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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Dori, Ori and Nori
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Patty
Immortal


Jul 8 2011, 5:24pm

Post #251 of 274 (1260 views)
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Yeah! He looks like he did in LotR... [In reply to] Can't Post

the brief glimpse that we got of him arriving in Rivendell with Gimli.Cool

Permanent address: Into the West





Darkstone
Immortal

Jul 8 2011, 5:26pm

Post #252 of 274 (1257 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

I knew what you meant, and to me it made perfect sense.

Over the years I've noticed some people seem to go out of their way to take deliberate umbrage over this phrase or that word or those pictures, simply in order demonstrate how big a real fan they are.

As for myself, I'm happy being Not A Real Fan.

******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.

Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?

So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.


Black Breathalizer
Rohan


Jul 8 2011, 6:36pm

Post #253 of 274 (1156 views)
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oops [In reply to] Can't Post

The caption is WRONG. They have the names reversed. The photo is of Ori, Nori and Dori.


kiwifan
Rohan

Jul 8 2011, 6:38pm

Post #254 of 274 (1197 views)
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You're not the only frustrated person around here [In reply to] Can't Post

 


since I guess it's now my turn to feel misunderstood Frown


This was the part of Oden's post 'Just a theory' (from Thursday, in this same thread, which you wrote that you had read through) that I was referring to first:

----
'Just a theory ... and no factual support from the books (at least that I am aware of off the top of my head) but it might make sense that the dwarves in LOTR have longer beards because they are
1) older (except Gimli) and
2) have lived a somewhat "easier" lifestyle.

Let me try to explain, Thorin and company are dwarves without a home. This is the entire reason for their quest to recapture the Lonely Mountain from Smaug. Living life "outside" their home country and on the run might have impacted themselves physically, including possibly shorter beards.'
----

which is pretty clear: He (Oden) says they are on the run which to me implies being on the road, without a fixed abode. (Nothing 'essential' about that type of homelessness, to my mind).


And this was the part of your post I was referring to:
----
'I think it's great that they have braided beards. Much more practical, considering they're essentially homeless dwarves, and likely haven't had the luxury of frequent baths, access to hairbrushes and combs, etc. I'm kinda hoping that one or two of the dwarves have just let their hair go to dreads. I know that with my crazy thick hair, if I were forced to live off the land, I'd keep it braided. Also very practical for battle, not having excess hair in one's face to block your vision.'
-----

Why are you upset that I deduced that you meant 'homeless' (as without a fixed abode, see my point above re Oden's post)? After all, you said that they likely didn't have access to bathrooms and all these amenities. That, to me at least, implies that you think they do live on the road. Well, if my maths based on the LotR appendices is correct, Thorin had been living, working and amassing modest wealth in the Blue Mountains for about 90 years or so, which to me signifies plenty of time to build bathrooms etc. and to have a fairly settled life. If by 'essentially homeless' you mean 'homesick', yes, that I agree with unreservedly.




'Goodness gracious, you really are a messie!' 'Oh no, I'm not, these are all just mathoms...'


Garfeimao
Rohan


Jul 8 2011, 6:42pm

Post #255 of 274 (1226 views)
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I don't think that hairdo will survive the journey [In reply to] Can't Post

My bet is that they are all gussied up for the big meet and greet with each other, with Gandalf, and with his recommendation for a Thief. But after they are stuffed into bags by the Trolls and wrapped up in spider webbing, I have a feeling they will all get a little grungier and lose some of their luster as they get into and out of various tangles. The star shaped hairdo may we get a big squashed, and some of the decorative hair jewelry may also wind up missing.

But then, Gimli managed to stay rather unblemished most of the time too, so maybe the Dwarves have an almost magical ability remain clean like the Elves so clearly do.

Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,


Garfeimao
The orange stripey One



Cruise to Middle-earth


Phibbus
Rohan


Jul 8 2011, 7:00pm

Post #256 of 274 (1155 views)
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Yes, maybe... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
so maybe the Dwarves have an almost magical ability remain clean like the Elves so clearly do.


Just not their fingernails.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 8 2011, 7:21pm

Post #257 of 274 (1140 views)
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Species variation in Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you're being a little rigid in your categorizations, even more than the text actually indicates. While I would not expect an elf to be short and pudgy, there are a number of Elves throughout the legendarium that are specifically mentioned to be more-than-usually-tall, which to me argues a bit of variation within type. Of course, Tolkien allowed for a very wide range of types for Men - from the Dunedain and Gondorians with their Elvish blood (royal men), to the Rohirrim (noble men), to the Dunlendings (wild men) and the aboriginal (Woses). Hobbits are also a wide variety - if you re-read the intro to LOTR, he mentions a quite wide disparity in heights, as well as three different "strains" which have distinctive characteristics. I believe the height variation is something like anywhere from 2 foot 6 to over 4 feet (and able to ride a horse). Not to mention the legedary Meriadoc and Peregrin who came back from their adventure remarkably tall, thanks to Treebeard's water. There's a lot of room for variety there.

So of the 4 free races, it seems that it's Elves, the most "perfect", who have the least described variation (actually the least physical description, period). Why would dwarves have less variety than hobbits, and be as uniform as Elves? I understand that your mental picture requires it, but I'm not convinced that the text does.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


adu
Bree

Jul 8 2011, 9:41pm

Post #258 of 274 (1048 views)
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Nice... [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad to know you like them. You dont see me much because I am one of those who read and observe more than comment :)

I actually am new to the site, in the sense I joined after hearing Hobbit was going to be made, that was 2007 I believe. The LOTR trilogy (my fav movie of all time) is the sole reason I became a movie fan, and after watching the movies I read The Hobbit for the first time, and it became my favorite book ever!

So anyways, I love what I have seen of the Hobbit so far. As you said, it's a team effort and I cant wait to see the final product.


kiwifan
Rohan

Jul 8 2011, 10:08pm

Post #259 of 274 (1064 views)
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They really do look perfect! I feel so relieved [In reply to] Can't Post

because Oin and Gloin so exactly look as I have always pictured the Dwarves, even before seeing Gimli in LotR.

Maybe Nori is a hoax? (Wishful thinking on my part, I'm afraid...)

'Goodness gracious, you really are a messie!' 'Oh no, I'm not, these are all just mathoms...'


taekotemple
Grey Havens


Jul 9 2011, 2:31am

Post #260 of 274 (996 views)
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Perhaps part of the issue is this [In reply to] Can't Post

It's important when trying to make a point about someone's post, to post directly to them. By responding to my post about both Oden and my posts, it puts the burden of defending any point upon me, unless Oden read through the entire thread as well and chose to respond to you. The tone of your post sounded irritated, particularly moreso with me, so it came across as maybe being harsher than you intended.

Okay, given what you said, they've been living in the Blue Mountains. Fine. But in the story, they're travelling now. Whether they're technically homeless or not, they're on the road, and likely don't have access to amenities. That was more my point than anything else.


Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Jul 9 2011, 2:52am

Post #261 of 274 (1028 views)
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Yesterday [In reply to] Can't Post

my reaction was something along the lines of "Dear Lord, would they really do this? Why does Nori look like he's addicted to hair gell? What's a Roman orator doing with a couple of dwarves?"

but now, seeing Oin and Gloin my faith in PJ is restored. I know now that all of the dwarves won't look like Nori and therefore I can appreciate him and the others in this batch


..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.

..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar


GafferBoffin
The Shire

Jul 9 2011, 5:22am

Post #262 of 274 (1052 views)
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What kind of dwarf writes graceful Elvish script? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this still perfectly captures the rare phenomenon of a nerdy, scholarly dwarf that has unaccountably gotten pulled into a gritty adventure. His expression is of exasperation and resignation - why can't I just study my lore? Maybe the allure of recovering lost chronicles of Erebor is the only reason he signed on to begin with. Kudos to PJ for taking each and every dwarf seriously.


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 9 2011, 10:44am

Post #263 of 274 (986 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Ori is a good example where they've looked at the evidence and what little characterisation is available (in this case from the Moria sequence in the book) and extrapolated from it into a character couched in Tolkien's own writings. I suspected that Ori would be the scholar of the group, the 'Rifleman Harris' if you will and i'm glad that has been validated. It is far more satisfying for me to see that kind of development done than the kind of baseless flight of fancy approach they've taken with Nori. I have a great deal of affection for Jed Brophy and knew he was never going to be exactly the 'average' dwarf, but i would hate for him to become ill conceived hippy dealer of illicit substances. I think we've had enough of the 'pipe-weed' joke to be quite honest.

Ori isn't perfect though, i think i would have liked him to have a bit more dwarvishness to him, the discrete fawnish face-fuzz isn't sufficient to really sell him as a dwarf- i mean honestly, some hobbits grow more distinctive mutton-chops and so i think, particularly given Adam Brown's highly undwarvish look in person, they should have gone a bit further to disguise it, at least with a longer mustache (in fact hack the little braided bits from his beard and stick them on his top lip- that should do fine). At the moment he is looking very Nicholas Lyndhurst only with his lower lip packed with cotton wool as if he's doing a Don Vito Corleone impression.

Actually, if someone savvy with photoshop would be so kind- could you do the following adjustments: Shave off the points on Nori's hair and shift his head down a bit (say to the bottom of the first 'step' of hair visible to the right), stick Ori's beard braids on his top lip, and lower Dori's head down onto his shoulders too. I just want to see whether it's just a quirk of the angle and pose of them that makes their proportions look off (as well as adjusting a couple of details).

Dr Death


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 9 2011, 11:09am

Post #264 of 274 (956 views)
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The only way is up [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't say i'm being particularly rigid in this actually (first time for everything) i was happy that Frodo was as he appeared even without the rather nice Tolkienian justification. Because there was a lot of interbreeding of lines among Hobbits as well as among humans of different types there would be a fair amount of variation and sometimes a person who had characteristics indicative of say strong stoor blood but who didn't have any immediate stoor relatives would emerge from the genetic melting pot.

You seem to be implying however that variation is good, so long as it betters the average rather than worsens it. Elves may become taller than the average but not shorter (actually in Tolkien's early writings elves were depicted as being slightly shorter than humans along with their slender builds). High ranking men become more 'elven' with sharp noble features (the Gondorians for the record do not actually have Elvish blood- only the nobility of Dol Amroth were noted as such, and even then it was only a legend based on the legend of Amroth and Nimrodel. There was Elros, but i think his choice to become mortal kind of 'assimilated' his elvishness, and not all Numenoreans were descendants of the royal house and so simply had enhanced mannish physiology) but never more 'dwarven' with lumpy, rough-hewn features. That kind of 'good people have good looks' does have strong grounding in Tolkien who's description of the noble numenoreans is almost propagandic in it's prescriptiveness (something i have taken to calling the 'King and Country' interpretation of Numenor in reference to Blackadder's surmising of the magazine's depiction of the common British Tommy 'Six foot four with biceps the size of Bournemouth') but i think PJ should resist the urge to just make Middle-earth an aesthetic aristocracy where only the tall and attractive survive in noble houses. After all, if you look at say the British Royal Family, they're not exactly Britain's next top models. Prince William for example looked the spit of his mother as he grew into a fine figure of a young man, then you saw him at his wedding and good lord, what happened?! Chinless, thinning hair, George Bush's simian upper lip, hunched over, Charlie's DNA must have fought it's way through- the poor boy! Harry is their only hope of coming up with attractive royals any more- if rumours are to be believed, he's not got the curse of the Windsor looks....

Actually this entire diversion onto matters royal and matrimonial isn't a complete waste of time. Watching it i was actually thinking Harry could have been a good replacement for Rob Kazinsky, but far more than that, i think if Christopher Lee ever needed to drop out they've got the nearest vocal and physical double for him in Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Dr Death


Elfhelm
The Shire

Jul 9 2011, 2:58pm

Post #265 of 274 (936 views)
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It just seems the pic was somehow manipulated/scaled to achieve more dwarvish proportions [In reply to] Can't Post

As opposed to them looking like tall (human) men only in dwarven attire. The wigs, beards, the cut and design of the costumes etc. all add to the illusion of them having a more compact (dwarvish) build, but as dormouse pointed out their body proportions just don't seem quite right. I can understand them enhancing promotional still images in this way to ensure the end result looks convincing, but I guess in the film itself it would be much harder to do - and probably not even necessary.

Anyway, I was just wondering about what kind of photographic tricks were at play here, and as I said they look terrific, including the more traditional-looking Oin and Gloin!


Phibbus
Rohan


Jul 9 2011, 4:33pm

Post #266 of 274 (912 views)
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I posted this... [In reply to] Can't Post

Over in the Oin/Gloin thread, but maybe I should have put it here...

The two dwarf pics are very close to one another in the aspect ratio of their dimensions, even though the one Nori/Ori/Dori has a greater camera distance from the subject to accommodate the additional figure. However, if you compare the backgrounds of the two, you'll find that they're very close to the same reveal in each photo.

The easiest way to compare the backgrounds is to copy each of the two pics into a folder and then flip back and forth between them in a slide show so that both are scaled to the same pixel height. As you alternate between the two, you'll note that there are shapes in the background that remain in a consistent position (especially on the right edge and at the upper-right corner.) The background does appear to be metamorphosing between the two—I'm not sure if it's a fog-wall or what exactly, and a sort of a crack-shape appears in that upper-right corner in the second one—but the pattern does remain consistent.

So anyway, Oin and Gloin, because the camera is closer to them, appear to rise to a much greater height against the background as compared to the previous trio. To me, this indicates that the actors were probably shot against an infinity green-screen and the background punched in without scaling it to match the zoom of the primary shot.

If it is, in fact, green-screening, it is very good green screening.



Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 9 2011, 6:11pm

Post #267 of 274 (910 views)
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Actually,no. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote
You seem to be implying however that variation is good, so long as it betters the average rather than worsens it.


I'm not trying to imply this at all. In fact, you appear to have completely missed my point.

I observed that those are the variations that Tolkien tends to point out. I don't think real world royal genetics have much to do with Middle-earth, because it's apparently Elvish ancestry as well as moral heritage which makes for beauty in Tolkien's men. The Elves are the "fairest and noblest" and so Men who have more Elvish strain in them display more of those characteristics. They also tend to be the ruling houses, so in Middle-earth nobility and beauty march together in a way they rarely do in the real world.

My point is that there is the least variation described among those who are supposedly most perfect, and that all the other races show a great deal of variety. Therefore, I deduce that dwarves may also be reasonably expected to have variation among type. Dwarves will be, in general terms, taller than hobbits and shorter than men, and bearded. They tend to be stockier in build than hobbits, but we are not told if that means that they are as broad as men or somewhere in between. And even if that is the mean, there will always be those who deviate from it in some way. In fact, we do have an unusually fat dwarf in Bombur. Why can't there be an unusually slender dwarf also? Or an unusually tall, unusually short, or beautiful, or ugly...I don't see any reason to expect dwarves to be more uniform than other races, and I certainly do not expect them to be as uniform as Elves. I don't think any of the dwarves we've been shown so far deviate so far from the mean as to be un-dwarvish.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


willowing
Lorien

Jul 10 2011, 7:52am

Post #268 of 274 (861 views)
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Dori, Ori and Nori... [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh my! Does this mean that these dwarves are going to set a fashion trend for winter? The costumes are beautifully put together and if you look close enough you can see the detailing. On top of that a wide array of accessories like belts, hats, weapons, scarves.

Dori does so look like a distinguished gentleman with his silver gray hair and a very devoted brother. Cool


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Jul 11 2011, 1:38am

Post #269 of 274 (889 views)
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Ori [In reply to] Can't Post

May look better with just a longer "Fu Manchu" beard. The top lip can stay bare. Note that Alan Lee depicts certain dwarves with no hair on their top lips, but very long beards.


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 11 2011, 8:01am

Post #270 of 274 (836 views)
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Very true [In reply to] Can't Post

But a longer beard tends to denote age, so while i wouldn't mind another dwarf without a mustache and a long beard (you could argue Dori is a bit that way himself, given that his two strands of 'tache come from behind his nostrils rather than stating joined at the top at the philtrum) Ori i think works with a shorter beard, he just needs something a bit more respectable than the 'fuzz' clinging to his upper lip.

Dr Death


Bladerunner
Gondor

Jul 13 2011, 4:26pm

Post #271 of 274 (830 views)
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Dori - The Most Interesting Dwarf in the World [In reply to] Can't Post

Dori's hair is likely much longer than it appears because it is probably tied into a long pony tail that is not visible from the front view.

BTW - for some reason Dori reminds me of the "Most Intersting Man in the World" commercial.
i.e. - "I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis"....


marillaraina
Rohan

Jul 13 2011, 7:56pm

Post #272 of 274 (781 views)
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OMG [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Dori's hair is likely much longer than it appears because it is probably tied into a long pony tail that is not visible from the front view.

BTW - for some reason Dori reminds me of the "Most Intersting Man in the World" commercial.
i.e. - "I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis"....


You're RIGHT!

ROFL

Now I can't get pictures of Dori playing Jai Alai and taming lions out of my head. :) With a beautiful woman on each arm of course.


Bladerunner
Gondor

Jul 13 2011, 10:46pm

Post #273 of 274 (751 views)
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Or shown fighting dragons and spiders :0).... [In reply to] Can't Post

Dori may have a lucrative career as a celebrity spokesperson.

As for commercial opportunities for the rest of the dwarves... - "What's in Your Wallet!?".....


marillaraina
Rohan

Jul 14 2011, 5:09am

Post #274 of 274 (1700 views)
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Oh this could be fun... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Dori may have a lucrative career as a celebrity spokesperson.

As for commercial opportunities for the rest of the dwarves... - "What's in Your Wallet!?".....


I wish I had a better imagination because now I want to imagine all the spokesperson opportunities for the 13 dwarves. Well I guess Kili would be a natural for Pantene("Don't hate me because I'm beautiful") comes with his own wind machine. Bifur, Bofur and Bombur could make a great blue collar beer commercial - Maybe they could be "real men of genius". :)


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jul 14 2011, 5:09am)

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