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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
TheOneRing.net Exclusive: Behold! Thorin Oakenshield and Orcrist!
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Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien


Jul 18 2011, 1:02pm

Post #251 of 401 (8973 views)
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Great Job! [In reply to] Can't Post

Its so nice to see Thorin in perspective along with Gandalf and Bilbo!Smile

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...


ByThorinsBeard
Rohan

Jul 18 2011, 1:04pm

Post #252 of 401 (8997 views)
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well said [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure, I would have liked Thorin to sport a much larger beard, but I'm completely OKAY with his look. To me, Richard has all but nailed the character and that's the most important element. He's perfect in the warrior/arrogant sense and I truly get that he's a dwarf, a very important dwarf. So I'm fine with this representation.

All that muttered, you do make some very valid arguments as to why Thorin would be even more perfect with a fuller beard.

I'm thinking we might learn why his line have short beards, that could mean either youth or something significant to his particular family.


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 18 2011, 1:09pm

Post #253 of 401 (8961 views)
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The Gimli purists [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose part of the reason the people who object to the new dwarf look rally around the film's Gimli apparently as the symbol of purism is more because what people perceive he embodies is closer to Tolkien's intent rather than just that they believe the film's Gimli is the ultimate embodiment of Tolkien's dwarves. Tolkien may not say dwarves have larger head proportions or all have beards down to their knees, but he does in no uncertain terms make it plain that dwarves are universally stocky individuals with significant beards (see duat's post for a bit of a discourse on 'beard politics') and heavy features. People who dislike the new Hobbit dwarf designs tend to fear the motives in making them (particularly Thorin, Fili and Kili) more 'commercial' and so are driven back to the film's Gimli as the antithesis of that marketable image- broad, lumpen, formidably bearded, no heart-throb by any stretch and resolutely himself. It might not be what Tolkien exactly imagined but it is closer we feel to his intent than the lithe, comparatively metrosexual incarnation that we suspect has more to do with marketability than acting-ability.

In addition to that, i think the point of consistency still stands very well (though rarely addressed by the supporters of the new look). I mean isn't it a bit jarring when a film series has an established image of any given character or location and then something happens (usually a change in director) and suddenly they put their new 'spin' on it. Particularly in modern fantasy franchises where being able to 'inhabit' the world is so important to viewers. I know one friend who takes umbrage with the inconsistencies in design in the Harry Potter films (the design of Hogwarts for example- i'm not sure whether it extends to the recasting and reimagining of Dumbledore's look in the wake of Richard Harris' death). It does kind of jar you out of the suspension of disbelief as it would if they had to move the production to Britain for example and find a new hobbiton- personally i would have quite liked it if they brought the Middle-earth films back to 'native soil' since i wasn't convinced wholly with the New Zealand aesthetic (beautiful, but this isn't the landscape Tolkien knew), but i supported The Hobbit remaining in New Zealand because of consistency. So even if changing something would make it 'better', in a running series it should be avoided- if something's inadequate for another chapter in the series you would have hoped they'd have planned ahead.

Of course if consistency had been maintained, the dwarven actors would now be labouring under an inch or so of rubber, and people have made the point that given the dwarves are more central to the story this time around they need as much flexibility as they can get to act and emote. It's a concern, i'll give you, but people have been acting under heavy-makeup for years and i think actors who are truly skilled should be able to- it's not that big an impediment to completely invalidate acting ability. There's also a couple of things in favour of prosthetic acting, in that most characters who require prosthetics are usually fairly impassive types, something especially true of dwarves. By limiting the actor's physical ability to emote you limit the character's emotional ability to emote- you won't get any great screwed up faces and public displays of joy or sadness- you effectively enforce a quality of stoicism upon their performance. That can work extremely powerfully- note how most emotional people tend to cry more with their face than with their eyes? When you see someone who is 'strong' cry, it tends to be quite solitary tears that otherwise go unnoticed on their face- it's heartbreaking. The eyes are another thing- it's one of the great romantic notions of acting that most of it is done with the eyes, one of the few things that goes uncovered by prosthetics. Without the finer twitches in the rest of the face, the performance becomes all about the eyes- Richard Armitage's piercing stare would get no weaker with the rest of his face slathered in hair and rubber. Animals don't have much ability to pull facial expressions and yet 'puppy-dog eyes' is one of the staple cliches for articulating a heart-breaking expression. On the other hand, people frequently claim that they feel cats 'look right through them'. If it is all in the eyes, then it should be. There is an innocence and candor in an animal's inability to emote that actors under prosthetics have utilised for years. Is John Hurt's performance in the Elephant Man more or less powerful for being unable to move most of his face?

So yes, to my eyes i think there would have been great advantages to maintaining the high levels of prosthetics utilised on Gimli- it might not have been perfect but i think it would have produced a more accurate depiction of dwarfdom than all these closely-trimmed and markedly prostheticless newbies.

Dr Death


Hengist
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 18 2011, 1:10pm

Post #254 of 401 (8932 views)
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Perhaps they have [In reply to] Can't Post

sworn to keep their beards short until they have regained Erebor, as a prominent mark of their shame/vow?


" So let me get this straight. You want to fly on a magic carpet to see the King of the Potato People and plead with him for your freedom, and you're telling me you're completely sane? "


dormouse
Half-elven

Jul 18 2011, 1:11pm

Post #255 of 401 (8917 views)
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That's hideous, Flagg [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, nicely done, but hideous.

He looks more likely to burst into tears than try to reclaim his ancient kingdom. You've made me even more certain than I was before that they got this right!


(This post was edited by dormouse on Jul 18 2011, 1:12pm)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 18 2011, 1:13pm

Post #256 of 401 (9297 views)
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Congratulations! TORn...Wow! the world is a better place with you all... [In reply to] Can't Post

here beleiveing, praying, making my life a better! as well as the rest of the many many, Hobbits WorldWIDE! I'm in tears, thank you, my hood and cloak go off to you...I'm not worthy of knowing you...xoxoxOLD Bombadil


Spencissimus
Lorien


Jul 18 2011, 1:24pm

Post #257 of 401 (9025 views)
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A stroke of genius, Hengist! [In reply to] Can't Post

If there is to be any in-film explanation for the length of Thorin's beard, then I hope it's your suggestion! Not only does it make sense, but it is also somewhat founded in Tolkien lore. In any case, I love that dwarves as we know them have been redefined with this dirty baker's dozen!


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 18 2011, 1:29pm

Post #258 of 401 (8888 views)
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That's because he happened to be frowning and I couldn't find a better picture. [In reply to] Can't Post

Somehow I doubt that this particular expression would have been fixed permanently on his face had be been cast as Thorin.


Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien


Jul 18 2011, 1:31pm

Post #259 of 401 (8971 views)
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Looks like we had better start preparing the casket for this guy [In reply to] Can't Post

WinkSly

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Jul 18 2011, 1:36pm

Post #260 of 401 (8910 views)
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The elves joking about Thorin... [In reply to] Can't Post

..."not watering his beard" and Tolkien clear description of Thorin as older than Balin (who is described as very old and with a long, white beard) suggests that Tolkien's Thorin would look far older than PJ's. The fact that not one artist has depicted Thorin with a very short beard, and with the youth of Armitage, is telling.

I will, however, reserve judgment, as I don't mind Armitage's look.


Ececheira
Bree


Jul 18 2011, 1:36pm

Post #261 of 401 (8889 views)
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Sorry if this oversteps the mark but... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, we get it. We know you are unhappy about Richard Armitage's casting, and the appearance of Thorin and some of the other dwarves, but please...have mercy on the rest of us. You have said your piece on multiple occasions and it's understood. Believe me - it's understood. You don't need to keep repeating yourself, at length.

Time to change the record perhaps, at least until there is something new to go on....


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 18 2011, 1:40pm

Post #262 of 401 (8892 views)
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It's nice but [In reply to] Can't Post

Given that you've chosen the film's streamline Thorin and a decidedly hangdog-expressioned McShane picture, it doesn't work quite as well as the Richard Armitage one (i mean that in terms of simply that picture- this is not an endorsement of Armitage as Thorin). I'd be tempted to pick a fiercer McShane picture (this classic scowl for instance: http://ology.com/...e/Ian_McShane4_0.jpg or this rather more curious expression http://www.blogcdn.com/...08/07/71285958_8.jpg) or a different dwarf (i did think Oin might make a decent base but there are others- i always thought him on the left of the picture of this post would be a good base for Thorin http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=375756#375756 but the middle one would look just as good particularly given his greyness). You could even cut out the Orcrist from the official picture, put it on end and just have it poking onto the screen (even resting on his far shoulder...)

Dr Death


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 18 2011, 1:41pm

Post #263 of 401 (8937 views)
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He is an heirless 195-year-old Dwarven monarch struggling to reclaim his kingdom before he dies. [In reply to] Can't Post

In other words – yes.


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 18 2011, 1:43pm

Post #264 of 401 (8896 views)
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It does a bit [In reply to] Can't Post

Since i was replying to a single specific person, and you do not have to read my post (particularly if you view in threaded form, though i prefer flat). It's one thing to disagree with someone, it's another thing to tell them to shut up because you chose to read their post.

Dr Death


Dlanor da Great
Rivendell

Jul 18 2011, 1:46pm

Post #265 of 401 (8938 views)
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Cheer up [In reply to] Can't Post

 I think that all the people complaining that some Dwarves dont look Dwarvish enough, need to cheer up and remember that out of the 13 Dwarves, you can argue that 9 of them are very Dwarvish looking and The army of thousands of Dwarves at the battle of the 5 armies ,including Dain, are likely to be extremely Dwarvish ,since they are not main characters, and will have battle armor much like Gimli. Plus ,possible flashbacks of other Dwarves ,possibly in prologues, May in fact be Dwarvish also. So, as far as im concerned, 3-4 Dwarves looking Un-Dwarvish is nothing compared to the hundreds or thousands we may see in the movie that are familiar looking Dwarves.Tongue


dormouse
Half-elven

Jul 18 2011, 1:49pm

Post #266 of 401 (8969 views)
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I'm afraid there wouldn't have been a picture [In reply to] Can't Post

... that would have convinced me. That 'hang-dog' expression with the big pouchy eyes is how Ian McShane looks these days, in any photo, and it's not how I see Thorin. This is just how I feel about it. Just me. Not trying to force it on anyone else but I'm really glad they didn't cast him.


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Jul 18 2011, 1:50pm

Post #267 of 401 (8857 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

Balin and Dwalin fit Tolkien's descriptions better than Gimli or Gloin. I would be happiest with a set of Balin or Dwalin-esque dwarves, in terms of proportions.


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 18 2011, 1:53pm

Post #268 of 401 (8949 views)
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Balin maybe [In reply to] Can't Post

Dwalin, not so much. For me his proportions and look just kind of conjures image of Little-John. As for Balin, while at first i thought it was endearing, the 'Garden Gnome' resemblance is beginning to grate me now- particularly with the distinctively un-dwarven shoes.

Dr Death


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Jul 18 2011, 1:56pm

Post #269 of 401 (9162 views)
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And there are plenty of people... [In reply to] Can't Post

...who have repeated their bits about how Armitage's Thorin looks just right.

Please, lets not admonish people for stating their opinions, and doing so thoroughly. If you're not interested, just ignore it.


Hengist
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 18 2011, 2:00pm

Post #270 of 401 (8859 views)
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This forum welcomes all [In reply to] Can't Post

points of view as long as civility is maintained. If you do not like a certain posters point of view then I suggest that you do not read their posts. It is not appropriate for you to tell people what they can or can not post


" So let me get this straight. You want to fly on a magic carpet to see the King of the Potato People and plead with him for your freedom, and you're telling me you're completely sane? "


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Jul 18 2011, 2:03pm

Post #271 of 401 (8866 views)
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I'm not sure I understand... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Tolkien never quite describes the exact nature of dwarven "shoes."
2. Tolkien never talks about proportions that are evident in Gimli and Co.

I see what you're saying about Dwalin and Balin's 'specific' looks, though, but I was talking about proportions and general facial characteristics. Smoother, non-lumpy latex faces, with generally normal body proportions, but longer beards than Dwalin's (and 'not bald), are what I was looking for.

The "Gimli dwarf" looks supremely awkward, is very unnatural, and is just plain difficult to watch. Not to mention the even more bloated LOTR film dwarves linked to somewhere else in this thread.

-GM


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Jul 18 2011, 2:04pm

Post #272 of 401 (8808 views)
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Amen... [In reply to] Can't Post

I never understood why opinions about film and art are seen as threatening...


ShireHorse
Rohan

Jul 18 2011, 2:05pm

Post #273 of 401 (8838 views)
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Ah, yes, but will PJ show him as 195? [In reply to] Can't Post

There has been some mention on recent threads about the way PJ contracted time at the beginning of FotR, with Gandalf visiting the hobbit hole and then returning quite speedily, unlike the long gap in the book. This explains why Frodo is portrayed as being very young.

In the paragraph under the Thorin photo, we have a reference to the "young prince Thorin" and the question is, how young? If they do a back story, will they employ a child actor or will they contract the amount of time between the coming of Smaug and Thorin's meeting with Gandalf with Armitage playing his younger self both at the attack on the Lonely Mountain and the Battle of Azanulbizar? He could easily play a 30 year old (in human terms) for his younger self (see the images of him that someone posted of his Captain America interview) and if all his back story is squashed closer together, then this not only explains why Thorin looks only 50+ but also explains why they employed a younger actor to play both ends of this shorter life span.

I don't remember the arguments about Frodo's age. Were they vicious, LOL?

And, just to rub things in, will his younger self look just like Kili (even louder laughter)? Doubtless, this is an image that PJ will hug close to his chest.


Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor


Jul 18 2011, 2:08pm

Post #274 of 401 (8858 views)
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Thorin in the cold light of morning...*eyes glaze over* [In reply to] Can't Post

*squee!*

Sorry, I went there. I can't help it.

Angelic



And suddenly the Tornadoes saw afar off a greenlight, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame;
and they knew that this was no vision only, but that PJ had made a new thing: The Hobbit, the Film that Is.


edinlin
Registered User

Jul 18 2011, 2:08pm

Post #275 of 401 (8795 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

 Sooo happy we have PJ's vision of Thorin.

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