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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Aug 2 2011, 5:42pm
Post #1 of 118
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There is no real Enemy in the Hobbit.
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There are a number of adversaries that are met on Bilbo's road to Erebor and back again but even the Goblins of the Misty Mountains do not seem all that evil (at least until they spot Beater & Biter). Given today's tendency for reductionist action oriented 'GOOD against EVIL' screenplays can the Hobbit survive with its relative innocence intact?
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Aug 2 2011, 5:43pm)
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Aug 2 2011, 5:47pm
Post #3 of 118
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the Necromancer? and i'm sure Smaug will be built up as the enemy at the beginning, there will be flashbacks of his destruction ect... like how they showed Sauron at the beginning of FOTR.
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Aug 2 2011, 5:54pm
Post #4 of 118
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He functions as an obstacle for a portion of the book but he is only a temporary problem.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Oiotári
Dor-Lomin
Aug 2 2011, 6:01pm
Post #5 of 118
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the dwarves sure aren't happy with him (to put it lightly  )
but as far as a "This is what the story all comes down to, defeating this enemy" enemy, there isn't one, since the quest was to get the gold back (not necessarily all of it), not to defeat Smaug
..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.
..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Aug 2 2011, 6:01pm
Post #6 of 118
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So are you saying that the Hobbit will lose its struggle to show what it was written about
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and fall into the pit lined with so many action/adventure films? I think the enemies in the Hobbit are Cowardice, Egotism and Greed. Not Goblins, Dragons and reborn evil demigods.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Delrond
Nargothrond
Aug 2 2011, 6:11pm
Post #7 of 118
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If you put it that way, I'd add Lust and Pride. I suppose one could make the case that all of the 7 Deadly Sins are depicted in some manner as enemies. Never thought of TH in such a light, Kangi Ska.
A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction.
(This post was edited by Delrond on Aug 2 2011, 6:14pm)
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Captain Salt
Dor-Lomin
Aug 2 2011, 6:17pm
Post #8 of 118
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is really the central antagonist in TH, (and what he personifies, greed/malice), much as the "idea" of Sauron wasn't fleshed out into an actual presence or character in LotR. Saruman was a more immediate, physical nemesis in the trilogy, and I imagine Sauron/The Necromancer will fit the bill in TH.
I would rather be watching Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit" and Ridley Scott's "Prometheus"...it's going to be a long few years.
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irreality
Nevrast
Aug 2 2011, 6:23pm
Post #9 of 118
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Really? I always saw the goblins and wargs as evil in The Hobbit. They ambush them halfway through the book, and then come back at the end so that Men, Elves and Dwarves put aside their differences to battle them. Smaug is also evil, but more of a MacGuffin than the Enemy.
That said, almost all the "Heroes" except for Bard are antiheroes. But I never saw anything redeeming about the goblins and wargs.
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ByThorinsBeard
Nargothrond
Aug 2 2011, 6:35pm
Post #10 of 118
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Completely agree. The real enemies are inside
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Smaug is an outward reflection of the rampant greed in the book. And I'd say the actions of a few really do determine the fate of this world.
So I agree with your post.
"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you anywhere." - Albert Einstein.
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veldrin
Registered User
Aug 2 2011, 6:37pm
Post #11 of 118
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First of all we need to define "enemy"? Is it a person, being, or thing or do we accept abstract things like greed and envy, perhaps even evil as a potential enemy?
Thinking of the movie it would benefit from a clear and obvious enemy (like Sauron in the LotR movies) and the best choice here I believe is Smaug. The problem arises when (unless PJ makes a real twist) Bard slays Smaug above Laketown. What now? The ENEMY is dead and we have over an hour left of the movie...
One way to go around this is to have Smaug be present at the Battle of Five Armies, don't ask me how though.
When I think back upon The Return of the King we faced the same thing; the ENEMY was defeated and there was still plenty left of the movie, albeit not much with action. In The Hobbit it could be the same but with the beast yet to come (the Battle of Five Armies).
If Smaug is not the ENEMY then who or what is? Having greed and so on as an enemy is difficult to do in a movie.
Personally I have always (well since I learned of what it was at school) seen The Hobbit as a Bildungsroman where the focus lies upon the personal growth of Bilbo (albet not from youth to adulthood). This can be achived in a movie if we (the audience) get to clearly witness the growth of the protagonist, and requires no ENEMY in the story. However, I don't see this happening in a PJ movie with all the potential that The Hobbit brings.
(This post was edited by veldrin on Aug 2 2011, 6:39pm)
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Aug 2 2011, 6:49pm
Post #12 of 118
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Sauron/The Necromancer will fit the bill.
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I really hope they do not refocus the Hobbit on a made up version of Sauron as The Necromancer. I think the Hobbit should remain "Primarily" about what the book is about and that is "The Hobbit" AKA Bilbo Baggins. (of course there are the 13 Dwarves and a Wizard and the small matter of the Dragon.)
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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grinman
Ossiriand
Aug 2 2011, 6:59pm
Post #13 of 118
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...That Sauron/Necromancer remain a side story (an important tie to the trilogy, but a side story nonetheless). Smaug is a major obstacle, but not a traditional enemy. I agree with what has been said above; The real story should be about Bilbo and his growth as a character. It IS called the "The Hobbit" after all. Whereas "The Lord of the Rings" obviously referred to Sauron. So that should be a huge clue, right there. I trust that PJ & co. will do it right.
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Aug 2 2011, 7:09pm
Post #14 of 118
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Maybe they'll give Azog a bigger role and move his death to the Battle of Five Armies (replacing Bolg) and have him present when the dwarves get captured and brought to the Great Goblin. He could be a Lurtz/Gothmog type villain. I could see them having Thorin kill him instead of Dain, if they did that. I'm not sure if I'd like that though...
Having more villains/bad guys like this shouldn't distract from the main antagonists (greed, prided, etc.) anymore than Sauron, Saruman, and the Witch King distracted from the Ring itself.
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Rosie-with-the-ribbons
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Aug 2 2011, 7:17pm
Post #15 of 118
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I see The Hobbit more as an adventurous roadmovie. Bilbo sets off with the dwarves on an adventure to get the treasure back, not to fight an enemy. So the trolls, goblins, wargs, spiders, woodfolk and Smaug are more like adversaries on their way to the treasure, not real enemies.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Aug 2 2011, 8:12pm
Post #16 of 118
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Ultimate enemy of the story: Thorin's greed...
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Once the Dwarves discover Smaug's hoard and learn of the dragon's death, Thorin becomes his own worst enemy.
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Gandalf'sMother
Nargothrond
Aug 2 2011, 8:32pm
Post #17 of 118
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I wrote the following elsewhere, and think it applies
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I think the best way to sum up the core of the Hobbit is that the Hobbit is about:
The ultimate difference between Bilbo and Thorin.
Pragmatic, merciful, humble Bilbo VS vengeful, selfish, proud Thorin.
In short, it is a repudiation of the Ragnarok-ethic that Tolkien found unfortunate about the pagan Norse, and an ennoblement of the humble.
In this sense, you do not need a fixed external enemy. Put simplistically, Thorin is the constant, present enemy. He is Smaug personified, and is (conveniently for the filmmakers) with us as a main character for all three films. If the filmmakers are smart, and they just might be, they will play up this aspect of the Hobbit (the conflict b/w Bilbo and Thorin) and not try to create a false villain out of the Necromancer.
Thorin is the enemy. Say it loud!
-GM
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Xanaseb
Dor-Lomin
Aug 2 2011, 8:38pm
Post #18 of 118
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The film will definitely not be as dark....
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.....particularly in the first film I suspect. I think as the book works without a strong conventional enemy, I'm sure the films will. Though I also share the concerns that they might expand the importance of the Necromancer too much.
"But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinethar's and Rómestámo's task was to circumvent Sauron, to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion and after his first fall to search out his hiding and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East. They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second age and Third age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East who would both in the Second age and Third age otherwise have outnumbered the West."
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Gandalf'sMother
Nargothrond
Aug 2 2011, 8:46pm
Post #19 of 118
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"both films" not "all three."
But one can dream!
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sarahb1863
Ossiriand
Aug 2 2011, 9:26pm
Post #20 of 118
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As soon as I saw the title of this thread I thought, "But there IS an enemy in the story - Thorin's greed!" It pushes him to disregard all else: generosity, common sense, even the welfare of the other dwarves, including his own nephews Kili and Fili.
Thorin's greed for Smaug's gold makes him treat Bilbo like crud and in the end, as they're marching out to a really pointless battle, Bilbo tries to talk some sense into Thorin and is thoroughly rebuffed because "Hobbits don't understand war." (I'm actually quoting the Rankin Bass version here because I don't have my copy of the book at hand!) But Thorin doesn't understand peace - all he wants is that gold, and once he has it he doesn't want to share it with anybody.
The tragedy is that it costs him very dearly, and he lives long enough to realize it - which is doubly tragic when you consider (SPOILER!) that in the book, Kili and Fili don't even agree with him about not sharing with Bard but go to war with him anyway because he's their uncle, and both die defending him "with shield and body". If it's handled right, the moment where Thorin watches his nephews die (or realizes they're dead) because of HIS greed is going to be heartwrenching to watch. And the ensuing scene, where Thorin finally admits on his deathbed that Bilbo was right all along, is going to be get-out-the-hanky time.
(This post was edited by sarahb1863 on Aug 2 2011, 9:27pm)
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RosieLass
Doriath
Aug 2 2011, 9:42pm
Post #21 of 118
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But Tolkien also makes a case for
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dwarves, especially, being susceptible to gold fever (or whatever he calls it), which suggests that Thorin's "villainy" has some outside influence as well.
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Muireadhaigh
Ossiriand
Aug 2 2011, 9:50pm
Post #22 of 118
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It's a dangerous business, going out of your door
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You step onto the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.
I completely agree, there doesn't have to be The One Enemy. And I like your Adventurous Road Movie description. Along the Road, there will be many obstacals to be avoided, adversaries to be beaten, and troubles from within as well as from the outside. Although I do see Smaug as the main bad guy early, as something like a focal point, "How will we ever defeat a Dragon?". Untill of course we later find out otherwise, that there are other troubles worse than dragons. But that's a story for another movie, or three.
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Muireadhaigh
Ossiriand
Aug 2 2011, 10:20pm
Post #23 of 118
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PJ needs to use caution with one thing
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He can't build up Smaug too much. He is going to have to walk a fine line in using Smaug as the enemy, but be careful not to make his death, by a single arrow, and far away from the dwarves and Bilbo, seem anti-climactic. Smaug will be the main focus as the enemy for most of the two movies, so I expect Laketown to be destroyed in a fashion unlike anything before it, or Smaug's death will seem a letdown. PJ will have a fine mess on his hands if the greed and vanity of Thorin and Smaug vs the growth of a hobbit from humble homebody to someone unafraid to risk his own safety for his friends.
It is a tricky job to show the subtle story, when there will be dragons burning towns, trolls trying to eat the main charactersis, orcs and goblins on their trail, giant siders, and the whole Necromancer side story. I don't envy PJ in this at all. I hope he's up to the job. And don't get me wrong, I am absolutely looking forward the all the action and adventure, and suspense, along with some of the best special effects ever seen, and since it's PJ, we know there will be a few severed heads for good measure. I just hope he's up to the task of showing the smaller story is every bit as important.
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sarahb1863
Ossiriand
Aug 2 2011, 10:38pm
Post #24 of 118
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and one of the cool things about "The Hobbit", the book - that there IS a smaller, more subtle story behind all the stuff about dragons and gold and elves. The Rankin Bass version actually, I think, did a pretty good job of pointing this out. It kept in most of the major plot elements - the goblins, the spiders, Smaug - but also developed the adversarial relationship of Bilbo (calm, reason, decency and common sense) and Thorin (greed, vanity, stubbornness and pride). The final scene between Bilbo and Thorin works very well IMO because Rankin Bass was able to keep this element in, and not have the special effects overwhelm it - the simple, eloquent point that Bilbo's world of simple joys and goodheartedness was in the end worth a lot more than the cold riches that Thorin was trying so hard to get his hands on. He failed, and it killed him, but not before he saw the error of his ways.
This is Peter Jackson's challenge: that he has three hours, thirteen dwarves with distinct and (here's hoping) likable personalities with stories to tell, Bilbo, Gandalf, a host of supporting characters and a LOT of action. We all know PJ loves the set pieces, the battles, the HUGE canvas that film has to offer...but if he doesn't capture the gentle simplicity of the story's "moral" (if you will), the whole thing might come off showy and hollow - a gorgeous story with no heart.
PJ was lucky with LoTR, there were so many stories to tell that he could afford a few misfires - he botched Faramir's storyline but it didn't matter so much, because there was also Aragorn's, and Frodo's, and those largely worked, well enough for the movie to earn an Academy Award.
He doesn't have that safety hatch with this movie. It doesn't matter how many of the dwarves get great stories, or how awesome Beorn or Rivendell are, if we don't get to Thorin's final speech and have everybody in the theater feeling the same lump in their throat. If he misses on that one - if he gets too carried away with how cool the BoFA looks and misses the heart of the story - the whole movie will be diminished.
The good news is, PJ loves the Hobbits, so at the moment I'm pretty optimistic that he's on the right track. What I'd like to see is the whole Bilbo/Thorin relationship played like the relationship between Boromir and Aragorn was handled - they butted heads, but in the end there was mutual respect and regret, and it was all very subtle rather than obvious and ham-handed. Boromir at first seemed unlikable, but as the movie unspooled we learned more about him and by the time those arrows went into him the whole audience was gasping in pain - they were thoroughly on his side. I want that sort of subtlety for this story. I hope we get it.
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Smaug is their enemy.
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