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dormouse
Gondolin
Jul 9 2011, 8:54am
Post #1 of 12
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Chapter V - "The Ride of the Rohirrim" - Closing thoughts
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We've taken ten pages (in my copy) to retrace the events of 13 - 15 March seen from a different viewpoint, that of Merry, approaching the battle with Théoden and the Rohirrim, and we're back where we started, 'the horns of the North, wildly blowing' as the Rohirrim gallop towards the besieged city. (Shades of Tennyson there, 'Blow bugle blow; set the wild echoes flying...')
In the course of those ten pages we've met a completely new race of men with their own distinct history and skills, seen more of the toughness, loyalty and motivation of hobbits - well, one hobbit, anyway. We've come to one of the darkest and most hopeless points in the story and been given a glimmer of hope in the coming of the sea wind. What else
What does this chapter tell us about Merry?
About Éomer and the Rohirrim?
About Dernhelm? And though I know the question's been asked before here it comes again; who guessed the identity of Dernhelm on first reading? I'll come clean and say I didn't. I was intrigued by him and guessed there had to be something more to him. My feeling (at age 13) was that he was going to do something heroic and maybe die in the doing.
Most of all, because for me that's what this chapter is really about, (please say if you disagree) we learn about Théoden. We see him fully come into his own as the king, without Gandalf or Aragorn or any other authority figure being present. For me this is where he wins the battle, no matter what else is about to happen.
Any other thoughts?
Otherwise, thanks - and Darkstone, it's all yours!.........
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jul 9 2011, 10:16pm
Post #2 of 12
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Way back in 2003, when I was new to the Reading Room, we had a participant in these discussions called Gwynfor, who was a very active and experienced participant in armored conflict with the Society for Creative Anachronism, in addition to being an outstanding Tolkien scholar. In discussing this chapter, questions were raised about the singing Rohirrim, and he had several very interesting things to say. First, responding to "How would you feel facing a singing army":
I don't think I would like to face singing fighters at all. Anyone who was sufficiently worked up and, seemingly, carefree enough to sing as they slew would be a formidable opponent. There's enough to worry about in battle without having your foe hewing away to a dirge-like chant. Bonechilling, I would think, would describe it.
Of course, the use of music in war is not new, and it was always designed as a morale booster for your own troops and a morale breaker for the oposition. From the formal military marches of the modern era, to the horns used by the Israelites, and the skirl of the pipes that accompanied the Scots into battle the tradition is millenia old. Zulu chants, drums and percussion, wind instruments like pipes and horns have all been seen and heard on the battlefields of the world.
Then, "were they singing individually, or in unison?"
I can't see any reason why they should not be able to sing in unison, especially if there was a tradition of it. There are mentions in Viking saga of warriors consumed by battle-rage singing as they fought, though not whole units.
I can defintiely see the value of singing, in several sense. Firstly the morale aspect of boosting one's own morale, and breaking that of the opposition. Secondly, singing forces one to breathe more correctly, which offers a physiological advantage of keeping the mucles more highly oxynated and reducing the build up of the nasty by-products of anaerobic muscle energy production (lactic acid build up). Trust me, fighting in armor can result in "the burn" (that feeling of muscles on fire that is a sympton of lactic acid accumulation) very quickly! Thirdly, one of the important parts of efficient fighting is to keep your rhythm going. The weapons, be it sword, spear, axe or whatever, is a mass that you want to keep moving because it simply takes too much energy to overcome inertia all the time. Singing would be a great way to keep the rhythm up, using the accents to change the direction of the blade, or the speed and power of the blows to best exploit gaps in an opponent's defenses.
The entire discussion may be found here.
Finally, it's always fun to ask, what songs would you recommend for singing in battle?
Thanks, dormouse, for a great week!
Join us in the Reading Room for "The Return of the King" Book V! starting now!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 10 2011, 1:36pm
Post #3 of 12
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from someone with (close to) first hand knowledge of this kind of fighting.
I can also easily imagine the singing being in unison - possibly very rhythmic, like sea shanties, which were also songs to keep a body of men moving together to perform a task. As Gwynfor says, they control the breathing as well as aiding morale. Soldiers still learn to drill and march in unison to music, but in the past when combat was hand-to-hand it must have been absolutely crucial. To know where everyone else was, to stay in touch with the warriors on either side and time your blows with theirs - singing must have been a great help, and incidentally, absolutely blood-curdling to the other side!
I'm not sure what songs I'd recommend - sea shanties have the rhythm, but they aren't about fighting, instead they are mostly light-hearted memories about drinking and wenching and whatever else a sailor is likely to be missing on board ship! But there are plenty of martial songs that are still used by the armed forces - Hearts of Oak is a good one (here's a Youtube version): "Come cheer up my lads, 'tis to glory we steer...."
But I imagine the Rohirrim singing exactly the kind of song that we will later hear sung about Theoden - songs of their own history and past heroes. What could be more inspirational than to know that you'll be in the next version of the song you're singing, if you give it your all!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 10 2011, 2:03pm
Post #4 of 12
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I think I see him in this chapter mostly as our eyes and ears - expressing fears that we can imagine ourselves feeling, so that we get a sense of the dread and loneliness of a soldier moving inexorably forward into battle. He's surrounded by others, which allows him to master his fear, tighten his belt, and keep going. But every single one of those soldiers is in the same situation - they have to push away their personal fear and support the group, knowing all the time that when it comes to life and death they are, in the end, alone.
Eomer is determined, committed - presumably also aware, like Merry, of the dangers that lie ahead, but much too professional to let us see any fear. Which is why we need Merry's point of view, I guess.
I think I knew Dernhelm's secret the first time I read the book, or at least strongly suspected it - I was an undergraduate at the time and had read enough that this literary device wasn't new to me. But I always think that the old'uns and the good'uns - Tolkien's love of old storytelling traditions is one of the things I really like about LotR!
Most of all, because for me that's what this chapter is really about, (please say if you disagree) we learn about Théoden. We see him fully come into his own as the king, without Gandalf or Aragorn or any other authority figure being present. For me this is where he wins the battle, no matter what else is about to happen.
Yes, I think Theoden's moment of truth is right at the end of this chapter, when at the sound of the breaking gates, "the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect." He goes from (apparently) "cowed by age" to "tall and proud" - and the words that describe his actions after that are the stuff of legend. First his voice, "more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before", and then his prowess with the horn that bursts asunder when he blows it, turn him into a legendary hero right here and now. He becomes the image on his banner, "white horse upon a field of green" - and the description of his charge, as we see with Darkstone's reformatting of it, is the song that will remember him for ever.
Thank you for leading us this week, dormouse! I really enjoyed reading your thoughts and answering your questions.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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dormouse
Gondolin
Jul 10 2011, 6:44pm
Post #5 of 12
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Yes - there's a scene in 'Sharpe' ....
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..in which one of the junior officers is asked to sing to the column as it moves off and he sings 'Hearts of Oak' - though from the words I suspect it originated with the navy. There's a lot of singing in Sharpe, which is accurate, I suspect, as all the series were very carefully researched and the National Army Museum still recommends them. 'Over the Hills and Far Away', which they used as a theme tune and kept writing new words for, is an old song which was probably sung by soldiers - I expect a lot of our folk songs about soldiers - like 'Oh Soldier, Soldier, won't you marry me?' (he doesn't) were probably sung by soldiers originally, they have that sort of rhythm.
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flying fish
Nevrast
Jul 11 2011, 11:00pm
Post #6 of 12
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Thanks for an interesting week
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Most of my thoughts were covered by other posters; thank you all for an interesting week.
I didn't guess Eowyn on first reading: in fact, having also read the Chronicles of Prydain around the same time, I was worried Dernhelm was going to do something dodgy in the betrayal line!
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jul 12 2011, 6:58pm
Post #7 of 12
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What does this chapter tell us about Merry?
There’s something about Merry.
About Éomer and the Rohirrim?
Good lyrics and a beat you can dance to.
About Dernhelm?
Definitely Bishōnen.
And though I know the question's been asked before here it comes again; who guessed the identity of Dernhelm on first reading?
I believe I did, but that was over 40 years ago.
I think I'll come clean and say I didn't. I was intrigued by him and guessed there had to be something more to him. My feeling (at age 13) was that he was going to do something heroic and maybe die in the doing.
Given the lack of fatalities and the false deaths so far at best I thought he’d seem to get killed, then come back okay. In fact I was still thinking Boromir would show up at the end.
Most of all, because for me that's what this chapter is really about, (please say if you disagree)
Okay: “If you disagree.”
we learn about Théoden. We see him fully come into his own as the king, without Gandalf or Aragorn or any other authority figure being present. For me this is where he wins the battle, no matter what else is about to happen.
Except for some who believe he was possessed by Oromë, like Joe Pendleton possessed Leo Farnsworth in Here Comes Mr. Jordan (1941) and Heaven Can Wait (1977), or like in Jhuk Gaya Aasman (1968) and Down to Earth (2001) except Joe Pendleton didn’t possess Leo Farnsworth in either of them but rather someone else posseesed someone else, but you know what I mean.
Any other thoughts?
Uhhhh…
Otherwise, thanks - and Darkstone, it's all yours!.........
You’re a tough act to follow. *Looks up* Two topics posted, one response. About usual. I think you’ve already got me beat. And you were so nervous!
(When are people going to learn to not let Darkstone lead a chapter?!?!?)
******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jul 12 2011, 7:08pm)
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jul 12 2011, 7:14pm
Post #8 of 12
(825 views)
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It takes folks a few days to get around to doing their homework. Besides, some of us are too busy chuckling to type.
Join us in the Reading Room for "The Return of the King" Book V! starting now!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jul 13 2011, 6:54pm
Post #9 of 12
(812 views)
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People are....laughing at me!?!?
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Oh, the shame!
******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jul 13 2011, 6:57pm
Post #10 of 12
(814 views)
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...think you're brilliantly clever.
Probably not everyone, of course.
Join us in the Reading Room for "The Return of the King" Book V! starting now!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jul 13 2011, 7:12pm
Post #11 of 12
(845 views)
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So those who don't think I'm brilliantly clever must think I'm cleverly brilliant?
I can live with that.
******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.
Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?
So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Jul 16 2011, 5:33pm
Post #12 of 12
(816 views)
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Most of all, because for me that's what this chapter is really about, (please say if you disagree) we learn about Théoden. We see him fully come into his own as the king, without Gandalf or Aragorn or any other authority figure being present. For me this is where he wins the battle, no matter what else is about to happen.
I heartily agree with you. This chapter more than others just plain makes me feel good, and I think that's because of Theoden and how, as you say, he comes into his own without anyone else overshadowing him (or undershadowing him, as Wormtongue would have done from below, but I guess that pun doesn't really work). Theoden could be called the ideal grandfather: old, wise, stern, generous, kind, brave, and showing leadership in spite of darkness (Sauron's + his own old age). He makes growing old seem pretty okay if you can turn out like he does. And good point about the "superheroes" not being present. Nothing against them, but Gandalf and Aragorn aren't people we can hope to be. I can't hope to be a king either, but there's something about "the common man" in Theoden that makes him approachable and more easy to identify with. Probably because of his maturity, he seems a more well-rounded character to me than Eomer does.
Thanks for a great week of questions! I've been woses-fully behind, but enjoyed it all when I could catch up.
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