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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Will Azog and Azanulbizar/Nanduhirion equal a glimpse of The Balrog?

AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 21 2011, 1:25am

Post #1 of 16 (856 views)
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Will Azog and Azanulbizar/Nanduhirion equal a glimpse of The Balrog? Can't Post

Just querious. For over 1,000 years, Moria had but one true Lord and Master: A Dark Power, Valarauko, Demon of Might, Lieutenant in the service of the first and greatest Dark Lord, Durin's Bane, by any other name A Balrog of Morgoth and The Balrog of Moria.

We know that Dain beheld him at the great battle of Azanylbizar/Nanduhirion. Indeed, even as he came to the gate of Moria and slew vile Azog The Goblin, he looked beyond the shadow of the gate and beheld that which haunts the deepest nightmares of all Dwarves.

Grey and the face and full of fear Dain came down from the gate and reported that, despite their absolute victory over the goblin horde, they would not enter Moria, though Thrain desprately desired to do so and felt the time had come to reclaim it. "If this is victory," said the dwarves, "our hands are too small to hold it." And Dain said to Thrain his kinsman, "You are the father of our folk. We have fought and bled for you and will again. But we will not enter Kazhad-Dum. YOU, will not enter Khazad-Dum. Only I have seen beyond the shadow of the gate. Beyond the shadow It waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The World must change, and some other power than that of The Dwarves must come through here before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria."

And so it was. Though at least one ill fated attempt can be listed, until a greater Power, The Great Wizard and veiled Ainu Gandalf came to Khazad-Dum, no dwarven colony could thrive in the abode of The Demon.

All this to say what? That when one thinks of Moria, The Balrog inevitably springs to mind. Indeed, it was he who turned it into Moria. His arising towards the end of the 2nd millennia of The Third Age was the most defining and devestating event to befall the dwarves in that age.

Likely the chief instrument of Sauron's wrath against Durin's Folk (it is suggested that Sauron's malice woke Him, and it is not at all unlikely that these two evil Maiar, with their similar histories, past service, and shared and similar spiritual natures, would be capable of some level of psychic communication with one another), but whether or no, He was the great catastrophe of The Dwarves in The Third Age of this Middle Earth. He slew thier great kings, he destroyed the mightiest and most famed of all their great kingdoms, he sent them (not to mention a number of the Silvan Elves of Lothlorien) fleeing into exile, and denied them any hope of homecoming, as Dain stated so well and clearly after the battle of Azanulbizar/Nanduhirion.

So I cannot help but wonder if Peter will give us a glimpse of him, as Dain has a terrifying glimpse of Him, if he does indeed insert some background of that great battle.

It wouldn't be a matter of spoiling the surprise of him in Fellowship, because in Fellowship he is not a surprise to the audience, having already been explicitly alluded to by Saruman, complete with illustration. It would not be a tease with no resolution. . . it is resolved in Fellowship/The Two Towers. So, what are your bets, odds, and suppositions?

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Nocalas
The Shire

May 21 2011, 1:45am

Post #2 of 16 (411 views)
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Excellent [In reply to] Can't Post

idea, I can already see the shot accompanied by that fantastic rumbling from FOTR. I loved that scene, knowing what was coming, it would be a brilliant and fitting cameo!


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


May 21 2011, 1:58am

Post #3 of 16 (422 views)
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If Peter choses to include Azanulbizar/Nanduhirion [In reply to] Can't Post

The glimpse of the Balrog would be a certainty. If they only do the death of Thror at the hands of Azog then probably not. I want the whole nine yards and have thought they would do it ever since GdT announced the two part Hobbit.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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lurtz2010
Rohan

May 21 2011, 3:06am

Post #4 of 16 (392 views)
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could they show the balrog getting discovered? [In reply to] Can't Post

does the "dwarves delving too deep" thing happen around the time of this battle? that would be cool but it has nothing to do with Smaug or even Dol Guldur so I don't see why they'd add it, but if they do then awesome.


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


May 21 2011, 3:18am

Post #5 of 16 (348 views)
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I don't think they'll show him, but possibly allude to him... [In reply to] Can't Post

...at least keep it a surprise for viewers who haven't seen Fellowship yet. I think by the time of the 3rd age it was more of an unseen threat, as it had been hidden. Unless they plan on showing Durin's death, and dwarves being driven from Moria, but I don't think that's necessary. I would rather see the dwarves be driven from Erebor, and allude to the battle at the gates of Moria with Azog's forces instead.

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 21 2011, 5:04am

Post #6 of 16 (352 views)
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Happens long before [In reply to] Can't Post

However it is the essential moment at which the Dwarves great misfortunes really come to fruition. The Kings of Moria had the Greatest of The Seven Rings, first made, last remaining and free, and Sauron desired it greatly. The Balrog awoke, likely in part due to the malice of Sauron, and when the dwarves released him delving "too Deep" he slew Durin their king, then hunted down and slew Durin's son, the next king, Nain, and destroyed the dwarf kingdom, driving the Dwarves into Exile. But for the Balrog's wrath ruining Moria, the dwarves of Durin's Line, from Thrain I to Thorin Oakenshield would have been kings in Moria and not Erebor at all.

If there is a unifying theme between The Dwarves and The Necromancer, the Ring of Durin is central to it. . . as is Durin's Bane, in many ways, for the exile from Moria predates and was even more consequential to the dwarves than the exile from Erebor by Smaug.

In showing Azog there is reason to believe that Azanulbizar/Nanduhirion will be featured in some way, if only in EE, and it is almost inconceiveable that that battle would be shown, and the dwarves great victory in that battle, without any glimpse of The Balrog, when he was the primary reason the Dwarves could not re-enter their ancient and beloved kingdom and homeland, despite having thoroughly routed the goblins.

In Reply To
does the "dwarves delving too deep" thing happen around the time of this battle? that would be cool but it has nothing to do with Smaug or even Dol Guldur so I don't see why they'd add it, but if they do then awesome.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


JWPlatt
Grey Havens

May 21 2011, 7:07am

Post #7 of 16 (316 views)
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Justification [In reply to] Can't Post

You justify things well from a story point of view. But you must also justify their inclusion in the business and production sense such that real world concerns are addressed about how well things fit into the script, the budget, the pacing, the schedule and the runtime allotted, etc.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on May 21 2011, 7:08am)


Barrel-Rider
Bree

May 21 2011, 7:47am

Post #8 of 16 (323 views)
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Glipses of the Balrog only [In reply to] Can't Post

I would prefer that Dain just zoomed in on the intense fiery eyes of the Balrog brooding in the gloom of Moria rather than any full relelation
.It just needs to be a potential menace in the background.

The real focus of the battle should be on Azog and the dwarves, and the awful sence of loss that is felt for the Dwarves that have been slain "the burned dwarves" at the battle of Azanulbizar.

The scene after Gandalf's fall in Moria in the FOTR was really heart breaking. The mass pyres after the battle of Azanulbizar could be equally effective.

Showing Thror's entrance into Moria with his death and branding at the hands of Azog should be a very powerful scene.
I can just imagine the 3D camera zooming along the ground and you are confronted by Thror's severed head scored with the name AZOG.
It will be interesting to see how PJ handles the last of the dwarf rings and its significance.


DrDeath153
Lorien

May 21 2011, 10:42am

Post #9 of 16 (385 views)
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Well this is why I think the whole Azanulbizar road is a dangerous one to tread [In reply to] Can't Post

The history of the Dwarves, their war with the Goblins and the matter of Moria is effectively a whole different story to tell and although it gives history to the story of The Hobbit, ultimately it has no direct impact on the plot in the same way the Last Alliance did for Lord of the Rings. I believe, contrary to my usual approach of 'sure, the more middle-earth the better' that in showing it in these films it will muddy the imagery and confuse the audience. Those who have seen LotR but have not read the book might see Moria and the Balrog and ask why the plot isn't about them rather than 'these new things', whereas those who haven't seen the film nor read the book might mistake Moria and the Balrog for being the Lonely Mountain and Smaug. As for me, someone familiar with both film and book, it just seems like a cluttering of imagery: the set-ups are too similar- A dwarf city abandoned after the coming of a big fiery enemy. There is a danger of both repeating imagery already seen in the existing films (a danger i become increasingly aware of in the analysis of adapting the books) and also the danger of creating unintentional dissonance and loosing focus by depicting two similar story-lines within the same film, one in a truncated 'flashback' form.

I don't believe that the events should be entirely ignored- i believe raising the issue of Moria through dialogue is a very sound idea and one that will particularly benefit the character of Balin: i think it might be kind of cool to see Balin as pessimistic of their chances of reclaiming Erebor due to the activity of the dragon and so instead favouring Moria as their target, believing the resident beasty there either departed or else gone back to his age-long slumber. But the important thing is you tell it, not show it and so avoid loosing the central emphasis on the Lonely (and mark that word- it won't be very lonely if it has Moria to keep it company in it's plight) Mountain and Smaug.

Those who remember my opinions on things will know though that i am a supporter of the Necromancer subplot, and so might claim that if i support that distraction then why not the distraction of the Balrog and Moria. My belief is that the Necromancer subplot is distinct enough tonally that it will serve as a nice contrast rather than a dissonant distraction and that so long as it does not lay dominance over the main plotline, it will work highly effectively as a point of reprieve from it, much like the Machiavellian hellish goings on in Isengard helped to break up Fellowship, Moria though is too close a match and the effect will be tonal flatness.

Dr Death


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


May 21 2011, 10:56am

Post #10 of 16 (314 views)
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I agree. [In reply to] Can't Post

However, I think PJ may be looking at the whole orc/dwarf history as a way of explaining to the audience why the dwarves are basically a scattered race, with no collective home. They've been driven from their homes in Erebor and Moria, and are desperately trying to find a way to win them back. It will indeed be very interesting to see just how PJ juggles these complications of Middle-Earth history, which I find utterly fascinating, but others might be confused by. I almost expect PJ to go overboard a bit with the history and lore and the whole Necromancer side-plot while filming, but this is expected. It's his final (probably) chance to film anything related to Tolkien and incorporate it somehow. He'll probably edit as he sees fit, but I fully expect EE of these films for just that previously stated reason.

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"


Loresilme
Valinor


May 21 2011, 8:50pm

Post #11 of 16 (211 views)
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I like that idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if it doesn't strictly have to do w/the strict storyline it could be done quickly, but in a creepy, ominous way. Very cool indeed....


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 21 2011, 9:48pm

Post #12 of 16 (226 views)
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As a conditional, IF Azog and Azanulbizar/Nanduhirion THEN a glimpse of Durin's Bane [In reply to] Can't Post

Dreadful awesome as The Balrog is, I too have mixed feelings about adding too much addenda. A part of me wants to see whole looms of additional lore provided, and then another part of me just wants a simple and entirely novel faithful one film rendetion of The Hobbit.

Yet I titled this thread thus due to the information on the ground. Azog, whether in EE only or in theatrical, is in. And why bother with Azog if there is no plan to include the war between Dwarves and Orcs. Strictly speaking, we don't need to know what became of Thror. Seeing The Animated Hobbit as a child I took it as a given that Thorin's grandfather was dead, perhaps of old age, and thought no more of it. Thrain's tale needs explaining, but that can be done without really involving Thror, at least the business of Thrain setting off for Erebor and never making it.

Thror and Azog are getting a fuller treatement, however, and that almost certainly means that Azanulbizar/Nanduhirion gets a fuller treatment, likely in prologue.

I imagine that, as you say, Peter means to give a brief synopsis of the woes and history of The Dwarves in The Third Age, up to the ruin of Erebor by Smaug The Magnificent. If that is so, one can hardly ignore The Balrog, who, in symmetry with the Malice of Sauron towards the Dwarves for reasons concerning Magic Rings and the indomitable nature of Durin's Folk, was the catalyst and key force behind the ruin of the Dwarves. Moria was their homeland and the mightiest of their Kingdoms, and their expulsion from it by the ancient Demon Lieutenant of Melkor The Morgoth was a banner moment.. . despite the wrath of orcs and even great Dragons, it is Durin's Bane who haunts the deepest nightmares of The Dwarves and of many Elves for that matter), and who first drove them into patterns of exile, the founding and fleeing of lesser (though glorious in their own right) kingdoms, and the waiting hands of Sauron etc.

Magnificent as it was, even glorious Erebor had been a home in exile. Khazad-Dum was the heartland of Durin's Folk, and when the Battle between The Dwarves and Goblins had ended, Thrain believed that the time to reclaim the kingdom of his Father's had come at last. .. but Dain had seen beyond the Shadow of The Gate, where lurked Durin's Bane, Great Nemesis of The Dwarves in The Third Age, and knew that no force of the dwarves would overcome that Dark Power.

If they do a backhistory of the war etc. I would imagine (alongside a vision of Dain chasing down Azog, and then beholding in the shadows a massive shape, darker than the surrounding gloom with flaming eyes and blade) some known voice providing narrative with the scene, something along the lines of, ". . . but at the last, the dwarves had the victory, and young Dain, cousin of Thrain and of Thorin, pursued the foul Azog over the threshold of the Gates of Khazad-Dum and there slew him. But in the moment of his triumph, Dain beheld the Dread Power that was the true Lord and Master of Moria; Bane of Durin, Lieutenant and Balrog of Morgoth of Old. And though Thrain greatly desired to reclaim Khazad-Dum, dearest of The Dwarf Kingdoms, Dain knew and declared that no strength of The Dwarves would ever overcome the Demon who had claimed Moria, and that until some greater power came and cleansed that place no colony of dwarves could ever again hold it. . ."

Key word still if. Wink

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on May 21 2011, 9:51pm)


squire
Valinor


May 21 2011, 10:23pm

Post #13 of 16 (220 views)
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"Bane of Durin"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is he another cousin of "young Dain"?

I know where you're coming from, but I think that voice-over would cause great confusion among movie viewers who had not read Appendix A.III of The Lord of the Rings.



squire online:
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens


May 21 2011, 10:24pm

Post #14 of 16 (203 views)
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You should send it that bit of narration to Peter... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that's pretty darn good, I must say. Smile

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 21 2011, 10:29pm

Post #15 of 16 (196 views)
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Why thank you, kind sir. [In reply to] Can't Post

Much appreciated. Though I think Squire feels I hammed it up a little. Dain was young and hearty by the reckoning of his folk, though. Young Saruman in Isengard always sounded good when Treebeard said it. Anyway, thanks Maiarmike, a good/kind word never goes unappreciated in my camp. Wink

In Reply To
...that's pretty darn good, I must say. Smile


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


KAOS82
Rohan


May 22 2011, 12:21am

Post #16 of 16 (327 views)
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and I agree with you :D [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ has more than 6 hours to tell us almost everything and there are also the EEs
I'm sure we'll see something impressive Wink

TÚRIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNGA & NIENOR NÍNIEL

 
 

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