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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The transition of Sauron/Necromancer from Hobbit to LOTR
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adu
Bree

Jul 7 2011, 12:27am

Post #1 of 33 (2110 views)
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The transition of Sauron/Necromancer from Hobbit to LOTR Can't Post

I still dont understand how the film-makers will show the transition of the Necromancer from a physical form in The Hobbit movies to becoming the Eye manifestation shown in LOTR.

This is coming from a person who has not read earlier books to know what actually happened to Sauron's character, which is what I suspect most of the audience watching the Hobbit movies would not know either.

I am curious to hear thoughts?


Elizabeth
Valinor


Jul 7 2011, 12:58am

Post #2 of 33 (627 views)
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What physical form? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Necromancer did not appear at all in The Hobbit. All the action relating to him was off stage, and all we know of that is that he withdrew from Dol Guldur to Mordor. For that matter, in the LotR books there is a reference to his having a physical form (Gollum was quoted as saying he had "nine fingers, but they were enough"). We have no idea as to what form he took in any of this, where there was a humanoid being, or the Eye, or if the Eye was just an appliance of some sort.

So, any "transition" will be entirely up to the filmmakers.






Join us in the Reading Room for "The Return of the King" Book V! starting now!

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


adu
Bree

Jul 7 2011, 1:05am

Post #3 of 33 (584 views)
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yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

That is exactly what I am looking for thoughts on. Since Sauron won't be in the Eye form in The Hobbit, what form will he take? and I wonder how they intend on showing him become the Eye, if at all, in order to show continuation for LOTR.

I dont see how they wont explain his transformation, otherwise everyone not familiar with the stories will be left wondering how the evil Sauron went from a physical form (assumption) to an Eye in about 70 yrs.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 7 2011, 1:12am

Post #4 of 33 (587 views)
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In my humble opinion Sauron was never the eye. [In reply to] Can't Post

It is the eye of Sauron not Sauron the Eye. Sauron occupies the iron tower of Baradur the Manifested eye is one of his devices.

And yes I know what Pete said. He was only jesting.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



lurtz2010
Rohan

Jul 7 2011, 1:21am

Post #5 of 33 (567 views)
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Saruman says [In reply to] Can't Post

that "he cannot yet take physical form" so I always assumed he had just been some kind of spirit thing ever since Isildur took him out but maybe it just means that he can't take physical form since the Dol Guldur battle? I hope he does have a body of some sort in the movie


adu
Bree

Jul 7 2011, 1:27am

Post #6 of 33 (539 views)
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hmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

So what form do you think they will show him in in The Hobbit? Do you imagine there will there be some epic wizard battle showing his defeat and him escaping to his Tower and hence showing the transition to the Eye manifestation


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 7 2011, 1:42am

Post #7 of 33 (534 views)
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He will be what ever he wears as he is something like a Wraith (but not). [In reply to] Can't Post

In becoming material he would be an unwraith. The cloths will make the man (er Evil Lord...demigod...).

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 7 2011, 2:32am

Post #8 of 33 (510 views)
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He says that in the movie. [In reply to] Can't Post

And you have to remember he's a traitor and has been lying to Gandalf about a number of things. He may have been saying that to keep Gandalf from suspecting that he knew more about Sauron's condition than he should.

In the book, Gollum says Sauron has only nine fingers on the Black Hands, which indicates a physical form.

It will be interesting to see how they deal with it in the Hobbit movies.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Baldor
The Shire

Jul 7 2011, 2:57am

Post #9 of 33 (512 views)
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Cumberbatch? [In reply to] Can't Post

Was Cumberbatch as Necromancer confirmed as a rumor or fact? If Cumberbatch is actually playing the Necromancer, I could definitely see an Annatar appearance for Sauron/Necro and I would support that.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 7 2011, 3:41am

Post #10 of 33 (498 views)
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Confirmed only for Smaug. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Necromancer is still speculation.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Elizabeth
Valinor


Jul 7 2011, 7:16am

Post #11 of 33 (428 views)
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...and only as a voice. [In reply to] Can't Post

It is not necessary for the Necromancer to appear in any form in The Hobbit. He may, but it is not necessary. And if he does appear at all, I think it will be as a shadowy, insubstantial form. A more concrete representation would trivialize the myth.






Join us in the Reading Room for "The Return of the King" Book V! starting now!

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


dormouse
Half-elven

Jul 7 2011, 7:17am

Post #12 of 33 (479 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never seen 'the Eye' as Sauron himself, just a representation of the intensity of his surveillance of Middle Earth and his determination to rule it. I think Suron himself is better unseen, or glimpsed only in part. Attempt to define him too completely in words or on film and you reduce the horror by putting an outline round it.

And Peter Jackson does tease!


Alientraveller
Lorien

Jul 7 2011, 10:49am

Post #13 of 33 (430 views)
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I've come under fire for saying this [In reply to] Can't Post

but I believe Sauron will live up to his title by inhabiting a corpse. This is PJ and GDT we're talking about, they're not going to pass up a chance for zombies and ghouls. Dol Guldur has a serious house of horror potential. Just imagine Gandalf and Elrond escaping the dungeons, having recovered the map and key from Thrain, only to encounter an Elf corpse with a sickly green pallor and burning red eyes like the Eye.


micha84
Rivendell

Jul 7 2011, 11:40am

Post #14 of 33 (364 views)
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exactly! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It is the eye of Sauron not Sauron the Eye. Sauron occupies the iron tower of Baradur the Manifested eye is one of his devices.

And yes I know what Pete said. He was only jesting.



Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2011, 12:22pm

Post #15 of 33 (372 views)
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Why just a corpse [In reply to] Can't Post

He could be literally inhabitating the entire Dol Guldur as his "body". Now that's the ultimate haunted house. ;)

Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster


Jettorex
Lorien


Jul 7 2011, 12:24pm

Post #16 of 33 (358 views)
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I think.. [In reply to] Can't Post

...if they show Sauron at all in TH then he will probably appear as a kind of super wraith. They dont need to show any transition to LotR because they don't show Sauron in LotR. As Kangi said, the great eye is just a device of Sauron, not Sauron himself.


- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."




Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2011, 12:30pm

Post #17 of 33 (374 views)
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Unfortunately [In reply to] Can't Post

saying things like "Saruman might have lied" and "it wasn't like that in the book" won't help us here. The point is to try to avoid creating confusion for the audience. And the LotR films did leave many viewers thinking the Eye was Sauron himself. So the question "how to explain he's not the Eye in the Hobbit" is relevant.

One way I can come up with is that Sauron is shown to use some king of similar or analogous device in Dol Guldur (the Nose of Sauron, anyone?), while still also possessing other manifestations such as possessing corpses, showing up in mirrors or taking some kind of hallucitional fair humanoid form. This would let the audience know that Sauron isn't tied to just one manifestation or body (making him more scary than a normal enemy tied into mortal flesh), and also nudge them that the Eye of the Trilogy wasn't actually Sauron.

Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster

(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Jul 7 2011, 12:31pm)


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2011, 12:45pm

Post #18 of 33 (350 views)
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I think the Eye is a periscope created by a combination of the Ithil-stone and Sauron's sorcery. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien


Jul 7 2011, 2:20pm

Post #19 of 33 (339 views)
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I like it! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...


Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien


Jul 7 2011, 2:22pm

Post #20 of 33 (347 views)
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I suppose though [In reply to] Can't Post

he will be like a " super wraith ". When he driven to Mordor I would like to see the three elven ring's power unleashed!

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2011, 2:33pm

Post #21 of 33 (345 views)
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The Three don't really have aggressive powers in the books [In reply to] Can't Post

They can preserve things quite nicely, but they're not the sort of rings you'd bring to a fight.


Scot Down South
The Shire

Jul 7 2011, 2:46pm

Post #22 of 33 (362 views)
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Key is in his name - Necromancer [In reply to] Can't Post

I go with Sauron attempting to give himself a physical body through 'dark arts' hence his reputation. He only manages an 'eye' in the LOTR books.

Sounds a bit like some other book / movie franchise hitting the screens about now but everyone has taken ideas from JRRT's work these last fifty years.


Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien


Jul 7 2011, 2:52pm

Post #23 of 33 (325 views)
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True [In reply to] Can't Post

as Galadriel used her ring to preserve and beautify Lothlorien. She also used her ring to protect the borders of Lothlorien and conceal her realm form the eye of Sauron. just as Elrond used his ring to protect the borders of Rivendell. If Nenya has the powers of concealment maybe this is how the White Council could enter Dol Guldur? Elrond's ring can control minor events (i.e. a torrent of water, in addition to its healing and preservation powers) so maybe it also can play a small part.

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 7 2011, 3:30pm

Post #24 of 33 (350 views)
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I may be mistaken but I think Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post

ordered the Eye-O-Scope from The Acme Catalog of Middle-earth Sorcery. There was a special on it in 2941.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2011, 3:46pm

Post #25 of 33 (297 views)
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I meant 'periscope' in the figurative sense, and I was not joking. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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