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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Celeborn and the White Council.
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Erufaildon
Bree


Jul 11 2011, 8:13pm

Post #26 of 53 (358 views)
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re Probably not Thranduil [In reply to] Can't Post

This is interesting news to me. Does Tolkien state this in the Hobbit, or is it in HoME? I've read the Hobbit, Silmarillion, LOTR, UF multiple times, but not in recent years. After watching the movies you get the impression that the dwarfes, elves, men all are (somewhat) good friends.


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jul 11 2011, 8:20pm

Post #27 of 53 (363 views)
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But remember not to trust these things 100 % [In reply to] Can't Post

As was just exemplified by me in this same discussion....Tongue

I've noticed the Encyclopedia being wrong in a few things here and there, mainly in translating some names... I've come to like TolkienGateway the best, but don't take it either as the definite truth. Nothing beats just reading through the books!

Now, there should be an internet archive just for Tolkien sources! "For this and this matter, refer to this and this book, the page ---"

Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jul 11 2011, 8:24pm

Post #28 of 53 (363 views)
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Read them again... ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

The Elves in particular have HUGE issues amongst themselves. The different clanes and tribes can be pretty hostile at each other. As you've read the Silmarillion, you know about the Kinslaying, and how the Sindar consider the Noldor to be reason of their suffering, and how the Silvan Elves consider both Sindar and Noldor being the trouble makers... And in the Thrid Age the Elves and Men are very alienated from each other. The Rohirrim think Lórien is an evil place and Galadriel an evil sorceress.

The reason they seem relatively friendly in LotR movies is because they're united by the common enemy, Sauron. Would it be peace, they'd all be avoiding each other.

Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jul 11 2011, 8:29pm

Post #29 of 53 (365 views)
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PS [In reply to] Can't Post

Otaku-sempai got the particular information from Unfinished Tales.

Oropher and Thranduil were originally Sindar from Doriath, which was destroyed by Noldor and Dwarves. They thought the wars of the First Age were a making of the Noldor, and thought that the original life style of the Elves was that of simple rustic forest life far from wars and passions of the Noldor. So they travelled into east and settled in Mirkwood amongst the simple Silvan Elves, wishing to become like they. When the Noldo Galadriel settled down in Lórien on the other side of Anduin, Oropher was displeased. And later in the War of the Last Alliance Oropher acted on his own, not submitting into the command of High King Gil-Galad. It got him killed.

Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster


Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Jul 11 2011, 9:01pm

Post #30 of 53 (346 views)
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Thanduil as Isolationist [In reply to] Can't Post

As Faenoriel points out, my information comes mostly from Unfinished Tales and secondary texts. From these, I conclude that Lord Thranduil was fairly isolationist up until at least the Battle of the Five Armies; although, not so much as to prevent trade with the Men of Esgaroth and others.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jul 11 2011, 9:07pm

Post #31 of 53 (325 views)
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No connection with TORn. [In reply to] Can't Post

They don't say much about who they are, but their bibliography is extensive. There's a copyright notice, "Original content © copyright Mark Fisher 1999, 2001". Whether Mark had or now has help is unknown.






Join us in the Reading Room for "The Return of the King" Book V! starting now!

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'

(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jul 11 2011, 9:10pm)


Kristin Thompson
Rohan


Jul 11 2011, 9:26pm

Post #32 of 53 (338 views)
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One small correction [In reply to] Can't Post

Arahad I wasn't born in 2523; that's his date of death. Given the date of the previous chieftain's reign, Arahad ruled from 2455 to 2523. Which, probably coincidentally, means that he was the Chieftain of the Dúnedain at the time when the White Council was formed in 2453. There's no indication that he was a member of the Council. He was also chieftain at the time when Celebrian was captured and tortured by Orcs and departed over the Sea. Troubled times.

On a related matter, it baffles me why Elrond didn't go off to the White Council meeting that resulted in the attack on Dol Guldur. Of course, in the first edition of The Hobbit Tolkien had no notion of the composition of the White Council. Even in the revised edition it's referred to as a "great council of white wizards, masters of lore and good magic." (The wizards' colors weren't used until LOTR.) Gandalf tells Elrond the news about the Necromancer being driven out of Dol Guldur. This, mind you, in May, when the attack on Dol Guldur must have taken place sometime in the autumn to give Gandalf enough time to get to Erebor before the Battle of Five Armies. So Elrond not only didn't go to the Council meeting but didn't receive any message about it's highly important result for over half a year! It would have been easy for Tolkien to change a few sentences and saying that Elrond had also gone south and attended the meeting. But no, it remains one of those contradictions that the long process of revising the various versions created and never eliminated. Tolkien also could easily have revised the "council of white wizards" sentence, too, but he didn't.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 11 2011, 9:35pm

Post #33 of 53 (314 views)
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The simple answer is ... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Hobbit is not and never was intended to be (other than possibly when Tolkien was working on the aborted 1960 revisions) part of the legendarium. No matter how hard people try to make it so, it simply isn't. It is a separate story that tells some of the same events but not in a way that is consistent with the rest of the legendarium. Which is why Christopher Tolkien refused to include it in The History of Middle-earth series.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

www.arda-reconstructed.com


Kristin Thompson
Rohan


Jul 11 2011, 9:48pm

Post #34 of 53 (338 views)
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Perhaps yes and no (as an Elf would say) [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Tolkien was somewhat ambivalent about making The Hobbit a full member of the legendarium, as it were. But he certainly changed things like the "Riddles in the Dark" chapter to fit with the new conception of the Ring in LOTR. Most tellingly to me, at the end of LOTR Tolkien explicitly makes There and Back Again part of the Red Book of Westmarch, and Frodo labels the 80-chapter book as it was when he gave it to Sam as "the memoirs of Bilbo and Frodo of the Shire." Combined, The Hobbit and LOTR contain 81 chapters, with Sam presumably having added part of chapter 80 and all of chapter 81, "The Grey Havens" after Frodo left. To me, that makes it part of the legendarium, contradictions and all.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 11 2011, 9:59pm

Post #35 of 53 (298 views)
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Once agian, Thank you Eliazbeth! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll spend more time there, Rest assured...it is so nice to have a kinda Wiki reference SITE about this! xoxoOB


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 11 2011, 10:01pm

Post #36 of 53 (314 views)
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An accident [In reply to] Can't Post

The change to "Riddles in the Dark" was largely an accident. When he sent revisions for the second edition of The Hobbit to the publisher he also sent the changed version of the chapter that he had been playing around with, and the publisher mistook it for one of the revisions, to Tolkien's great surprise when he received the proofs. He decided to go with the change, not so much because it made The Hobbit more consistent with LOTR, but more because he thought the new version made it a better story (which I agree with). And yes, Bilbo's memoirs are certainly part of the Red Book of LOTR, but that is Bilbo's memoirs as incorporated into the story of LOTR, which is not quite the same thing as the book The Hobbit. Just as the White Council described in LOTR is not quite the same thing as the Council of White Wizards described in The Hobbit.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

www.arda-reconstructed.com


KAOS82
Rohan


Jul 11 2011, 10:07pm

Post #37 of 53 (294 views)
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not only 4 that [In reply to] Can't Post

just remember that he is the father of Celebrian, wife of Elrond
without Celeborn (Teleporno Laugh) we wouldn't have ArwenHeart (and of course Elrohir & Elladan...)
however Tolkien seems to forget about him, the same thing reminds me to the husband of Queen Elizabeth of England

TÚRIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNGA & NIENOR NÍNIEL


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jul 11 2011, 10:14pm

Post #38 of 53 (308 views)
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Who is Mark Fisher? [In reply to] Can't Post

I became curious about who this person is and did a bit of internet searching. I found one fascinating remark on this forum: "I prefer to refer the books and Mark Fisher more. He is a friend of Christopher Tolkien and he is also very kind to answer questions." This was in 2006. Otherwise, all I find is links to the Encyclopedia of Arda.






Join us in the Reading Room for "The Return of the King" Book V! starting now!

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jul 11 2011, 10:17pm

Post #39 of 53 (327 views)
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We're never told directly [In reply to] Can't Post

that Elrond wasn't at the council. We're told that Bilbo learned where Gandalf had been by overhearing Gandalf's words to Elrond. But we're not told what those words were - the two of them might have been discussing what happened there, and giving details to the "many eager ears" who were also listening in to the conversation. We're told that Bilbo was drowsily tuning in and out of the conversation, and since he was mostly interested in finding out where Gandalf had been, Elrond's participation (or not) may simply not have seemed important enough to mention.

At least, I think there's wiggle-room there, thanks to Bilbo's vagueness, to consider that Elrond's participation in the council is not ruled out.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



HiddenSpring
Lorien

Jul 11 2011, 10:56pm

Post #40 of 53 (295 views)
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Doubtful [In reply to] Can't Post

I think if we get to see Celeborn, Glorfindel, and or/Círdan, it will be just for a few seconds/minutes. There are already so many important Elvish characters that weren't in the book I doubt they'll want to keep adding more.

I suppose it will be slightly weird to see Galadriel without Celeborn since in the trilogy they're always together in "social" (to use that term loosely) situations (the greeting of the Fellowship in LOTR, Gray Havens in ROTK).


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 11 2011, 11:49pm

Post #41 of 53 (285 views)
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Mystery solved...Elizabeth once agian you are Heroine! [In reply to] Can't Post

a friend of ChristopherT...wow.... That says alot.

I'm gunna have so much fun peiceing together all the missing links in my mind of MddleEarth, by studying this SITE!
YIPPIE...thanks again....
you may NOT hear from OB for some time,
since the exploration of Fully developed site
is a true Wonder to Behold
xoxoxOB


squire
Half-elven


Jul 12 2011, 12:07am

Post #42 of 53 (330 views)
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Wiggle room, or classic dodge? [In reply to] Can't Post

Because some of us LotR readers seem to need to have Elrond at the final Dol Guldur confrontation, we may look for "wiggle-room" in that classic dodge: it wasn't mentioned so it could have happened.

I am always baffled by this approach to this question. One cannot read the scene without immediately concluding that Elrond was being filled in on matters he didn't know about. It is a picturesque interview that reinforces Elrond's character as a peaceful host and loremaster rather than a warrior, not to mention filling the reader in as well. We certainliy can't imagine that the scene's only point is to show that Bilbo finally learned where Gandalf had been - the two had just spent several months in each other's company, including an entire winter at Beorn's house, during which Bilbo may well have actually asked Gandalf to fill him in on matters which Gandalf had no reason to hide from him.

Elrond then pronounces a valedictory on the Necromancer, with Gandalf's less certain reply - which Tolkien did change in his revision, to allow the Necromancer an earlier return. This only adds to the certainty that what was written was what was meant: in The Hobbit, Elrond was not at Dol Guldur. Any indication that he was (a few very vague clues in LotR; the assault/attack is never written about at all, it is simply mentioned) must simply join the many other clear contradictions of story or tone between The Hobbit and LotR.

Yes, of course one can twist any text for secondary or alternate meanings that don't reside in it, but rather in a remote context. But why bother? I don't see any need to try to coordinate the two occasionally inconsistent books more than they are, just because the screenwriters are reported to have done so for the film project. I think Tolkien reconciled the Riddles scene because he was interested in the Riddles scene and interested in Gollum and the Ring. I think he ignored the survival of the absurd Council of White Wizards in the later Hobbit editions, because he really wasn't interested in either the White Council or the Dol Guldur episode. This is partly, I suspect, because he knew that more exposition would only create greater plot holes than were already there in the jump between Bilbo's adventure and Frodo's.

I have a feeling that he would be pleased that The Hobbit is being filmed, all things considered, but that he would be appalled that an attempt is being made to make the Necromancer's fate (one sentence, eight pages from the end of the book) a major element of the film.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 12 2011, 1:03am

Post #43 of 53 (273 views)
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Thanks! I love it. [In reply to] Can't Post

Written like a true "Hobbit" curmudgeon. I hope Elrond stays at home where he belongs.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Erufaildon
Bree


Jul 12 2011, 1:16am

Post #44 of 53 (269 views)
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Cheers for the replies [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I just thought that by the end of the third age, the elves had looked past former differences and grown closer due to the fact that there were fewer of them left in Middle-Earth, and that all noldor-sindarin-teleri strongholds had atleast some groups of elves from other trees :)


squire
Half-elven


Jul 12 2011, 1:30am

Post #45 of 53 (272 views)
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"Incredibly helpful" - given certain assumptions [In reply to] Can't Post

Clearly and honestly, the editors of the Encyclopedia of Arda let their readers know that
"The content of the Encyclopedia is written in the same context as Tolkien himself used; he presented himself simply as a translator, rather than originator of the tales. Hence, we try to describe his world from a 'historical' rather than a literary perspective, though this isn't always possible."
I certainly understand why a popular Tolkien-info website might decide to take this approach to indexing Middle-earth. But starting with the assertion that Tolkien "presented himself simply as a translator" and noticing the unfortunate omission of any citations to the texts, I think this is a hideously simplified approach to reading, understanding, and enjoying the literary universe that Tolkien devised. What is happening is that the editors are presenting a "consensus" version of Tolkien's legends as if there is an actual history involved.

For example, whenever The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings conflict, the LotR's version is presented as the "facts" in the Encyclopedia of Arda - entirely because of the latter book's greater prestige and popularity, I imagine, since Tolkien himself by no means ever fully reconciled the two nor indicated that he really wished to. But the Encyclopedia's readers are given no choice in the matter. It is all best practices and sense of the house, as it were. As a result we see people actually trying to solve thorny textual questions not by citing Tolkien's texts, but by citing a second-hard source that explicitly disdains to admit that either real sources or textual questions even exist.

I think this is a double shame, because the web is the perfect place and format for an attempt by such a site to be all things to all people. Sure, for the first click present the "mainstream" history of Galadriel, whatever the heck the editor thinks that might be. But with hyperlinks and infinite space to expand into, the actual complexities of Galadriel could also be accommodated for those who prefer the more accurate and incoherent version.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


LordElrond
Rivendell


Jul 12 2011, 5:28am

Post #46 of 53 (242 views)
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I assumed that the council will meet at Lorien [In reply to] Can't Post

Since Galadriel is going to be in I thought Celeborn must be too but they would have announced him already no? If Lorien does play a part at all people might wonder where he is.


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

Jul 12 2011, 6:32am

Post #47 of 53 (234 views)
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I always thought it made sense [In reply to] Can't Post

For the heir of Isildur to be on the White Council. Maybe even a representative from Gondor as well. Otherwise the Council has too much of a well, immortal look about it just been the Istrai and the main Elves. And this in a time when the world was becoming more and more mortal!


geordie
Tol Eressea

Jul 12 2011, 7:42am

Post #48 of 53 (276 views)
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I don't use online Tolkien 'encyclopedias' much [In reply to] Can't Post

 In general I find them unreliable, when not actually downright wrong. Most do not give citations. I haven't taken much notice of the Encyclopedia of Arda; glancing at it at random just now, I see nothing particularly helpful under the entry for Nazgul (for example) .

I haven't heard of Mark Fisher - neither has the other poster on that forum which Elizabeth linked to. But then, the level of knowledge on that site doesn't seem too great either (esp. as one of the chaps there refers to Tolkien incorrectly as 'John'), so I'll take the assertion that Fisher is a friend of Christopher's with a pinch of salt. Anyway; in the site's disclaimer, Mr Fisher states that they have no connection with the Estate.

On the subject of downright errors - an example I often give is Wikipedia's entry for Tolkien's paper 'English and Welsh', which they claim is the title of Tolkien's Valedictory Address to Oxford University in 1955. In fact this is a mix-up between two of Tolkien's pieces; 'English and Welsh' was a lecture delivered by Tolkien in 1955, and published some years later:

"English and Welsh". In Angles and Britons: O'Donnell Lectures. Cardiff: University of Cardiff Press, [8 July] 1963. [8], 168 pp.
Essay, printed on pp. [1]-41.

Tolkien's Valedictory Address is quite a different piece:

"Valedictory Address to the University of Oxford, 5 June 1959". In J.R.R. Tolkien, Scholar and Storyteller: Essays in Memoriam. Edited by Mary Salu and Robert T. Farrell. Ithaca: Cornell University Press, [31 March] 1979. 325, [3] pp.
ISBN 0-8014-1038-X
Essay, printed on pp. 16-32. A slightly different version of the essay appears in The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essays.

These citations are taken from Ake Bertenstam's excellent page, to be found here:

http://www.forodrim.org/arda/tbchron.html#VA

- but, excellent as it is, Ake's page is incomplete; going only up to 2002.

In general, I stick to the books. For Tolkien's Middle-earth works, I find Robert Foster's 'The Complete Guide to Middle earth' to be an excellent quick guide for TH, LotR, Silm and also The Road Goes Ever On, too. Then there's Hammond and Scull's 'The Lord of the rings: A Reader's Companion'. For later works, I find the indices in UT and HoMe sufficient for me to find out what I need to know.

These of course cover only part of Tolkien's writings. For Tolkien's other works, and his life-story, the best reference is Scull and Hammond's two-volume 'JRR Tolkien: A Companion and Guide'. I find both of Scull-Hammond's works indispensable; not least because of their accuracy.


(This post was edited by geordie on Jul 12 2011, 7:44am)


dormouse
Half-elven

Jul 12 2011, 9:02am

Post #49 of 53 (224 views)
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I'm not sure, squire.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've read and re-read that passage from 'The Hobbit' both in its published form and in the early version quoted in Rateliff and to me it says nothing for or against the idea of Elrond's involvement. By listening to Gandalf and Elrond's conversation Bilbo learns where Gandalf was and what he was doing. Specifically phrased, it is Bilbo doing the learning, not Elrond, while Gandalf and Elrond muse over the Necromancer and the threat he might pose in the future.

I agree with FarFromHome on this one, and I'd say that whichever side of this we're standing - looking at The Hobbit in isolation, as an early stand-alone work, or looking back at it through the lens of LotR, we read what we expect to read in this passage; the text itself is open. Tolkien sent Gandalf off because he needed the dwarves and Bilbo to cope on their own. And so he had to create a reason - Council of Wizards, Necromancer... one of those things that 'grew in the telling'. I doubt if he paused to think then whether or not Elrond would have been there. Later he decided to include Elrond in the White Council and who can say now if, faced with the idea that Elrond goes to Dol Guldur in the film, he would say 'yes, good idea' or 'no, certainly not'?

It's one of those complications in Tolkien that we can't resolve and maybe shouldn't try. He devised The Hobbit as a story for his children and yet couldn't help drawing in elements of the mythology that was already in his mind; out of it would later grow the whole concept of the Third Age and the Ring and in the process, elements of The Hobbit were given a significance he hadn't thought of when he first wrote them down. The whole evolution of the stories is so wonderfully organic that I don't see how we can pick one point and say 'this is definitive'. None of it is. All of it is.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jul 12 2011, 4:04pm

Post #50 of 53 (205 views)
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I said nothing about a secondary meaning. [In reply to] Can't Post

All I said was there's no primary source there for deciding that Elrond was not at the White Council. It is made clear in the passage I quoted from that this is the first time Bilbo has understood where Gandalf has been (no matter how many opportunities he might have had to ask about it earlier). It is not stated that Elrond was at home the whole time. The only part of the conversation that Bilbo really tunes in for is the end, where Gandalf and Elrond are discussing the possible results of the action against the Necromancer - the rest is left unstated and very vague. Bilbo (and the narrator) don't really care what Elrond was doing when he wasn't playing mine host in Rivendell, and so it simply doesn't come up. I'm actually inclined to think that, consciously or unconsciously, Tolkien left himself this room to manoeuvre right from the start, by making Bilbo's learning of the background story so intermittent and hazy!

Obviously within The Hobbit as written, the White Council is nothing but a minor detail, part of the "unexplained vistas" that are such an important part of Tolkien's storytelling approach. But just as LotR's "unexplained vistas" are developed in the Appendices and in the Silmarillion, this particular unexplained element from The Hobbit is developed in LotR and elsewhere. Usually, we don't argue that anything that's left unexplained in LotR must be considered only in that light, if there's more information to be had elsewhere. I don't see why The Hobbit should not be treated in the same way.

It's true, of course, that the "real" reason nothing more is said about the White Council in The Hobbit is that Tolkien hadn't dreamt it up yet. But considering the organic way that all his stories seem to grow, I don't think this means much. So The Hobbit happened to be published before Tolkien had worked out the details of the White Council. So what? He's worked them out since...

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings


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