighty
Tol Eressea


Aug 29 2007, 12:20am

Post #3 of 9 (299 views)
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I think I've posted this before, but I'll repaste it: [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello! Someone at theonering.net posted this question, so I started thinking, and came up with this, which I want to share with you too.

And I'm still assuming there'll be two movies. I want to elaborate a little on the first minutes of the first movie.

The first image is Lonely Mountain at night. Then we come in and see a feast the King under the Mountain is hosting. We get to see all the majesty of both the King and the Kingdom of Erebor. Suddenly, there's screaming by the centinels, and we start seeing fire, terrible noises of wings flapping are in the air... the warriors take their weapons to face the threat but never come back, dead by the fire of the beast. After some chaotic scenes we see a group of dwarves walking in the open, with the smoking silhouette of Lonely Mountain behind.

The title comes on... The Hobbit.

Perhaps the track Concerning Hobbits comes in very lightly in the background.

Gandalf, in voice off, starts speaking the classic lines of the beginning of the book, not all the chapter, but a nice selection that could be done to introduce the movie:

We'll take a kind of tour of Bag End, the camera moving as if it were the spectator who just entered the place.

"In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort."

From then on, Gandalf continues:

"This hobbit was a very well-to-do hobbit, and his name was Baggins. The Bagginses have lived in the neighbourhood of The Hill for time out of mind, and people considered them very respectable, not only because most of them were rich, but also because they never had any adventures or did anything unexpected. This is a story of how a Baggins had an adventure, and found himself doing and saying things altogether unexpected. he may have lost the neighbours' respect, but he gained -- well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end."

Voice off ends, we see a shot of Gandalf near Bag End, and Bilbo says: Good morning!

That's what I thought so far.

The rest of the flashback of the destruction of Erebor could be told later by either Gandalf or Thorin, depending on the effect and storytelling decisions they make.

If they actually go with the two movie idea, I believe the sequence for the end of the first one should be: Gandalf leaves them in the verge of Mirkwood, and we know nothing of him until the second movie. All the action in Mirkwood happens, and the last shot of the first movie is Bilbo clinging to the barrell and seeing the Lonely Mountain from afar.

It's a little beyond the half of the book. But I think it would work, given the amount of action that happens afterwards.

Second movie begins with Gandalf, showing us where he went, probably the last decision of the White Council to attack Dol Guldur and the march of whatever army they assembled towards the site of the battle.

The dwarves arrive to Esgaroth, and once they decide to leave, we have a new update on the White Council story, then on, all focuses on Bilbo and the dwarves, the story goes as it is in the book, with a remarkable Battle in the End. the outcome of the Battle at Dol Guldur is seen in a flashback when Bilbo asks Gandalf where he was when he left them, in the fashion of Gandalf's flashback in the Fellowship, where we see it, although he only tells Frodo he "was delayed".

With the right dialogue it's a nice prelude to the Lord of the Rings.

EDIT: One important thing: we never see Smaug in the prologue or the flashbacks, we get to see Smaug for the first time when Bilbo first sees him, sleeping on the treasure, like John Howe's painting. I think that scene would have to be very important, one cannot overstate Smaug. The reason of not seeing him earlier? Let the spectator be marvelled the same as Bilbo, at the same time as Bilbo.

Second movie ends with Bilbo arriving to Bag End, probably eliminating the Sackville-Bagginses problem, for similar reasons for which they eliminated the Scouring of the Shire.

I only have one problem. If there are two movies, how would they call them? One obvious choice is There and Back Again, but which of the two? And how to call the other one?

Things get uglier if they decide to go with The Hobbit + Prequel... How do you assemble a coherent 3 hour story out of the appendices, apart from doing it just about Aragorn's (Thorondor's) adventures, which presents a problem, given the 17 years that were eliminated from the movies' timeline. How would you call it?

Maybe I'm being too picky, but anyway... What do you think?

Do you have a particular vision of a particular scene?

Let it be heard! We want Jackson for The Hobbit!


jacethemace
Registered User

Aug 29 2007, 2:27pm

Post #4 of 9 (211 views)
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great ideas! [In reply to] Can't Post

yes love the detail that you've gone to and i heartily agree with the first showing of smaug must be as bilbo sees him in the book but he must be shown at some point in the first movie if they make the 2 but perhaps only in silhouette as part of a back story with as you say a thorin or gandalf narrative flashback.
i do however think they must encompass The Lord of the Rings into the timeline by including the gandalf rescues thrain at Dol Guldur/gets the map and key scene as in Unfinished Tales as this knits everything together for without it Gandalf wouldnt have met Thorin /thought of using Bilbo etc etc.
very tricky if they do decide to do 2 movies but the only obvious answer for the title for me is The Hobbit with "or there and back again" perhaps underneath in smaller writing but its a bit long winded and not entirely accurate considering the story is split in 2! i cant see anything else apart from The Hobbit Part II for the second movie with perhaps "The desolation of smaug" or something similar underneath.
the battle of five armies has to end the film or films but to finish the first hhmmm thats a bit trickier but the arrival at mirkwood would be very dramatic and set it up nicely with a shot of the lonely mountain in the background and as you say Gandalf could do a dol guldur flashback when he turns up in the second movie .


Elven
Valinor


Aug 29 2007, 4:48pm

Post #5 of 9 (218 views)
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What I see as something which will take some creative brainstorming .. [In reply to] Can't Post

is not making the Hobbit look like it is stitched together pieces of Lord of the Rings ...

As I read through the Hobbit - I see so many scenes and corelations between the Hobbit settings and the Lord of The Rings settings - the two (movies) from the books would have to be expressed differently maybe ...
What could be done differently yet keep the continuity .... for example - Gandalf and Bilbo greeting each other ... I understand the significance of the same Bag End, the same Bilbo, the same Gandalf ... (easily done when you consider that Gandalf exclaims "You havent changed a bit" LoTR ... (very nice line - especially if you are looking at Bilbo not having aged for the Hobbit! ... though Bilbo was given a 'younger look' in the scenes from Gollums cave) ... the greetings in both the Hobbit and the LoTR are similar - even the rasp on the green door - one to announce very old friends - and one to scratch the 'Burgular' sign.
smoking, envelopes, mention of Fireworks and adventures, magic jewellry, Bilbo in the kitchen (putting the kettle on - eating) smoking, putting the kettle on, door knocks, suprise at unwelcomed visitors, the hearth being symbolic, night, day, maps, letters, hats and cloaks, staffs, coat pegs, songs ...

some differences ... musical instruments

were up to page 7 Crazy

Gandalf rides a splendid white horse...
Meetings at pubs
Bad weather
Trecking through woods and forging streams
Ponies
Some Gandalf magic
Trolls and treasure
Bilbos sword from the troll cave
arriving in Rivendell and Elrond
Elves ... page 40

I hope you can see what Im saying ... up until the time of Bilbo finding the ring (which was captured in LoTR) ... and after it ...
there are so many similarities ... do you make them recognisable ... do you include them ... how do you recapture the awe of seeing Rivendell as Bilbo did for the first time? -

Right through to the end of the Hobbit story, its hard not to be reminded of the Lord of the Rings ... is that good or bad ....
In time ... how do you think people will view the Hobbit ... prior to LoTR or after it? I think the Hobbit has to lead into LoTR ... but this tricksy ... the links have to be strong between the two ... and not so distant that they seem alien to each other ... but having the Hobbit too similar to LoTR (IMHO) will make the 2 productions a very long haul to watch ...


I can think of at least 3 structured beginings from some other part of the Hobbit to start an intro ... I just dont think it should be that obvious ... but it has to be credible and from Tolkien ...
To me the Lonely Mountain is part but not all of the story -
one thing about LoTR was there seemed to be too many 'endings' (not for me, just comments made) ... so I just feel the Hobbit should have a streamlined continuity ... it doesnt mean theres no history or looking back to fill in gaps ... there could be a conclusion ... but it has to have something to stretch and reach the LoTR ... (Im talking movies - not books) ...

I always thought that one thing that could be done is mature the Hobbit to the ranks of LoTR ...

The other thing is the 'two movie' structure ... that gives the Hobbit so much scope forward and backwards chronologically and historically ...
I have great hope for the Hobbit to shine as brightly as LoTR - but its in the calculation of putting it together and connecting it to LoTR in an elegant and comprehensible way ... without getting too sentimental ...

The Hobbit I think will be more of an experience ... and a movie/s.


Now Im totally on another tangent - sorry - just some thoughts ... thinking of making the Hobbit by stitching together bits from LoTR ... nah ... tomorrow Wink

Elven x


SILVERCHAIRS Daniel Johns gets the crowd going at the 'Big Day Out Festival' at Minas Tirith before Denethors famous stage dive.


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
..*sing & sway* "All we are saying ..Is Give Pete A Chance" ...
"Your friends are with you Peter"


jacethemace
Registered User

Aug 29 2007, 5:19pm

Post #6 of 9 (202 views)
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now we're getting somewhere! [In reply to] Can't Post

to make the Hobbit i agree that is has to be "upgraded" from more of a childrens book(sorry dont mean to offend anyone here!?) to something of a similar vein to LOTR. Personally i could have done with more of a dark edge to LOTR than it already had in places(e.g. Shelobs lair & Dwimorberg not enough menace for my tastes!) so the Hobbit has a long way to go in terms of its overall "feeling" to reach that. take for example the troll scene as a main difference in how some of the creatures are looked upon between the 2 stories- in the hobbit they are comical even though they eat you!
look we dont want to change things too drastically but a huge resounding YES that they have to tie in together but whilst somehow retaining an air of a difference- not like ones the infant while the others all grown up!
it is tricksy but all the ingredients are there dol guldur-sauron, thrain/map & key-gandalf thinks of bilbo, trolls/finding sting-statues/sword handover etc etc loads of great story beginnings not too mention the resounding WHOPPER that is gollum,bilbo and the ring!
i read the hobbit again recently and as i much as i enjoyed it i couldnt help but feel my satisfaction was all the more because having read/watched LOTR and read unfinished tales the joining together of all the different details of the story threads made it all the richer and lent it a greater historical epic slant rather than just a stand alone they meet they greet they travel they unravel the end!!


Mortimus
Bree

Aug 29 2007, 7:38pm

Post #7 of 9 (233 views)
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Man, I'm completely differently-oriented... [In reply to] Can't Post

I want Dwarves to open this movie!

I mean, come on! They got sidelined in the trilogy, there's very little chance any future Tolkien-themed movie will cater for them, so let's acknowledge that The Hobbit wasn't originally conceived as a LotR prequel about Dol Guldur and focus on the tragedy of Thorin. Sure, Dol Guldur can be in there somewhere as a flashback - it's part of Thorin's story too...

...but I want to see Azanulbizar, Azog, the young Dain as a foreshadowing of his later arrival. heck, you could just reshoot the Last Alliance prologue from Fellowship with Dwarves and I'd be content :)

Dwarves. Fighting. Then we can understand Bilbo's initial apprehension.


Compa_Mighty
Tol Eressea


Aug 29 2007, 8:25pm

Post #8 of 9 (197 views)
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Nice ideas... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I always thought that one thing that could be done is mature the Hobbit to the ranks of LoTR ...

The other thing is the 'two movie' structure ... that gives the Hobbit so much scope forward and backwards chronologically and historically ...
I have great hope for the Hobbit to shine as brightly as LoTR - but its in the calculation of putting it together and connecting it to LoTR in an elegant and comprehensible way ... without getting too sentimental ...



Quote


to make the Hobbit i agree that is has to be "upgraded" from more of a childrens book(sorry dont mean to offend anyone here!?) to something of a similar vein to LOTR. Personally i could have done with more of a dark edge to LOTR than it already had in places(e.g. Shelobs lair & Dwimorberg not enough menace for my tastes!) so the Hobbit has a long way to go in terms of its overall "feeling" to reach that.



I totally agree with you there. Fortunately, Peter Jackson has thought of that as well, seethis article: http://www.aintitcool.com/node/30085 And since it now seems plausible that he will direct, well, everything could go in that direction.


Quote
Sure, Dol Guldur can be in there somewhere as a flashback - it's part of Thorin's story too...

...but I want to see Azanulbizar, Azog, the young Dain as a foreshadowing of his later arrival.



That would look SO cool… but I think it would detract from the story, personally I don’t think the story was about the dwarves, it was the adventures of an unlikely hero… besides Tolkien managed it as a part of the huge planning ahead Gandalf did for the War of the Ring, which is one of the bottom lines here: this movie should be treated as Tolkien later in his life wanted the story to be treated… as prelude to the Lord of the Rings0, and an integral part of the Middle Earth lore.

Let it be heard! We want Jackson for The Hobbit!


Elizabeth
Valinor


Aug 29 2007, 9:16pm

Post #9 of 9 (238 views)
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This story is not about Gandalf. [In reply to] Can't Post

As he said at the beginning of FotR (movie) he "merely gave Bilbo a nudge out the door". Readers of The Hobbit aren't assumed to know any background, and movie viewers need none. IMO the best approach is simply some pans around Hobbiton (as in the "concerning hobbits" section of FotR), maybe some shots of Bilbo leading his uneventful life, and then Gandalf arrives with the dwarves.

If the rumored 'second movie' is intended as more of an LotR prequel, it can deal with the Necromancer and Dol Guldur and the White Council and all that, they don't belong in "The Hobbit".




Son of Elizabeth in Frodo's tree
March, 2007


Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'

 
 

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