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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Fili and Kili
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DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 13 2011, 11:37am

Post #426 of 601 (13085 views)
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It's not that they're attractive that's the problem [In reply to] Can't Post

Both Liv Tyler and Miranda Otto are attractive women but they're hardly the kind of women who push everybody's buttons. I think Liv Tyler is a terrific actress and her performance in LotR really did make me sit up and take notice of her, but her face is a bit long and horsey for my tastes, and as for Miranda Otto, while she looks lovely as herself, she was a bit hard-featured and po-faced as Eowyn to illicit any kind of hubba hubba response. Being as it is set in the days of modern make-up (and the film following by and large) Lord of the Rings really isn't the place men go to get their rocks off. On the other hand, there's a lot to recommend it to women- in Middle-earth there are men for all tastes- tall and slender, short and stocky or anything in between, rugged men's men or smooth ladies' men. Pretty boys and bits of rough, lean and mean or comforting and cuddly. Knights in armour or rebels with causes. Emotional wounds make the ladies swoon. All wrapped up in the romantic setting of beautiful scenery and spiritual fulfillment.

In Lord of the Rings such diversity of thinking woman's totty was fine- i found it greatly amusing how each year more and more heart-throb material would emerge from cultures new because it fell more or less in line with what Tolkien wrote- of course Aragorn was going to be dark moody and handsome, of course Boromir would be like a modern day military officer, reflecting on the horrors of war and struggling to cope with less simple more political matters. Of course Legolas would be tall, blonde and pretty. There wasn't an issue and i was perfectly happy with that.

With The Hobbit however there is not that same range of totty and i didn't initially see any reason why people would try to shoe-horn some in. There were a couple of roles which would be acceptable for some eye-candy- Bard and Thranduil, and Bilbo would probably not be wholly uneasy on the eye (i even endorsed Colin Firth's assignment to the role, knowing he could play the part fantastically and still bring in the ladies from his pride and prejudice days), but the dwarves were ultimately not going to be a place where those with modern generic preferences would get their kicks (that said if the homosexual bear community latched onto it, fair play- that's their prerogative- there's something for everyone). However, now we've seen the finished job on Kili this does feel like a betrayal. I can see no earthly reason other than cynically appeasing the lowest common denominator to abandon every shred of the dwarven aesthetic. I would happily go chasing through the books again for the evidence to confirm Tolkien's depictions of dwarves as being more than just small humans in appearance but it would not do any good. One of the first things i learnt about philosophy and arguing is that a person who refuses to acknowledge grounds on which they can be proved wrong can never be proved right, and the reaction of some females to this picture confirm my suspicions i had from the moment when all these willowy young men were announced. How about you go chasing through the books to confirm your hypothesis instead? If you can find me one example of a dwarf being described (without qualification- i.e. not to other dwarves but to human or elven females) as handsome maybe i'll soften....

Dr Death


(This post was edited by Altaira on Jul 13 2011, 7:20pm)


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 13 2011, 11:39am

Post #427 of 601 (13131 views)
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You can see his uncle in him [In reply to] Can't Post

Because Richard Armitage is a modern, rakish, tall, dark, stubbly type too.

Dr Death


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 13 2011, 11:44am

Post #428 of 601 (12985 views)
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Hopefully they have the wisdom not to take it personally [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a great deal of time for Aidan Turner- he seemed like a perfectly amiable and not in the least bit vain bloke in the press-conference. It's not ultimately his fault that 'the powers that be' decided to capitalise on his inadvertent good looks and rob him of all dwarvishness. Perhaps he might have objected, but ultimately it's a case of 'PJ's the boss' so you can't blame him for not protesting too loudly when they shaved down his mighty beard and decided Kili should have Sandra Bullock's hair. That doesn't soften my stance on the decisions made about the appearance of his character.

Dr Death


RaoulJ
Rivendell


Jul 13 2011, 11:50am

Post #429 of 601 (13028 views)
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Couldn't say it better. I agree. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for your insights, Sometimes I skip texts but I always read yours. Thanks!


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 13 2011, 12:00pm

Post #430 of 601 (12911 views)
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Perhaps not the worst case in terms of everything that could happen [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean technically there are countless things that could have happened- they could have been played as actual children, or female, or removed altogether or been ice-skating mongeese, but in terms of the 'worst of all possible worlds' given that they were included and the roles were cast with men who were out of puberty, this comes pretty high on the list of what could go wrong. In fact i'm not sure i wouldn't have preferred a pubescent Fili and Kili- if they were kids with weird kind of patchy beards and puppy fat, at least that would have been a take on the youth of them, instead we have got the most generic hunk in a parka you could imagine. It's pretty catastrophic (within it's context) if you ask me.

Dr Death


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Jul 13 2011, 12:02pm

Post #431 of 601 (13014 views)
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I always enjoy reading your posts bud... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I can see why some of the ladies get their feathers ruffled, especially with some of the gender generalizations that you throw out, like the ones in your last paragraph. I guess I mean to say that if you want your opinions to be taken more seriously, then you have to be careful what your saying, and know your audience. I know I have to watch myself sometimes too, I forget where I'm at once in a while. It happens to us all.

"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak

(This post was edited by Maiarmike on Jul 13 2011, 12:04pm)


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 13 2011, 12:12pm

Post #432 of 601 (13062 views)
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No point beating around the bush when you can see straight through it [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope people who read my posts appreciate that i am desperately trying (both for the sake of my argument and with the utmost sincerity) to offend as few people as possible, but there are times when you have to press your accusations through the denial. If someone is in court and you lay the accusation of murder in front of them, if they think they can get away with it of course they will deny it. Not to liken fangirls (i.e. in this case those who defend the 'dwarfiness' of Kili's look) to murderers, but in terms of murdering a fictional character they're a bit like a bent juryAngelic

Dr Death


dave_lf
Gondor

Jul 13 2011, 12:18pm

Post #433 of 601 (12983 views)
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Have to [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I mean there is a good 1 and a half year left until the release of the first film !!! Shocked



They probably want to make sure they release them officially and on their own terms before they leak out on their own. Plus, if they were trying to keep the dwarves' appearances secret, it would be extremely difficult to release any photos or videos from the set. Now the door is open!


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Jul 13 2011, 12:37pm

Post #434 of 601 (12954 views)
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They probably wanted to release something around Comic-Con... [In reply to] Can't Post

They might show some more at the convention, i don't think anything major, though. That will have to wait till next year.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 13 2011, 12:40pm

Post #435 of 601 (12911 views)
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Wait... so Estrogen Island and Testosterone Tower are real forum events? [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought they were simply terms used to describe the reaction of certain members to the cast. Well, the more you know... Angelic


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 13 2011, 12:44pm

Post #436 of 601 (12941 views)
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O'Gorman is the one with Golden hair? [In reply to] Can't Post

Works for me.


dormouse
Half-elven

Jul 13 2011, 12:55pm

Post #437 of 601 (12941 views)
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Not sure how far 'trying to offend' comes into it.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... isn't it more a case of 'Sorry if anyone is offended, but....' ? [Meaning, I'm going to do it anyway...] Wink

Thing is, DrDeath, you've made it pretty clear how you feel on these matters and it always seems to come down to... 'women are brainless' > 'anyone who disagrees with me is brainless' >'ergo: anyone who disagrees with me is probably a woman so need not be taken seriously' . 'Fangirl' used as a term of abuse towards anyone who doesn't share your opinion - in this case on Kili - is just plain rude. Do you know that all the posters who've said they like Kili's appearance are female? Or that all those who don't are male? Or that the only possible reason they can have for reacting positively is that they fancy him? You don't - you can't, so why do it?

This is probably pointless but I'll say it anyway - there are posters out there less obdurate than you. It doesn't have to come down to whether you fancy the actor or not. There are other good, rational criteria for judging the character designs. For me, in that photograph, Kili doesn't look like a dwarf. At least, not like any dwarf I've ever imagined - I can't presume to speak for the rest of creation. I doubt very much if he's anything like the Kili Tolkien imagined either.

But, he is Kili in film of 'The Hobbit', or he will be when the time comes. Whatever any of us think of it, however differently we might have chosen to do it, he is the Kili we'll see on screen. We can either gnash our teeth about that or we can look for reasons to accept the idea and get used to it. I choose the second option. Not because I fancy him [you may find this hard to believe but we don't automatically fall for anything in trousers. Or in this case, very large boots.] Just because I've waited for these films a long time and I want to go on enjoying the wait. And I know that this is only one photograph - so much is going to depend on the writing and the acting, about which we know nothing.


ShireHorse
Rohan

Jul 13 2011, 12:56pm

Post #438 of 601 (12918 views)
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Dr D, it always comes back to Richard Armitage [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Because Richard Armitage is a modern, rakish, tall, dark, stubbly type too.

Dr Death


Is he? Well, perhaps in the extracts you've been watching. But, as I've already mentioned, he's a character actor and doesn't always look that way. I notice you passed no comment on his appearance in the latest PJ video where he has very short brown hair, a greying beard, a big nose and pointy ears. (Not many prosthetics needed there, then! And not exactly a pretty boy.) The following with thanks to RANet (and apologies if it doesn't work, but you know the shot I mean.)

http://www.richardarmitagenet.com/images/gallery/Hobbit/2ndVideoBlog/album/Video2-RA03.jpg

And although I'm a follower of Being Human, I'm not too sure about AT as Kili either for all the reasons that others have given. But I expect he'll grow on me because I always give people a chance.


(This post was edited by ShireHorse on Jul 13 2011, 12:57pm)


Sunflower
Valinor

Jul 13 2011, 1:18pm

Post #439 of 601 (12909 views)
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Didn't think of that. [In reply to] Can't Post

It makes sense. Teenage rebellion! Knowing it would tick his parents' generation off mightily, he adopts an Elvish look. (Be interesting to note if Elrond will have any visible reaction written into the script.)
Now I wish that Kili would survive. He'd def. not be one of the wifeless Dwarves....


Well, it seems we are in for a cinematic first: a hottie Dwarf. Wonder what The Professor's reaction was to this pic! He's probably sitting up there in Heaven smoking a pipe, with a bemused twinkle in his eyeSmile


redgiraffe
Rohan

Jul 13 2011, 1:30pm

Post #440 of 601 (12813 views)
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I agree with you doormouse [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm slowly starting to come around to them while seeing them in the lineup of the other dwarves. The shock factor was kind of a big deal for me but I think when I look at the pic they slowly look more and more like part of the group

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
Rohan

Jul 13 2011, 1:30pm

Post #441 of 601 (12780 views)
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I agree with you doormouse [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm slowly starting to come around to them while seeing them in the lineup of the other dwarves. The shock factor was kind of a big deal for me but I think when I look at the pic they slowly look more and more like part of the group

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 13 2011, 1:31pm

Post #442 of 601 (13010 views)
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Bill and Ted embark on their most bodacious adventure yet [In reply to] Can't Post

http://img29.imageshack.us/...9/3887/dwarvesbt.jpg


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Jul 13 2011, 1:48pm

Post #443 of 601 (12801 views)
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Sounds like... [In reply to] Can't Post

...bad fanfiction. We are talking about a film based on a book by JRR Tolkien, right?

I don't love PJ's style, but I don't think he'll take the concept that far. Turner will certainly be a little rebellious, vain and immature, but to play him as the equivalent of a modern teen would be disastrous.


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Jul 13 2011, 1:52pm

Post #444 of 601 (12758 views)
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Right... [In reply to] Can't Post

And does a beard automatically make one unattractive?

I haven't heard many women complain about a bearded Clooney or Sean Connery, for example...Why should they not accept a bearded Turner?


Laerasyn
Bree


Jul 13 2011, 1:53pm

Post #445 of 601 (12834 views)
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Dwarven ideas of beauty [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
To me, this shows the real progression of the dwarf lifespan if you will. I could totally see young dwarves starting out fairly "normal" looking, just small(and to be honest the only thing we really know about Tolkien's dwarves is they have beards and they are short and kind of stocky, other than that there is no reason to think they aren't as individual as humans are and some humans are sort of squat and ugly and some are tall and beautiful and some are small and beautiful and some are tall and ugly, etc, etc, etc).

Aule was after originally making them to be similar to Iluvatar's creations, IIRC - Elves and Men(actually didn't dwarves come before Men? I can't remember but I supposed the Valar knew men were coming some day by that point), he didn't set out to make squat little rough guys, they just didn't turn out quite how he planned them too, because he didn't have Iluvatar's abilities. So I'd imagine they might look alright to start and then sort of start looking more stereotypically "dwarvish" as they age.

To be honest I tend to think that the Gimli-like dwarves are probably considered the hotties of the dwarf world and while we may think "Oh look at Kili and Fili, how adorable" they are probably thought of as being not great looking by OTHER dwarves(at least not yet, they are, at this point in their lives, basically little more than teenagers) . Sort of like Marilyn from The Munsters. LOL (If anyone hasn't seen it, it's a comedy from the 60's based on the idea of Frankenstein's monster, Dracula, dracula's daughter being a family with the monster and the daughter's son being a wolf boy - they have a young niece who lives with them named Marilyn who is very pretty blonde girl, to human eyes, but they are always feeling bad for her because, to their eyes, she's very plain. :) )

Basically I could even see it being played for a bit of a joke, about how the "goodlooking" dwarves are actually "ugly".

Though I guess maybe this explains all that ribbing Aidan Turner took about "sex appeal" in that charity video. :)



I actually really like that idea about the "pretty" dwarves being considered ugly by dwarf standards. I can see it being played for quite a few laughs; it fits with PJ's humour style. Marilyn Munster indeed! Cool

I also anticipate many jokes about their lack of proper beards.

'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'



DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 13 2011, 2:12pm

Post #446 of 601 (12739 views)
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Let me clear something up [In reply to] Can't Post

I have not got anything against women, not in the slightest, not in the least, not in any fashion what so ever.


Quote
it always seems to come down to... 'women are brainless' > 'anyone who disagrees with me is brainless' >'ergo: anyone who disagrees with me is probably a woman so need not be taken seriously'


Such a misinterpretation of my attitudes are tantamount to slander and i find such an interpretation as deeply offensive, possibly even a willful misinterpretation in the point i am trying to make. Yes, it is a point about the female reaction to these pictures, but that does not mean i am tarring the whole female race with the accusation- there are plenty of women who have posted here that hold opinions that i agree with. However, the vast majority of those who have responded positively to this (as opposed to negatively or with concern) have been female (according to their profiles) and have without any irony it seems defended the decision purely on the grounds of how it appeals to their particular predilections. I apologise if allowing that kind of public sexual appreciation is considered essential to feminism, but if it's any consolation i find it just as repugnant in the 'lads mag' culture. Women have been fighting for years to be taken as more than just sexual objects and yet now it seems based on the reaction of this forum that they are doing exactly the same to men, basing their opinions purely on how he looks with the rather cop-out justification of 'well if his performance matches what does it matter?' it's the distaff equivalent of a man saying he reads playboy for the articles, and frankly neither washes with me.

Just to prove that i'm not barking up a non-existant tree, let me furnish you with a few quotes from this thread:


Quote
They look so lovable (Fili) and downright gorgeous (Kili) --- quite undwarvish in my opinion but cute as anything (hah, now I'm outing myself as a female not impervious to male charm, right )


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look like they could be in Mens Vogue of Middle-Earth! Look at Kili's hair! A bit high on the shampoos and conditioners are we? All in all a very good


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I never thought hobbits or dwarves are the type of race you would drool over...was I wrong. Top marks to PJ and co for making something I thought wasnt possible....sexy dwarves.


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(And I freely admit, my X chromosomes are enjoying themselves very much right now. ROWR! )


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Kili is more 'outside the box' than some of the others, it doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I'm glad.EvilLaugh


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I was expecting two hunky dwarves, and would actually have been disappointed to see something else


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I wouldn't mind giving Kili a feel-i Can't wait for Thorin Hunkenshield.


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I actually quite like these two, and would like to thank PJ for not carrying out the crime of putting Aidan Turner in heavy prosthetics. Cool


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if they are also easy on the eyes from a human female point of view, I can live with that.Cool


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Sorry, I'm going to pull out the girl card too and say 'Hubba Hubba' here.


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Meanwhile those of us who don't care as much can say "gee, that's one hot dwarf!"(depending on one's personal favorite:))


Those are just the most oblique, there were many more inferences and nudge, nudge, wink winks that are not so easy to pack into a quote. It is plain however that the majority of authors of posts loudly in favour have been female, some of them openly confessing their bias based on their preference (as i have shown above) with varying degrees of sincerity. Now, there have been men in favour of the choice (the majority of whom i assume are heterosexual), and a fair number of people both male and female who are as yet undecided or ambivalent, and equally there are a great number of women who have expressed their opposition, but is it wholly unfair to state that the majority of those who reacted positively to the picture were female and this was due at least in part to the minimal work done in terms of padding out his build and his face? As i've quoted above, at least one person considers it a 'crime' to put Aidan Turner in heavy prosthetics.

The sole arguments in defence of Kili's look other than the thrill of the fact Aidan Turner hasn't been turned into what we know as a dwarf is the fact it offers 'variety' (which i would argue can be achieved in other ways, and in any case the break-down of humanoid types into the short and stocky dwarves, average humans and lithe and beautiful elves limits that variety from the start) and the ease of identification (despite the fact people never had any issue recognising one stubble-clad, shoulder-length haired grubby human in armour from another). My powers of deduction therefore lead me to the conclusion that the primary motivating factor behind this decision was to make Kili palatable to a large part of the female (and a part of the male) audience who would otherwise be put off watching a film about thirteen pint-sized hairy men. Is it sexist of me to come to that conclusion based on the evidence available, or can we drop the slanderous idea that i consider women an inferior breed? Angelic

Dr Death


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 13 2011, 2:28pm

Post #447 of 601 (12753 views)
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Would you want me to? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, he does look a little worse for wear there, but he's still not exactly an aging mastiff of a man- the hair isn't greying as far as i can see (it's cut short to facilitate a wig but it's hardly thinning or even notably receding) and there are a couple of crow's feet around the eyes, but then he's plainly knackered having just shot for a number of months with very early calls with prosthetics and adhesive ravaging your complexion each day. He's still a 39 year old man with strong linear features and not a jowl or sign of gravity in sight. Besides, under all those prosthetics it doesn't matter how *he* looksSly.

And for the record, i brought up Richard Armitage because the person was talking about kili's uncle- ie, Thorin, and yeah, you could say there's a resemblance. Let's wait and see how Thorin looks in his glamour shot before we start calling a tired Richard as evidence that Thorin will look as battered as his book counterpart (complete with failing eyesight).

Dr Death


Annael
Immortal


Jul 13 2011, 2:30pm

Post #448 of 601 (12582 views)
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*chokes on tea* [In reply to] Can't Post


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I always figured the members of TORN to be more the type to value visual authenticity over sex appeal.


You haven't seen the Estrogen Island and Testosterone Tower threads on "Off-Topic," then . . . we swim in both the deep and shallow ends of the pool!

The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.

- James Hillman, Healing Fiction

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Annael
Immortal


Jul 13 2011, 2:36pm

Post #449 of 601 (12648 views)
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LOL! [In reply to] Can't Post

"Some dwarves are just really, really good-looking" . . .

The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.

- James Hillman, Healing Fiction

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Annael
Immortal


Jul 13 2011, 2:47pm

Post #450 of 601 (12685 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post

the terms "murdering a fictional character" do sound like something a lawyer would say to rile up the jury. When the LOTR movies came out, the equivalent phrase was "raping the book." I argued then and I argue now that the book remains intact, as do the characters. You can still pick it up and read it and it's all there like it was before. All Peter Jackson has done in both cases is present us with an interpretation of both. Just as all the hundreds of "Tolkien artists" have done with their drawings. You may not like his interpretation, and that is fine. The only interpretation any of us is ever going to love completely is our own, and alas, making a movie (or in my case, even just drawing what I see) is out of the question. So we either have to watch PJ's movie and be a bit frustrated when he veers away from what we think he "should" have done, or choose not to see it at all.

I hope you don't mean that someone else's ideas have the power to destroy your own.

The way we imagine our lives is the way we are going to go on living our lives.

- James Hillman, Healing Fiction

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967

(This post was edited by Annael on Jul 13 2011, 2:48pm)

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