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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Balin and Dwalin Photo
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bookgirl13
Lorien


Jul 15 2011, 12:49pm

Post #76 of 351 (7003 views)
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The use of the term 'purist' [In reply to] Can't Post

It is difficult to think of ways to refer to some of the more vehemently expressed feelings that have appeared on this board, which have found PJ's take on the dwarves problematic. And the strength of such feelings have made it less easy to post contrary views, even though diversity of views are welcomed on the board.

Many of the objections, as you say, stem from an focus on the book and an interpretation that differs from PJ's (using him as a shorthand for the studio, production team, writers etc). I took the use of the term 'purist' to be an easily understood and a not entirely inappropriate shorthand rather than being an insult. But perhaps the term has additional meanings that I am unaware of? I know that terms that are acceptable in England are not necessarily outside the country, and vice versa.

Bearing in mind some of the stereotyping that has been flung by a few towards those who have been more accepting or less condemning of the dwarves as they've been presented, then I find the use of the term 'purist' less objectionable than other terms that have been used.


ShireHorse
Rohan

Jul 15 2011, 12:52pm

Post #77 of 351 (6943 views)
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I didn't notice you being insulting, Delrond. [In reply to] Can't Post

In fact, it was me who first used the word "purist" and I thought at first that KS was talking to me.

I also wasn't using the word in an insulting way. If some Tolkien fans are keen to see the films produced in exactly the way that Tolkien wrote the story then I stand by their right to state that on this forum and to debate their attitudes with others who don't have the same approach. Neither am I claiming that they are wrong, only different in their approach from mine. Time for a bit of respect on both sides of the divide, I think.


(This post was edited by ShireHorse on Jul 15 2011, 12:55pm)


architecthis
Lorien


Jul 15 2011, 12:56pm

Post #78 of 351 (6937 views)
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Perfect [In reply to] Can't Post

These guys look awesome!


bookgirl13
Lorien


Jul 15 2011, 12:57pm

Post #79 of 351 (6983 views)
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I don't really want to revive them ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... But I find that hard to believe. There have been several posts on other threads that I have found objectionable, and I have responded saying that I found them so, as did others.

But perhaps you were just commenting about the quality of posts on this particular thread? In which case, I agree with you, there have been no 'nasty sexist attacks on women' here. Let's hope that it remains that way.


Oiotįri
Tol Eressea


Jul 15 2011, 12:58pm

Post #80 of 351 (6911 views)
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I don't see "purist" so much as an insult [In reply to] Can't Post

as a one-word explanation which is used to explain away people's views (eg: "you just think that because you're a purist") and frankly it irritates me that often we use the word "purist" instead of taking the time to compose a logical argument.


..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.

..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar


Phibbus
Rohan


Jul 15 2011, 1:01pm

Post #81 of 351 (6897 views)
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Purist? [In reply to] Can't Post

Far too weak! I invoke Godwin's Law and declare myself a Text-Nazi! (Book-Fascist is also acceptable.)

I don't mind the curly toes, though. I think Balin developed his fondness for them during those lean years when he took jobs sneaking into cobblers' houses to mysteriously finish their work.


Oiotįri
Tol Eressea


Jul 15 2011, 1:04pm

Post #82 of 351 (6853 views)
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Ah, yes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't mind the curly toes, though. I think Balin developed his fondness for them during those lean years when he took jobs sneaking into cobblers' houses to mysteriously finish their work.


Clearly the only logical explanation!
Good one Phibbus Sly



..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.

..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar


ShireHorse
Rohan

Jul 15 2011, 1:11pm

Post #83 of 351 (6820 views)
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Great terms, Phibbus! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Far too weak! I invoke Godwin's Law and declare myself a Text-Nazi! (Book-Fascist is also acceptable.


I'll remember these when I get the urge to use "purist" in future, LOL!


architecthis
Lorien


Jul 15 2011, 1:11pm

Post #84 of 351 (6826 views)
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Could not agree more... [In reply to] Can't Post

These two are my favorite, Balin is the quintessential Dwarf and Dwalin is just awesome.. this is what I've been waiting for

and now I cannot wait to see Thorin, and I think he will be the ultimate "bad-ass"


Oiotįri
Tol Eressea


Jul 15 2011, 1:11pm

Post #85 of 351 (6880 views)
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Ready?... [In reply to] Can't Post

...ZOOM



Couldn't help myself Angelic


..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.

..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 15 2011, 1:12pm

Post #86 of 351 (6861 views)
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Well met. [In reply to] Can't Post

I am both the worst sort of purist when it comes to Tolkin's writing and an impure fellow when it comes to adaptation of the material to cinema. I am not so worried about the physical appearances of the characters as what those appearances mean for the heart of the story. I do bend in the wind a bit because I have not decided exactly what my life will mean. I have spent a great deal of my existence contemplating Tolkien's writings, probably more than I should have, but I still have not reached a point where I can say that I understand. I do know that I want the adaptation of the Hobbit to remain true to the spirit of the book and the extent that it diverges and becomes something else is felt by me as a loss.
I do so I love learning and have done a great deal of that here (Such a diverse group drawn to one man's creation.) but sometimes it is hard to understand where someone is coming from when they use potentially loaded terms without explanation. I can do polemic with the best of them but rants only vent the emotions and the only thing that is learned from them is that the ranter really really cares about something.

So pardon the ramble. I have got to hop back up on my fence.Wink

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 15 2011, 1:22pm

Post #87 of 351 (6791 views)
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Sorry It was I that caused the confusion [In reply to] Can't Post

and I do not want my objection to the use of the term "purist" to be viewed as an accusation but as a sign of frustration. It is a slippery fish and its use is problematic without definition. I do however object to ":purest" being used as a term of derision (not saying that you did) without owning what it means.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 15 2011, 1:23pm

Post #88 of 351 (6819 views)
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10-4 Good Buddy!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



ShireHorse
Rohan

Jul 15 2011, 1:27pm

Post #89 of 351 (6902 views)
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Thank you very much for trying to explain yourself, KS. [In reply to] Can't Post

I now feel that I understand you a TINY bit better, LOL!

And I shall apologise again for not understanding just how loaded the word "purist" is. I obviously missed the arguments. I shall also be really happy if I feel that PJ has captured the spirit of the book.


bookgirl13
Lorien


Jul 15 2011, 1:29pm

Post #90 of 351 (6798 views)
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Awesome [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Far too weak! I invoke Godwin's Law and declare myself a Text-Nazi! (Book-Fascist is also acceptable.)



Zizix
Rivendell


Jul 15 2011, 1:30pm

Post #91 of 351 (6788 views)
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Nice! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm really fond of these two though Oin and Gloin are still my favourite.

First I thought Dwalin was wearing his belt on his chest but I now realize that's his hammer Wink


Quote
A powerful and bruising fighter, with a natural tendency to distrust anyone who is not a Dwarf, particularly anyone who might be an Elf, Dwalin is not someone to cross lightly.

Kili? Tongue
I am intrigued whether there really are going to be any characters that -might- be an Elf.


Delrond
Rohan


Jul 15 2011, 1:35pm

Post #92 of 351 (6761 views)
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KS, [In reply to] Can't Post

While I haven't been posting here for a long time, I have been lurking through the whole site for years as soon as news of a potential TH movie came about. Only recently have I read the forum more closely, so I was unaware of the potential sensitivity to the term "purist". Very succinctly, to me it means make the movie as it is written in the book. No shoehorned subplots, invented characters, or overall tonal shifts away from what Tolkien intended. I can enjoy the movies as a blend of this + PJ's creativity. The whole Aragorn/Arwen emphasis in LOTR was, to me, way overemphasized, but it still worked in the context of the movie. That doesn't mean I'll accept Monty Python's Flying Circus and call it TH - I do have limits here. Sorry for the ramble as well...

Things are now in motion that cannot be undone.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 15 2011, 1:37pm

Post #93 of 351 (6797 views)
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Balin is second in command to Thorin [In reply to] Can't Post

and it is his respect for Bilbo that helps turn the others opinions toward the favorable.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 15 2011, 1:42pm

Post #94 of 351 (6771 views)
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Depends on the intent really [In reply to] Can't Post

I personally quite welcome the term purist, i think it reflects the broad camp in which i stand- i want something that reflects the books in terms of character and depiction. However i'm not a 'diehard' purist- i don't reject the films as inherently useless because they do not adhere to the book. In terms of the books descriptions frankly they're either as broad as the cold readings from a psychic 'I'm getting the name....John. Is there a John in the room?' or aesthetically dodgy (Tolkien may have drawn, but he was no designerCrazy), so some of the details that Tolkien invested in his descriptions are best adapted or ignored. I'm also what you might call a film purist in so far as i liked pretty much everything about the look of Jackson's original trilogy and one of the primary appeals of his directorship was the consistency i believed it would entail. I'm not saying i wanted 13 dwarves who all looked like Gimli, but 13 dwarves who were all proportioned like him i thought was a given with PJ at the helm and the fact it hasn't been has left me rather miffed.

Getting away from the purely visual elements of being a purist, in terms of the script i am very much a book purist. I believe Tolkien knew the nature of his characters in terms of personality, arc and motivations better than Peter Jackson, and knowing what i do of Peter Jackson's adapting method which provided us with a few dud choices (xenophobic Elrond, reluctant Theoden, crazed Denethor and a Frodo that ends up mistrusting his Sam) as well as a very near miss (20-something Aragorn) i have an eye out for where history may end up repeating itself and if there is any decision made that i don't feel has full and proper justification, i'm going to tell you why. Unfortunately that does make me one of the great grumblers, and obviously pessimism does tend to bring the mood down, but it's not like i enjoy being pessimistic about it- i wish i had every reason to feel hopeful, but as the evidence comes in, obviously opinions get stated. In the defence of grumblers we do try and join in with the merriment when things really do ring our bells. I also believe that pessimists actually work harder to justify their beliefs and that does make me a little bitter- it seems that if you say 'you like it' you don't have to justify it any more than that- your approval allegedly speaks for itself and few people define the grounds on which they like something in terms of the book or in terms of their image of Middle-earth. When you disapprove it's actually a bit of a palaver since it's not socially sufficient just to say 'i hate it' and move on- makes you sound like a malcontent or worse a spammer, instead there's pressure both internal and external to find the evidence. Why don't similarly unexplained positive responses require an equal level of justification? It's a strange kind of imbalance if you look at it. Lets take Kili's proportions- if you dislike them your opinion doesn't seem valid unless you've provided categorical proof that dwarves are stumpy- quotes, references, the lot, and yet if you're fine with them you're allowed to just leave it at that with no further justification for your opinion (Presumably because that's what they are and yar boo sucks to those who dislike them- it ain't gonna change). Where's the justice?

So can the cheery brigade appreciate how expressing legitimate opinions might be a bit of a thankless task for the horrible old cynics? You might tell us not to bother but then our complaints will just be swept away- no-one listens to complaints if they can help it- they're such downers. My recommendation would be to encourage those who would otherwise write a one line praise to instead do a similar amount of research, and then we might see who's the vocal minorityAngelic. In fact that's it! That's the reason! All the silent cynics who don't have the time to waste arguing their opinions!

Malcontented essayists unite- we've got work to do!

Dr Death


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 15 2011, 1:49pm

Post #95 of 351 (6769 views)
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I love Eeyore too! [In reply to] Can't Post

and I do enjoy a good grumble. At least you take the time to explain what you mean. Wink

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Alassėa Eruvande
Valinor


Jul 15 2011, 1:57pm

Post #96 of 351 (6738 views)
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I like these guys. [In reply to] Can't Post

They look very wise and sensible. Bilbo will be in good hands. Smile



And suddenly the Tornadoes saw afar off a greenlight, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame;
and they knew that this was no vision only, but that PJ had made a new thing: The Hobbit, the Film that Is.


RoseCotton
Lorien


Jul 15 2011, 1:59pm

Post #97 of 351 (6732 views)
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In good hands... [In reply to] Can't Post

... until Dwalin drops him in the goblin tunnels when he makes a run for it? Evil


dormouse
Half-elven

Jul 15 2011, 2:22pm

Post #98 of 351 (6652 views)
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I'd just like to cheer this post, Eregyrn [In reply to] Can't Post

... because you've said something I've tried to say here many times, and said it better.

Quote
There's a lot of things about the LOTR films that didn't match the ways I had long imagined the world and its characters. But I enjoyed the new ways it made me look at some of the material, and in many cases, they managed to capture something in a way that was better than I had been imagining it.


I've known the books around the same length of time as you have and my initial reaction to the previous films - which I found out about just a few months before Fellowship was released was a mixture of curiosity and dismay. From the pre-release publicity I could see they'd made changes, added characters, made characters do things I knew they weren't supposed to do, made them look quite different and I didn't like that. It took me a while to discover that if I embraced the films on their own terms - as you would an illustration, or a dramatisation, or someone else's point of view in a discussion - it was enjoyable and could challenge and enrich the way I saw the stories.

That's how I'm approaching these films. I'm not dismayed by the idea of a different-looking Thorin because his story and personality and the presence he has in the group are more important to me than what he looks like. I believe that they've chosen an actor who can bring those qualities to life far more effectively than some of the other actors who've been mentioned. I don't know, but that's what I think and expect, and I'm keen to see what they come up with - in the writing and acting as well as in the wig, costume and make-up.

As for the dwarves, overall I like Balin and Dwalin very much. Not so keen on the curly toes but that's minor. Thorin apart, and possibly Balin, I've never developed much of an impression of them from the book so it's interesting to be shown them as individuals and to get away from the garden gnome/ Snow White image. At the moment the one I like least is Bombur. I was a bit taken aback by Kili at first but like you I'm intrigued to see how he fits in - in fact, I'm not prepared to condemn anything on the strength of a few Photoshopped promotional photos. I want to see how they handle the issues of scale and proportion on film, how the parts are written and how the dwarves interact when they're all together. We have such a long way to go yet.


eralkfang
Lorien


Jul 15 2011, 2:23pm

Post #99 of 351 (6650 views)
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Huh! [In reply to] Can't Post

Balin looks great, but Dwalin really steals the show here. He looks like an dwarven action hero.

And I think he does in fact have tattoos on his head—we we wondering about that in the Entertainment Weekly photo.


redgiraffe
Rohan

Jul 15 2011, 2:25pm

Post #100 of 351 (6670 views)
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By the way I think Oriental is a little racist [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think the proper word is Oriental or... chinaman for that reason. Maybe racist isn't the right word. I don't think they go by it though.... but maybe we could be talking about the rug :)

Chinaman is NOT the preferred nomenclature.... Asian-American, pleeeease.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle

(This post was edited by redgiraffe on Jul 15 2011, 2:33pm)

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