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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Fili and Kili
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Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 13 2011, 3:32am

Post #376 of 601 (12060 views)
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I'm with you on that. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think they're alternating the controversial with the traditional. I'm expecting the B-trio to be short, stocky, and bearded in the best traditional sense...though possibly with a little less on top. We shall see. Smile

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


marillaraina
Rohan

Jul 13 2011, 3:38am

Post #377 of 601 (12003 views)
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Not really the point [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
So actually no most directors do NOT manage, imo, to differentiate between 12 disciples, most fail pretty miserably and after their initial introductions they mostly just blend into a group, aside from maybe one or two, perhaps 3 standouts.

That's pretty much the way it should be handled for effective storytelling. Anything beyond that is sidetracking for its own sake and to no dramatic purpose.


The original posted stated that directors DID differentiate between them with no problem, as an argument for saying that it wouldn't be a problem to differentiate between the dwarves. The rightness or wrongness of that differentiation or lack thereof of was not under discussion. :)

My opinion is that no most of the 12 apostles in films do not look like anything more than a bunch of guys with beards, the directors normally do not do a good job differentiating, which is the opposite of what the original post was saying.

And IMO, there is a dramatic purpose in The Hobbit for at least a few of the dwarves, most particularly Thorin and Fili and Kili but a 2 or 3 of the others as well, to really stand out--so basically at least half the dwarves should be more than just "ah...more dwarves".

Thorin as the "lead dwarf" probably wouldn't be too hard to keep track of but we need to really know who Fili and Kili are so that way when...what happens happens the audience will care and not be like "Oh shame that...now who are they again?" (I'm not sure if that is considered a spoiler seeing as, well, it's in the book and the book has been out for 60 years or so)

And frankly, imo, the best and most balanced way to do that is to give all the dwarves their own looks and personalites.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jul 13 2011, 3:40am)


sushiking
The Shire


Jul 13 2011, 3:40am

Post #378 of 601 (11956 views)
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Ya, but i don't have anytime reading 10 other pages D: [In reply to] Can't Post

But i'll tell you this, i can already see myself crying at the end of the hobbit for these two characters :'(


northoftheborder
Registered User

Jul 13 2011, 3:41am

Post #379 of 601 (12085 views)
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I signed up to TORN to voice my Kili disappointment [In reply to] Can't Post

This is my first post on TORN, even though I have been visiting the site about twice or thrice a week since early last year. I feel moved to voice my thoughts now because of the Kili and Fili photograph. Fili is a bit naff, but he can slide this now if only because Kili is a departure too far. It is hard to gauge much from a solitary photo so let's not be hasty. Yet first impressions are important (especially for $500m movies!) and this first impression is a stinker. With her semi-beard, stout build, and lack of height, my grandmother does a better Kili and dwarf impression than what is being done here. Who made awful decision to portray Kili in this fashion?

I hope The Hobbit in 5 reports upon the mixed and disappointed reaction to the Kili image.


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jul 13 2011, 3:43am

Post #380 of 601 (12036 views)
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At one point this afternoon there were 61 registered users online [In reply to] Can't Post

That's the most I've ever seen. We also had 15 new users sign up so far today though that's not even close to the all-time record of 91 new users in 24 hours in March 2010 when we announced a LOTR Blue-ray giveaway where people had to post their favorite scene in a thread on the boards.

Yes, this day has been interesting and fun, and there's certainly more to come! Smile


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


Eldaria
Rivendell


Jul 13 2011, 3:50am

Post #381 of 601 (11961 views)
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Richie Rich [In reply to] Can't Post

Your tweaking of Kili is just what was needed. Now he looks like he actually belongs in the same movie.

“There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep ... that have taken hold.”


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Jul 13 2011, 3:52am

Post #382 of 601 (12056 views)
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Welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post

Your feelings are no doubt shared by many, here and other places on the net. I too was a bit blown-back by Kili when I first saw the picture this morning. At first, I was a little shocked, then a bit confused, then I accepted him, and I'm kind of starting to like him, strange enough. But there is a giant pessimist and cynic in me that says, "yes, some of the people on this board are right: this is all to garner a larger female fanbase that may not have been interested in Tolkien before, and it was probably a joint decision between the filmmakers and the studio suggestions to try to gain a new audience". But I'm trying hard not to let that cynical voice on my shoulder overpower the optimist on my other shoulder saying: "Peter knows what he's doing, don't worry about the look of one or two dwarves poison your pre-conceptions of the film, which will most likely be brilliant overall". I can see why some people could hate this design, I totally understand that, and I also understand why some people love it. Kind of strange, but I don't really have any strong opinions on them otherwise, except that I liked Fili right away as a young dwarf, and I'm curious about Kili. We'll see.

Just as long as the next few don't look like this, I'll be fine:




"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak

(This post was edited by Maiarmike on Jul 13 2011, 4:02am)


LordElrond
Rivendell


Jul 13 2011, 3:55am

Post #383 of 601 (11979 views)
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Not what I was expecting [In reply to] Can't Post

But I think by the time the first film is out we will all have accepted the different looks and when we are actually watching it we will be too wrapped up in the story to even bother caring what they look like.


Proudfeet!
Bree


Jul 13 2011, 3:57am

Post #384 of 601 (11927 views)
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Maybe the other Dwarves will tease them [In reply to] Can't Post

Make fun of their slenderness. Lack of beard.


marillaraina
Rohan

Jul 13 2011, 3:58am

Post #385 of 601 (11935 views)
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IKR? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's what I keep thinking. As someone mentioned above with the comparison with Merry and Pippin, what would it have been like if that had happened to them? Because it's basically the equivalent of that. I'm thinking it's going to pretty heartbreaking. It's really a very tragic situation and they are quite young, for dwarves.

(OK to be honest? I wasn't all that into Merry and Pippin, I might not have cared that much if it had happened to them but still know that part they were playing and that a lot of people DID care about what happened to them, I can already see Fili and Kili having the sort of "journey" I'd care more about anyway and though by nature of the differences between the books, their roles were smaller than Merry and Pippin's, they were two of my favorite dwarves in the book)


marillaraina
Rohan

Jul 13 2011, 4:06am

Post #386 of 601 (12013 views)
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I've been reading around a bit [In reply to] Can't Post

And to be honest, overall the reaction to Kili is not bad at all. In some places it's very positive, and in others it's just "Hey they had to differentiate between somehow, and so far the dwarves look cool and have great weapons"

So yeah I have to say even on more "male" dominated general entertainment sites(as opposed to more female dominated general entertainment sites) the response, from what I can tell, hasn't really been that negative, it's probably been even better than I thought it would be, going by some of the reactions here.

Many people commenting seem to be excited about seeing them, looking forward to more and think the dwarves, as a whole, look cool, even while maintaining individual styles that range from "typical dwarf" to "dwarf pretty boy". :)

To me that is exactly the reaction to the photos that have been released all during the past week SHOULD be getting.

It's getting a lot of people excited, from what I can tell, it's making a lot people think seeing a movie with 13 dwarves among the main characters could be very cool. That isn't remotely a bad thing.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jul 13 2011, 4:08am)


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Jul 13 2011, 4:12am

Post #387 of 601 (11969 views)
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I agree. [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I'm definitely not going over to AICN.com to see what they're saying in the talkback, because I can already guess, and they'll say it with some colorful language.

"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules."
--Walter Sobchak


rings7
Rohan


Jul 13 2011, 4:12am

Post #388 of 601 (11969 views)
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I bet Thorin's pic will be the longest thread. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sushiking
The Shire


Jul 13 2011, 4:13am

Post #389 of 601 (11899 views)
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Yeah! [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you 100%.


marillaraina
Rohan

Jul 13 2011, 4:21am

Post #390 of 601 (11944 views)
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Definitely! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Although I'm definitely not going over to AICN.com to see what they're saying in the talkback, because I can already guess, and they'll say it with some colorful language.


I stopped visiting that place so long ago(for just those reasons), I forgot it was still around. :)

But yeah, my own personal preferences aside(hey I won't pretend I'm not perfectly happy seeing more of Aidan Turner's real face:)) - I was concerned about "general reaction", because I want the films to be good and do well. I'm so glad to see that, mostly, people seem to be getting really excited.

The first place I saw the Fili/Kili pic posted was on ONTD and the reaction was almost completely positive. Yes it was a lot of women commenting but the point is, they were getting excited about seeing the film. And Dean O'Gorman had his fair share of "Oh I've loved him since he was Young Iolaus in Hercules!". The reason was similarly positive for the previous picture releases too(though obviously with less "That dwarf could GET IT!" type comments:))

All the photos taken as a whole, by perhaps slightly less serious fans than here, seem to have had the cumulative effect of exciting people for the film. And really, this is a GOOD thing.

So basically this makes me think that whoever decided to release the photos like this is a marketing genius. :D


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jul 13 2011, 4:23am)


Phibbus
Rohan


Jul 13 2011, 4:24am

Post #391 of 601 (11820 views)
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OK, agreeing halfway [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My opinion is that no most of the 12 apostles in films do not look like anything more than a bunch of guys with beards, the directors normally do not do a good job differentiating, which is the opposite of what the original post was saying.

And IMO, there is a dramatic purpose in The Hobbit for at least a few of the dwarves, most particularly Thorin and Fili and Kili but a 2 or 3 of the others as well, to really stand out--so basically at least half the dwarves should be more than just "ah...more dwarves".

My point was that "a bunch of guys with beards" generally is enough differentiation to the purpose of the story for the basis of the apostles, with the 5 or so that rise to real importance to be developed more fully.

Distinguishing the looks of each dwarf is all well and good, but I'm still of the opinion that the group en-masse benefits from being confusing and perplexing to the viewer.

But as to actual character development, my main fear is that we wind up getting hit over the head with an unending string of thirteen different variations of sub-par dialog scenes along the lines of what Kangi posted in his "Fili and Kili - audition" thread, all just in order to say: "OK, this is the rakish pair of young brothers;" "These are the mature merchants concerned with getting a return on their investment;" "This one is the rebel who is challenging authority;" etc., etc. That kind of stuff is just filler. It formed the weakest parts of the LotR films, and as much time as it ate up in those, it has the potential to really multiply with thirteen dwarves.


marillaraina
Rohan

Jul 13 2011, 4:39am

Post #392 of 601 (11862 views)
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OK [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
My opinion is that no most of the 12 apostles in films do not look like anything more than a bunch of guys with beards, the directors normally do not do a good job differentiating, which is the opposite of what the original post was saying.

And IMO, there is a dramatic purpose in The Hobbit for at least a few of the dwarves, most particularly Thorin and Fili and Kili but a 2 or 3 of the others as well, to really stand out--so basically at least half the dwarves should be more than just "ah...more dwarves".

My point was that "a bunch of guys with beards" generally is enough differentiation to the purpose of the story for the basis of the apostles, with the 5 or so that rise to real importance to be developed more fully.

Distinguishing the looks of each dwarf is all well and good, but I'm still of the opinion that the group en-masse benefits from being confusing and perplexing to the viewer.

But as to actual character development, my main fear is that we wind up getting hit over the head with an unending string of thirteen different variations of sub-par dialog scenes along the lines of what Kangi posted in his "Fili and Kili - audition" thread, all just in order to say: "OK, this is the rakish pair of young brothers;" "These are the mature merchants concerned with getting a return on their investment;" "This one is the rebel who is challenging authority;" etc., etc. That kind of stuff is just filler. It formed the weakest parts of the LotR films, and as much time as it ate up in those, it has the potential to really multiply with thirteen dwarves.


I just can't see how the 'group en masse" benefits from confusing the viewer. That might work in the first big dwarf scene but after that, the audience of movie viewers tends to either just ignore what they can't differentiate between or they get annoyed by it and I can't see either of those things benefitting the portrayal of the dwarves.

IMO, unless it's a suspense thriller, it's not a very good idea to "perplex" the viewer too much, least of all in a big budget fantasy adventure film. I can't see how the film would benefit from a gaggle of indistinguishable dwarves, who look about the same, sound about the same and whose ages you can't really tell except if perhaps they have grey hair to make you assume "oh older".

Actually I didn't have a big problem with the dialogue scene Kangi posted for Fili and Kili - it wasn't perfect, definitely could use some polishing and tweeking but I don't think the general idea of it was all that bad. I think all the various groupings of dwarves start out with "this is the rakish young pair" "these are the tight fisted merchants", etc, etc. That's to give people the general idea and then as the story develops they each ot varying degrees develop more unique traits.

I mean parts of this film are meant to be more light. The Empire article and I think the interview with Richard Armitage both mentioned the funny bits and we can't just be laughing AT the dwarves, soemtimes we probably have to laugh with them.

Personally I don't know, just looking at them in pictures, I'm already feeling really fond of all these guys and frankly I don't think I'd feel that way "en masse"


stormcrow20
Gondor


Jul 13 2011, 4:55am

Post #393 of 601 (11865 views)
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Out of place. [In reply to] Can't Post

I became accustomed to Nori and his hair within a few hours....I even grew to like it. This is going to take quite a bit longer.

I'm fine with younger dwarves. I approve and want a variety of unique dwarves. I can even accept that some will be somewhat attractive. And from the blurry Bag End photo, Thorin is even acceptable. But this just doesn't jive. The only dwarven feature on Fili is the braids, and Kili looks entirely human to me.

If this photo of Kili were released on its own with no name given, and we did not already know which character Aidan Turner is playing....what is there to say he is a dwarf (aside from the ears, perhaps)? Even their costumes seem less dwarvish than the others. Looking at all of them in the combined edit, Fili and Kili just look out of place. All of the previously revealed dwarves have a very dwarvish feel to them, and have uniquely styled beards, yet Fili and Kili have neither. In my eyes, and as established in Jackson's trilogy, well-trimmed goatees and overgrown stubble are features of men. I don't think any dwarf should have a beard shorter than Gandalf the White, at least.

On a more positive note, I like the weapons....

But all things considered, my excitement for The Hobbit is far from tarnished, and I can't wait to see the rest of the gang!



A greenlight from the shadows shall spring!

(This post was edited by stormcrow20 on Jul 13 2011, 5:05am)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 13 2011, 5:01am

Post #394 of 601 (11845 views)
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Welcome out of lurkdom and [In reply to] Can't Post

I just wanted you to know that this is why I signed up to TorN as well. It was (as they say) my density...er destiny. Looks like Kili is one of them there Del Toro Monsters I have heard about in these parts. EvilEvilEvil

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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lurtz2010
Rohan

Jul 13 2011, 5:10am

Post #395 of 601 (11908 views)
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so how are you feeling about these two dwarves Kangi Ska? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd like to know


Phibbus
Rohan


Jul 13 2011, 5:22am

Post #396 of 601 (11764 views)
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En-masse [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
just can't see how the 'group en masse" benefits from confusing the viewer. That might work in the first big dwarf scene but after that, the audience of movie viewers tends to either just ignore what they can't differentiate between or they get annoyed by it and I can't see either of those things benefitting the portrayal of the dwarves.

Again, I'm going to disagree. The first two-thirds of the book consists of similarly chaotic, mass-mayhem scenes and handling of the dwarves: Dazed Bilbo seeing the dwarves sacked one-by-one by trolls; dwarves captured in a confused gaggle by goblins and run through tunnels; mass of dwarves being run up burning fir trees and carried off by eagles; paraded in re-introduction to a bear-man; spun into cocoons by spiders; stuffed into barrels. Bilbo is constantly trying to rise above the muddle that the dwarves present to him, and so should the viewer be. I'm kind of repeating an older post, but the dwarves in these scnenes form a collective, primarily visual character. Most of them can be mere bodies along for the ride, simply because the scenes wouldn't be as appealing with, say, 5 dwarves. We can disagree whether this is cinematically effective or not (I think it is, and I think TH and LotR are much more cinematic as-written than most seem to give them credit for.) To me, effective writing will gradually differentiate the essential dwarves along the way by a few deft strokes within the context of these scenes rather than by attempting to derail the action with tangents just so the viewer can come to know each dwarf personally.

Of course, I know that many feel differently, as you do, and I think the writing will turn out more to your liking than mine.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jul 13 2011, 5:26am

Post #397 of 601 (11955 views)
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I am just thankful no one took to trimming Gandalf's beard again. [In reply to] Can't Post

After the damn goatee they gave him for TTT and ROTK, I had a real fear that the boys in hair and makeup might take the more than half century backwards time leap as an excuse to trim his grey beard to half of what it was in Fellowship. So, at this point, if Dwalin sports a blue tinted beard, I will not complain anymore about anything beard related. . . unless an Elf shows up sporting one, or Gandalf's turns out to be much thinner and more scraggly than all the photos suggest.

In Reply To
I became accustomed to Nori and his hair within a few hours....I even grew to like it. This is going to take quite a bit longer.

I'm fine with younger dwarves. I approve and want a variety of unique dwarves. I can even accept that some will be somewhat attractive. And from the blurry Bag End photo, Thorin is even acceptable. But this just doesn't jive. The only dwarven feature on Fili is the braids, and Kili looks entirely human to me.

If this photo of Kili were released on its own with no name given, and we did not already know which character Aidan Turner is playing....what is there to say he is a dwarf (aside from the ears, perhaps)? Even their costumes seem less dwarvish than the others. Looking at all of them in the combined edit, Fili and Kili just look out of place. All of the previously revealed dwarves have a very dwarvish feel to them, and have uniquely styled beards, yet Fili and Kili have neither. In my eyes, and as established in Jackson's trilogy, well-trimmed goatees and overgrown stubble are features of men. I don't think any dwarf should have a beard shorter than Gandalf the White, at least.

On a more positive note, I like the weapons....

But all things considered, my excitement for The Hobbit is far from tarnished, and I can't wait to see the rest of the gang!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Jul 13 2011, 5:39am

Post #398 of 601 (11861 views)
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Disappointed [In reply to] Can't Post

Unsure

I practically worship the ground PJ walks on, and love his trilogy of LotR films, and appreciate & understand the changes he made in those films - but this hurts.

They're just not dwarves. They are shrunken humans, basically. I suppose I'll get over it at some point, but this is genuinely the first time I've ever been disappointed by PJ and Co.

Not cool.

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Jul 13 2011, 5:40am)


sador
Half-elven


Jul 13 2011, 6:13am

Post #399 of 601 (11762 views)
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Only according to appendix A of LotR. [In reply to] Can't Post

In The Hobbit, Fili is said to be the youngest and have the best eyesight (drawing that boat in Mirkwood)

"Who saw this coming? Just curious if the laws of deus ex machina applied for everyone’s reading experience."
- Milady



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Spencissimus
Lorien


Jul 13 2011, 6:30am

Post #400 of 601 (11832 views)
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Just blame the studio... [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretend that PJ and the Gang were made to prettify Fili and Kili by WB, and that what we see here is Weta making the best out of a bad situation! I for one don't mind them...in fact I quite like Fili. Kili is ok, and will probably look better on screen.

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