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The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: The Pollantir:
Are you a Homeschooler or Not
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Poll: Are you a Homeschooler or Not
Homeschool
Not
Want to be
Will be
View Results (43 votes)
 

Magpie
Immortal


Jun 4 2011, 5:16pm

Post #76 of 129 (356 views)
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I'm confused [In reply to] Can't Post

Did Kangi Ska list socialization (or the lack, thereof) in homeschooling in his post? Or are you replying to someone else and hit the 'post reply' button to the wrong post?


taekotemple
Grey Havens


Jun 4 2011, 8:13pm

Post #77 of 129 (361 views)
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As a kid who was picked on in school... [In reply to] Can't Post

I learned a lot about myself and what to give attention to in my life. Yes, it was a painful experience for me, but if my mother took me out of school and homeschooled me, I would never have learned to stick up for myself. And nowadays, because of my work doing counseling in schools, I've been able to help support other children in learning that being picked on isn't about them being less, but the bully being less.

I think using homeschooling primarily to get kids away from potentially being teased is a very bad idea. The people I know who were homeschooled for that reason have a lot more socialization issues as adults than most people I know. They do not act like their age, and in a sense, are still emotionally trapped at the age in which they were taken out of school. I think this is the big thing when it comes to socialization: some kids actually need to be in a situation where they have to face certain types of circumstances and learn to overcome them. School can provide this.

Homeschooling for the reasons of feeling the school system isn't up to par, or because a kid has a learning disability that the school system doesn't know how to support are far better reasons, in my opinion. I understand you like homeschooling. It seems like you feel it works well for you, and that's really wonderful. But any one kind of educational system (including homeschooling) that can work well for one person for a multitude of reasons can also be detrimental for another person for a multitude of reasons. Having grown up a shy kid, I think homeschooling would have been detrimental for me. Being in school, and being a good student, I built confidence in speaking up in class, which helped me build confidence in speaking up in general. So yeah, going to school instead of being homeschooled actually did help me in the socialization department.

I think the thing is, socialization is always going to be an issue when it comes to however one chooses to educate a child, and you can't ask people to ignore that. Education isn't just about what you learn from a book, but about how you live in the world. I absolutely love books (a taught myself to read when I was 3), but even I know that there are a lot of things you learn by exposing yourself to the world, by talking with people who have different values from yours, by travelling to places that are different from where you grew up. I purposefully attended a college with a cooperative education program where we had to do an internship every other semester. I had the opportunity to live in a foreign country, and in parts of the US that I would have never been inclined to visit. And I learned a lot, because I stepped outside my comfort zone. There is more of a potential of a bubble effect happening when kids are homeschooled, but it doesn't have to happen. Ultimately, good homeschooling allows for kids to socialize and step outside of that bubble. Bad homeschooling leaves us with people like one of my friends, who is 26 years old, lives with her mom on public assistance, and is afraid to get a job because she was picked on so much as a kid. I hurt for her because she's limited herself so much. The world deserves to get to know her.


Gollum the Great
Rohan


Jun 4 2011, 9:48pm

Post #78 of 129 (338 views)
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oops umm [In reply to] Can't Post

kind of bothBlush sorry, my bad!
some of the earlier posts had to do with socialization, and I misread Kangi Ska's post and thought he was talking about it too... I'm really being a good example of homeschooling, I can't even readBlush


Gollum the Great
Rohan


Jun 4 2011, 9:52pm

Post #79 of 129 (334 views)
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you're right [In reply to] Can't Post

homeschooling just to avoid teasing and stuff would be a bad reason. But I didn't mean that we home school to avoid teasing. I meant that kids can feel just as ostracized in a public school as in homeschool.
at our co-op we have a speech class, it's been really helpful in becoming comfortable with public speaking
Actually, there are many debate clubs, etc. for homeschoolers. So we do learn to fend for ourselves (this poll, for example...Smile)


Gollum the Great
Rohan


Jun 4 2011, 10:13pm

Post #80 of 129 (358 views)
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Okay, so I'd like to get a few things cleared up.... [In reply to] Can't Post

When you say "socialization", what exactly do you mean by that?
Why is socialization important (and I'm not saying it isn't, I'd just like to know what other people think)?
What do you think the effects are on a person when they don't get enough socialization?
These questions are for everyone, I'm just curious.Smile


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Jun 4 2011, 10:47pm

Post #81 of 129 (357 views)
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I might have done it for my kids if I hadn't been the family breadwinner. [In reply to] Can't Post

They had a miserable time in grade school/middle school. Though now, at ages 26 and 30, they say the experience strengthened them.

I teach at a community college, and I have had several homeschooled kids in my classes, usually because they're ready for more advanced math than their parents can manage. I find they do great. Some of them are as young as fifteen, and fit in very well with the thirty-year-olds in class. I haven't noticed any socialization problems. If socialization means dealing with really rude people, I suppose they might be at a disadvantage. But in a community college setting, where other students are in class because they want to be and are polite and respectful, homeschooled kids fit right in.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Jun 4 2011, 11:02pm

Post #82 of 129 (338 views)
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I think my daughter was about kindergarten age [In reply to] Can't Post

when I told her I was going to go to a 30th anniversary party for two gay friends of mine. She asked what "gay" was and I said "When two men or two women love each other the way your dad and I do." She said, "Oh, OK." No trauma, no age-inappropriate sex talk, just simple real life.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Jun 4 2011, 11:06pm

Post #83 of 129 (366 views)
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My kids were certainly no older than five or six [In reply to] Can't Post

when they knew we had gay friends. It didn't mean we told them all about gay sex. Just told the what they needed to know: "Ken and Tim love each other the way Dad and I do." It didn't scar them at all, and was an important thing to know about Ken and Tim. Why people make this such a big issue is beyond me.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Jun 4 2011, 11:10pm

Post #84 of 129 (301 views)
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*mods way up" // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Jun 4 2011, 11:16pm

Post #85 of 129 (310 views)
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It's like what Tolkien said about books for kids: [In reply to] Can't Post

that they should have growing room, just like their clothes :-)


taekotemple
Grey Havens


Jun 4 2011, 11:22pm

Post #86 of 129 (374 views)
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Here's what socialization means to me. [In reply to] Can't Post

Socialization isn't just about how much time you spend with other people. It's about learning appropriate social skills in a variety of settings so that you can navigate your way around most social settings without major discomfort and misunderstanding between oneself and others.

For example, say you have pretty good social skills where you grow up. Then you move to a totally different country with a different culture and language. Even if you are fluent in the language, you may not be properly socialized to understand the nuances in the language and miss part of what a person is saying. For example, my sister-in-law, who is French, sometimes misunderstands what my mother, my brothers, and I say to her because she translates our words to herself directly, without the inflections or tone of what we are saying, so she can end up taking us very literally when we are speaking figuratively.

When I travel, I often don't always get immediately pegged as an American by my behavior. This is because I pay attention to how people interact and try to fit accordingly. I remember being on a bus in The Hague, and everyone was either quietly reading, or sitting, or having conversations in low hushed tones so as not to be obtrusive. Then an American couple got on the bus and were so loud in their conversation that everyone on the bus could hear them. Now, their volume would have been normal on a city bus in the US, but it was really inappropriate and irritating in The Hague. I could see many people looking at them on the bus, some possibly making snap judgements about how Americans can be annoying.

Ultimately, we can't expect to spend our lives in a homogenized environment of people who mostly think like us. Sometimes we find ourselves among people who have very different views from ours and have to learn a way to communicate our view in a way that doesn't offend. When I shared my views about homosexuality in education, I decided to step away for a day, because I had a feeling if I got too involved in the conversation, I might say something angry or offend someone. I came back and saw that the subject turned to religion and I was glad that I had left, because I have a really big problem with people using religion to say that people are bad or wrong for loving someone. And I knew that it was likely, because I was raised Buddhist, that my view could be dismissed as me not being Christian or Catholic, and I would feel unheard (this has happened frequently in my life, btw, despite whether I make a good argument or not.) I also know that religious debates can often turn ugly. So I'm a big believer in stepping back and saying, "that's your truth, I respect that, please respect mine, and I really hope that neither of our truths will lead to harm to others." I know from how I was socialized that people are different from me, people won't always agree with me, and I have to know how to represent myself so that people know I'm not coming from a place of attack, but a place of wanting my view to be understood. That is a very perilous line at times, and you can't truly learn it until you've experienced it several times. Even I mess that up from time to time, despite being careful.

So, yeah, when I talk about socialization, I'm not talking about people not having friends or interacting with their peers. It would be disrespectful to you and the other homeschooled members of the board to imply than any of you are friendless and lack skill in interacting with people. But what I am talking about is learning how to be in a world populated by people who may have drastically different life experiences and therefore very different views, and be able to take in that into account when deciding what your view is.

There's a reason why I decided to study psychology and am trying to finish my intern hours so that I can be a licensed marriage and family therapist. It's because with all the things we are taught in school (whether from public, private, or homeschool education), we aren't really taught how to be ourselves. It can take a lot of mistakes and missteps before we know how to take all we've been taught and decide for ourselves what values we believe in. I know my values have changed since I was a child, a pre-teen, a teenager, even in my early twenties. I've done things that I would never have thought I'd do, some for good and some for ill. But because I try to make a point to learn about people, not just from books, but from interacting with them, I've learned a lot more about the world and how I want to live in it.

Some kids get homeschooled because their parents want to make sure their kids are instilled with the values they believe in. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. And those kids, as they grow up and become adults, need to figure out if those values are the ones they want to live by for the rest of their lives. Sometimes, those values are excellent values and make for good, practical, real world common sense. Sometimes those values can be alienating to others.

Ultimately, I feel that for me, the more different views and opinions that I'm exposed to, the more I can learn who I am and who I want to be. You can't always get that from a book. I really respect you for asking this question about socialization and talking about your experience in being homeschooled (as well as the others in this thread who were homeschooled.) Homeschooling can be very misunderstood, and you do show that you aren't just being kept out of school, but really getting an education. I hope that you will continue on into college and have the opportunity to learn and experience even more in life. There are few things better than being someone who is willing to learn, and you sound, from your homeschooling, like someone who is self-motivated to learn.


Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Jun 5 2011, 12:50am

Post #87 of 129 (332 views)
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While that's probably true, [In reply to] Can't Post

parents who send their kids to private school still have to pay for public school. Just because they're not actively seeking to improve public education doesn't mean they totally forsake it (even if some of them may want to).


Gollum the Great
Rohan


Jun 5 2011, 1:19am

Post #88 of 129 (347 views)
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Regardless of your religion, [In reply to] Can't Post

I respect your views because
1. you're not ranting (something I do all too oftenUnsure)
2. You have reasons to back up your views.
I will not disregard someone's views because of their religion. I may not agree, but everyone has a right to discuss issues and share their opinions.

It sounds like you are trying a lot harder than many to understand people of other cultures. Good for you!

Oh dear, here comes something controversial... I don't plan on going to college! No, I don't have anything against college. It's just my personal decision. I don't plan on a career - or rather, I plan on being a teacher, cook, launderer, and housemaid! Wink

I know how you feel when you say people often dismiss your views for some reason or other. Many people, even home schooled friends, criticize my desire to be a home schooled mom. One girl told me it was a "low aspiration". Others have said, "What if you never get married? What if you can't have kids? What if your husband dies and you have to support your family?" It can be very discouraging. It's not that I'm opposed to women having jobs, or that I think all mothers should be stay-at-home moms. I personally just want to be a mom.

Also, you're right about socialization - it's not just being able to talk to your peers. Like Gimli's Box mentioned earlier, my parents are raising me to be an adult, not a kid.They're teaching us skills that work with people of any culture (politeness, starting conversation, being respectful of other's customs and traditions). Within the circle of homeschoolers I know, this is something commonly taught.


(This post was edited by Gollum the Great on Jun 5 2011, 1:20am)


Gimli'sBox
Gondor


Jun 5 2011, 3:31am

Post #89 of 129 (332 views)
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I think you handled it very well. Kind of goes along with what GAndalf [In reply to] Can't Post

Was saying about kids being smarter than we give them credit for. Your kid asked a question and you answered it. You didn't act like "oh this isn't something you should know about. Oh it's a big deal! Aaaaahhhhh!"

But, you didn't tell them every little thing that defines a gay person. And that was a choice you made as the parent.

The school didn't tell every five year old within earshot about gay people and what they do and how if you feel this way you might be gay too.

That's the difference for me. You're the parent who's responsiblity is to raise your kid to the best of your knowledge.


aranelthehobbit22
Gondor


Jun 5 2011, 3:36am

Post #90 of 129 (293 views)
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I'm homeschooled! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Gimli'sBox
Gondor


Jun 5 2011, 3:43am

Post #91 of 129 (316 views)
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I would like to say however that [In reply to] Can't Post

If you don't have a standard higher than your self it does ultimately just become view points that can't be proven either way.

I personally don't care for religion. Religion is man's view of their surroundings through the pretense of what ever book they choose to uphold.

I'm always open for a thoughtful discussion. It always help me know why I believe something and not blindly accept what I've been taught.

And I was really proud of us all, by the way!Angelic No name calling, no hyperventilation! Wow!

To me it's really sad when "religious" discussions are known to turn ugly. Especially since most religions claim to be peaceful.

And I agree with your definition of socialization. I think that's what I really mean when I say mature. The ability to look around you and say "You know what? Nobody is screaming in this bus. That probably means I shouldn't disrupt everyone's moment with my loud mouth."


(This post was edited by Gimli'sBox on Jun 5 2011, 3:44am)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jun 5 2011, 4:23am

Post #92 of 129 (297 views)
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That's right, not one post [In reply to] Can't Post

needed to be deleted. Angelic


Gimli'sBox
Gondor


Jun 5 2011, 4:25am

Post #93 of 129 (345 views)
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One of the things my dad taught me was the usage of all vs. some. [In reply to] Can't Post

By your statement you've eliminated the possibility of any thing else but what you just said.

Which in the case of life, there aren't many cut-and-dry, all-or-nothing realities.

Which as a side note that might be what I'm saying without realizing it.

So, to clarify, I'm not saying there are absolutely no good public schools or teachers who teach there. But, most of the time (a. k. a. Some) homeschooling would be the better option as a whole.

To say all types of private schooling is a detriment to society is claiming a lot.


Gimli'sBox
Gondor


Jun 5 2011, 4:29am

Post #94 of 129 (258 views)
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I'm confuzzled...could you explain what you mean, please?// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Wraith Buster
Gondor


Jun 5 2011, 4:40am

Post #95 of 129 (291 views)
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I think [In reply to] Can't Post

In your last post you commented on how everyone was being nice.
So then he said that not one post needed to be deleted because someone was being rude.
Am I right SirDennisC?


Gimli'sBox
Gondor


Jun 5 2011, 4:42am

Post #96 of 129 (282 views)
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Ooooh! We gets it now, doesn't we precious?// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 5 2011, 12:07pm

Post #97 of 129 (300 views)
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But...do you like Lord of the Rings? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Jun 5 2011, 1:01pm

Post #98 of 129 (273 views)
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I'm proud of all of us too. [In reply to] Can't Post

This corner of the Internet is so much more rational and civilized than most of the rest of the Internet. I do love TORn! :-)


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Jun 5 2011, 1:06pm

Post #99 of 129 (281 views)
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*mods waaay up* What an amazing post! [In reply to] Can't Post

There's a whole sermon there. You are going to be an amazing therapist, with your wonderful ability to really listen.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


Jun 5 2011, 1:23pm

Post #100 of 129 (343 views)
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Some thoughts about college [In reply to] Can't Post

One of my college students who had been homeschooled was taking math so she could someday teach it to her children. Her father had told her she was to be a stay-at-home mom, and she was to take math so she could be a good one. She really wanted to study music, but papa was against it. I'm not sure what all of that means. She did very well at math, and was prone to fainting because she felt so stressed.

My daughter opted to stop college after getting an associate's degree, and not go on to get a bachelor's. Her counselor was appalled, because she was so brilliant, but I supported her in her decision. She's now working in the field she studied for (graphic design) and loving it. And making a third the salary my son is making. (He got a bachelor's degree in computer science.)

One of the brightest and most educated and wealthiest women I know never went to college. She's an amazing businesswoman who reads a lot and has written some published books.

My sister never wanted to be anything but a stay-at-home mom. But she didn't meet the man of her dreams until she was in her thirties, and in the meantime had to struggle a lot to survive. She ended up getting a PhD and then having children and being a stay-at-home mom, and an amazingly good one.

I don't know quite what my point is, except that if your goal is to be a stay-at-home mom, I think that's admirable. And that if you don't go to college, you can still be educated. Just keep reading widely. It will be good for both you and your children.


(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Jun 5 2011, 1:28pm)

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