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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
TheOneRing.net Exclusive: Behold! Thorin Oakenshield and Orcrist!
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marillaraina
Rohan

Jul 18 2011, 5:58pm

Post #301 of 401 (4956 views)
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Well Richard Armitage is more than capable of... [In reply to] Can't Post

...of a "brink of tears" look so I'm still not seeing the issue with Armitage. :)



In Reply To
I am sorry if you think Ian McShane's solemn gaze is 'hideous', but surely you acknowledge that the 'hangdog' expression is not permanently fixed on his face? For example, here is a picture of the man smiling; the lines on his face are somewhat smoothed out and he certainly doesn't look like he's about to 'burst into tears'! The picture I posted earlier was from some sort of high-contrast photoshoot which seems to emphasise the lines and crags of his face it's part of the reason I selected it (remember, 195-year-old Dwarf), and while he does have a somewhat mournful look in his eyes, I don't see why he shouldn't be able to, you know, put on different expressions, as seen in the above picture of him with his wife. I actually think the capability to put on the brink-of-tears look would be a wonderful asset for the scene where Thorin learns that one of his allies has betrayed him, stolen the birthright he desires so greatly and handed it to his enemies...



Rufus
Bree

Jul 18 2011, 5:59pm

Post #302 of 401 (4929 views)
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I am not convinced [In reply to] Can't Post

Flag I saw IM in pirates I wasn't impressed he seemed swamped by the costume so how would he cope with Thorin's. Also for mein this shot RA looks about 50 in human years which is ok for 195 in Dwarf years. I look at IM and just don't see how he could attack the trolls fight of the Goblins etc.

Also I think we will have at least one scene featuring the young Thorin probably when he loses his home. They couldn't have made IM look younger.

In Reply To
I am sorry if you think Ian McShane's solemn gaze is 'hideous', but surely you acknowledge that the 'hangdog' expression is not permanently fixed on his face? For example, here is a picture of the man smiling; the lines on his face are somewhat smoothed out and he certainly doesn't look like he's about to 'burst into tears'! The picture I posted earlier was from some sort of high-contrast photoshoot which seems to emphasise the lines and crags of his face it's part of the reason I selected it (remember, 195-year-old Dwarf), and while he does have a somewhat mournful look in his eyes, I don't see why he shouldn't be able to, you know, put on different expressions, as seen in the above picture of him with his wife. I actually think the capability to put on the brink-of-tears look would be a wonderful asset for the scene where Thorin learns that one of his allies has betrayed him, stolen the birthright he desires so greatly and handed it to his enemies...



Rosebud
The Shire

Jul 18 2011, 6:09pm

Post #303 of 401 (4915 views)
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Proportions [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the "lumpy faces" in LOTR is mainly a by-product of trying to alter the proportions of the human body to become more compact, as per tolkien's description of the dwarves physique. The head simply has to be made larger somehow. Many of the actors casts as dwarves are actually quite tall so that they can interact with Martin Freeman without needing any special scale effects.
I think the issue of proportions is solved nicer in some of the new designs compared with Gimli - rather than using a full mask, emphasis is on ears, nose forehead/hair, leaving a bit more of the actors real face to be used for, well, acting. Balin, Oin and Gloin really appear to have dwarven proportions.

The issue for me with Fili, Kili and very possibly Thorin is precisely this, that they still looks human rather than dwarfish. I'm all for a little bit of variation in terms of look, but I would have liked to see some characteristics that unites all of them and ultimately conveys that they're dwarves, rather than men.


dormouse
Half-elven

Jul 18 2011, 6:10pm

Post #304 of 401 (4929 views)
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Now, Flagg, that's not fair... [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't say Ian McShane himself looked hideous, not would I. I have no personal grievance against the man and besides, I'd never say that of anyone. I used to like him very much in Lovejoy, years ago.

I was reacting to your mock-up of him as Thorin. If someone who really disliked him had done that they couldn't have made him look much less suitable, to my mind. I'm sorry, I know it's not what you want to hear. I'm sure he's a very nice man and a fine actor in his own field but I just don't feel he's right for Thorin. Besides, the role isn't open. It's taken, by Richard Armitage. It's really too late to discuss casting now. Richard Armitage isn't the Thorin I imagine when I read the book but I have every confidence that he will really bring the character to life in the films and I'm looking forward to seeing him do it. I think you'll find he has a broad enough range of emotions, if your mind isn't so closed that you won't even try to take his performance on merit.

I'm sorry, this is just how I feel about it.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 18 2011, 6:12pm

Post #305 of 401 (4920 views)
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So it's OK for Armitage to look like he's about to burst into tears, but not McShane? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


nobofthepony
Lorien


Jul 18 2011, 6:20pm

Post #306 of 401 (4912 views)
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let it rest Flagg [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't like the picture either... but I do like the one of Armitage. PJ is good at surprising us with unlikely actors he knows he can get the right performance from. Just because Guillermo would have cast someone else doesn't make GDT right. I trust PJ more because he's been here before, he puts together a group of actors as an ensemble, not a mere collection of names. He must have seen chemistry between Armitage and Freeman as well as the rest of the dwarves.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 18 2011, 6:23pm

Post #307 of 401 (4838 views)
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That's not what I meant [In reply to] Can't Post

You said 'That's hideous' a couple of times, but you did not actually specify what you were talking about from context I assumed that you were saying the hangdog/solemn gaze expression was hideous. If you'll re-read my last post, you'll find that this is exactly what I said I never accused you of making personal remarks about the man, as you seem to imply.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 18 2011, 6:24pm

Post #308 of 401 (4782 views)
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Great job, I really like that. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 18 2011, 6:30pm

Post #309 of 401 (4936 views)
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Please do not say that [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Just because Guillermo would have cast someone else doesn't make GDT right.

You are not the first one to say this, but boiling down my point of view to 'You just like McShane because GDT liked him' is an entirely dishonest and unfair assessment of this situation. I have stated many times why I think McShane was a good choice for Thorin, and all my reasons have been real ones; never have I said that I think he's good because my favoured director wanted him. (The same cannot be said of those who chant the 'Trust PJ' mantra.) I have praised several of PJ's casting decisions, so I hope you realise that I am not mindlessly following GDT and condemning PJ out of spite.


marillaraina
Rohan

Jul 18 2011, 6:31pm

Post #310 of 401 (4857 views)
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huh? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
So it's OK for Armitage to look like he's about to burst into tears, but not McShane?


No idea what you are talking about, who said that? I was responding to your post, not to the other post. In your post you talked about that look being a good one, that McShane had, for what is going to happen in The Hobbit and I was responding that I'm quite sure Richard Armitage is more than capable of pulling off the bring of tears look if needs be. So it isn't like McShane is capable of it and Armitage isn't, so it isn't really a point in McShane's favor, IMO.

Or I tried to say that in not quite so many words and obviously must have failed. :)


ByThorinsBeard
Rohan

Jul 18 2011, 6:31pm

Post #311 of 401 (4793 views)
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Great idea Hengist! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm rather rusty on my Tolkien dwarf lore (need to expand beyond LoTR and The Hobbit).

I hope your excellent suggestion is used as a reason why Thorin and Kili/Fili have shorter beards.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 18 2011, 6:36pm

Post #312 of 401 (4858 views)
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Well that's up to the costume designers [In reply to] Can't Post

I doubt that McShane would have been 'swamped' had he been cast as Thorin and made to wear a similar costume as the one we see Armitage wearing now; I actually think the image I posted earlier does a pretty good job of showing that he wouldn't look swamped at all. As for the flashback where Erebor and Dale are destroyed: I sincerely hope that it was not a major factor in the filmmakers' casting process. That scene is not essential to the story of The Hobbit, and even if they do include it, they could make Thorin look youthful with prosthetics, or simply cast a younger actor for the brief duration of the flashback. I think being true to the heart of the character is more important than showing him cartwheeling around and smashing hordes of goblins.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 18 2011, 6:43pm

Post #313 of 401 (4889 views)
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You seem to have taken my post out of context [In reply to] Can't Post

I was responding to dormouse, who said that McShane looked as if he was about to 'burst into tears', and that this was a 'hideous' expression (I think; I'm still confused about that one). In any case, I think the despair of the character at the moment of his betrayal would be more powerful if he is being portrayed as aged and nearing the end of his life (or at least the end of his strength); that this is his last grasp, his final chance to reclaim his birthright, and that he has been thwarted utterly. I wish Armitage good luck I actually have a certain degree of faith in him, believe it or not but I can't help but feel that he was not the best choice for the part.


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Jul 18 2011, 6:48pm

Post #314 of 401 (4790 views)
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Wait, wait, wait [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you just ask people not to boil your opinion down to just your director preference while simultaneously boiling down the opinions of all the PJ preferrers simply to to their director preference?

My LiveJournal
My Costuming Site
TORn's Costume Discussions Archive


Garfeimao
Rohan


Jul 18 2011, 6:49pm

Post #315 of 401 (4781 views)
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Gowron indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

He does kinda look like Gowron, doesn't he. And I can't help thinking of the quote "Revenge, a dish best served Cold" that Christopher Plummer uttered in Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country.


But then, the Klingons are a warrior race, like the Dwarves, so maybe the inspiration is closer than we think.

Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,


Garfeimao
The orange stripey One



Cruise to Middle-earth


mykonos
Bree


Jul 18 2011, 6:50pm

Post #316 of 401 (4782 views)
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You're pretty good at image editing! [In reply to] Can't Post

I ilke Ian McShane, but his eyes look a little bland in that pic Wink Good job nonetheless.

There's nothing wrong with having this image as your own personal Thorin. But it's just not going to be the Thorin of the movies. I think it would be wise to get used to that fact and just enjoy what's coming our way in 2012. Smile


dormouse
Half-elven

Jul 18 2011, 6:52pm

Post #317 of 401 (4836 views)
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*Sigh* [In reply to] Can't Post

Flagg, I said the picture looked hideous. Not the man, not his expression, the picture. OK? I have just explained this once, so please take my word for it now - nobody likes beng misquoted.


Rufus
Bree

Jul 18 2011, 6:53pm

Post #318 of 401 (4767 views)
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Perhaps we should agree to differ [In reply to] Can't Post

I honestly thought that IM was badly cast in Pirates and his rewiews were mixed at best. I felt he struggled to allow his personality to break free of the costume.

I agree that Thorins back story is only part of it but these films have to opened up because the hobbit as it is written would not transfer to two films. so I am suggest there will be more than just a nod to the back story. If so PJ had to choose an actor who could age thirty odd years.

Te age and worldly weariness. He does not have to look like a seventy year ol to show how troubled he is by all that he as lost.

Perhaps Flagg we should agree to difer


Zloy
Registered User

Jul 18 2011, 6:54pm

Post #319 of 401 (4783 views)
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Hi-res Balin and Dwalin [In reply to] Can't Post

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0yoNg9INh0s/TiBRuyt4rQI/AAAAAAAAA6g/3Ijg0Z2tWbA/s1600/wpid-Photo-15072011-0534.jpg


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jul 18 2011, 6:58pm

Post #320 of 401 (4783 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo is a perfect example.

Elijah Wood was far younger and much more 'attractive' than my personal interpretation of Frodo, yet I applaud his casting and his performance. It *is* possible to love the books for giving us our own personal interpretation of the Middle-earth we love, and to love the movies if one believes they were another person's (by and large) successful attempt at giving us their own interpretation. The two don't necessarily cancel each other out.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


Richie Rich
Rivendell


Jul 18 2011, 6:59pm

Post #321 of 401 (4705 views)
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My hero! // [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile



Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 18 2011, 7:00pm

Post #322 of 401 (4789 views)
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No, you misunderstand me [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not like it when people brush aside my views on the supposition that I'm simply following GDT's ideas. The reason I do not like this is that it is not true. However, there are some members who literally respond 'Trust PJ' whenever someone dares to say a word against him. In their case it is not unfair, because it's true. I never said that 'all' PJ supporters are this way if they were, I wouldn't be here but I'm sure you'll agree that the mantra does have a significant number of chanters. You don't see me posting 'Trust GDT' every time someone criticises him. Angelic


Rosebud
The Shire

Jul 18 2011, 7:03pm

Post #323 of 401 (4808 views)
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Armitage casting [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the casting of RA, reinforced by the visuals provided, is indicating that this is not how Thorin's arc will play out in the movie. It appears that Thorin will be more of a proud warrior type and quite possibly a bit more of a "leading man" compared with the old, embittered king in exile of the book.

my concern with the casting of RA is not so much his looks or acting capabilities but rather what it indicates for PJ's interpretation of the character. Something tells me that the real controversy has just begun...


Richie Rich
Rivendell


Jul 18 2011, 7:04pm

Post #324 of 401 (4847 views)
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Flagg, for the love of pete...trust Pete! [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue



Garfeimao
Rohan


Jul 18 2011, 7:04pm

Post #325 of 401 (4727 views)
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Back gate of Moria [In reply to] Can't Post

For the same reason that the Back Gate of Moria was inscribed with a message stating "Speak Friend and Enter" and saying Friend in Elvish was the key.

Elves and Dwarves don't always like each other, but they occasionally work together, or take commissions at least. Bilbo's Mithril coat is said to have been made for a young Elf Lord, since there is little chance it would fit too many Dwarves.

So with Orcrist, either Dwarves made it for an Elf, or Elves made it for a Dwarf, or it was lost in battle and found by Thorin, or any number of other options. The Dwarven runes could have come later in the sword's life.

Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,


Garfeimao
The orange stripey One



Cruise to Middle-earth

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