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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What will we see at Dol Guldur?
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QuackingTroll
Valinor


Apr 21 2011, 2:10am

Post #1 of 76 (1929 views)
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What will we see at Dol Guldur? Can't Post

I'd like a list of some of the things, creatures, characters and events we'll see at Dol Guldur...

Here's what I've got so far...


Necromancer/Sauron - Resides in Dol Guldur. Will he be "killed" or just run away? Will he be defeated by Saruman in an ironic twist? By Gandalf, his true enemy? Will we see his 'Anatar' face?

Khamúl - Guardian of Dol Guldur, one of the 9 ringwraiths. We can't see this character die because he's in LotR, so will he just run away? Also will he be on horse or fell-beast?

Mouth of Sauron - The Black Numenorian was Sauron's messenger between Mordor and Mirkwood at this time, will we see him? Again he cannot die as we see him in later films.

Undead army - Sauron's title 'The Necromancer' is suggesive of an undead army. What will these look like?

Werewolves - Sauron's title "Lord of the Werewolves" allows a possibility of werewolf creatures (Is this what Andy Serkis was mo-capping?)

Orcs/Trolls etc. - Will these look the same as in Lord of the Rings or other orcs in The Hobbit? How many will there be if any?

The White Council
- Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Glorfindel. Who else is included and how big is this group? Do they bring an army?


glorinfidell
Bree


Apr 21 2011, 2:39am

Post #2 of 76 (1050 views)
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Zombies, and elves and trolls, oh my! [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope we see a better dead army then in ROTK. Not just green guys, but a living, yet decaying army, kinda like zombies. Seeing Kamul would be kinda cool. And as far as the white council goes, I would guess a army composed mostly of elves, from Lorien and Rivenedell. Oh, and a werewolf as a commnader in the army would be aswome!


Mortimus
Bree

Apr 21 2011, 3:00am

Post #3 of 76 (996 views)
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Not zombies by name (hopefully) [In reply to] Can't Post

Talking my pet peeve for walkies, I disapprove of the term 'zombie' for a work associated with Tolkien, given his predilection for Old Norse/Anglo-Saxon words. There are more appropriate names for appropriating than something with an African or Carribbean origin. Perhaps Fetch, Revenant or Huldra? None are wholly the same as zombie or the even more modern and too-generic 'undead', but their provenance to my ears is a little more sympathetic alongside the likes of Wight, Warg, Goblin and Troll.

Addressing the original question, I'm thinking we'll see werewolves in some form, maybe bat-shaped vampires if these aren't to be confused with the later giant bats at the BoFA. And Orcs!


Bryan
Bree

Apr 21 2011, 4:11am

Post #4 of 76 (1008 views)
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Where are the White Council meetings? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is safe to say that at least one meeting would be in Rivendell, given how much work went into re-building that set. However, Lothlorien is close to Dol Guldor. Wherever it happens, people will have to travel far. I hope someone knows something about this and chimes in.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Apr 21 2011, 4:57am

Post #5 of 76 (966 views)
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Not zombies, "wights" [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean, they're basically the same thing. More walking skeleton than just-killed person, but walking undead.

Those would be cool. And lore-tastic!

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 21 2011, 5:04am

Post #6 of 76 (1001 views)
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The Necromancer [In reply to] Can't Post

has opened a casino/hotel.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
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Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Apr 21 2011, 5:47am

Post #7 of 76 (945 views)
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When I think of that... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I can't help but think of Gandalf making himself a mechanical arm attachment and saying "Groovy...". Then before the siege he makes sure to instruct all the heathen elves about his "BOOMSTICK!", S-Mart's top-of-the-line.

The whole council/Dol Guldur stuff should make for an awesome battle-tastic finale for the first film as the dwarves are escaping the elves though, and it's the type of thing that's right up PJ's alley as far as creepiness is concerned. You have to have a suitable villain in the first movie on screen since Smaug doesn't really come into play until later.

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"


Compa_Mighty
Tol Eressea


Apr 21 2011, 5:53am

Post #8 of 76 (962 views)
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I have to ask about Khamul [In reply to] Can't Post

About a week ago, it was mentioned someplace in the forums that it was the only Nazgul to have been mentioned by name by Tolkien... where and when? The Witch King has an apocryphal name coming form a card game as well, right?

Sorry for the question, but I'm at a complete blank in this respect...

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taekotemple
Grey Havens


Apr 21 2011, 6:03am

Post #9 of 76 (912 views)
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Remind me not to gamble there [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd be afraid of what they'd do if I won the jackpot. *shivers* Unsure


turgon0402
The Shire


Apr 21 2011, 6:25am

Post #10 of 76 (964 views)
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Khamul the Easterling [In reply to] Can't Post

is mentioned in Unfinished Tales: "The Hunt for the Ring", and I think he might be mentioned in the Appendices as well but I'm not positive.


dormouse
Half-elven

Apr 21 2011, 7:30am

Post #11 of 76 (917 views)
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Well........ [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose it's on the cards that we will see some sort of pitched battle at Dol Guldur but I'm still hoping we don't - the mentions of Dol Guldur in the books don't give away much detail of what happened but it would be interesting to see them make more use of magic for the film. As for an army of the undead, under any name - no thanks, it's just not Tolkien.


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Apr 21 2011, 7:45am

Post #12 of 76 (918 views)
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That's what's great about film. [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ has the creative license to take what we know about Dol Guldur, and make it an awesome experience. All we know is that Gandalf had visited the fortress a few times to investigate, and that Saruman, who was reluctant to attack, was later talked into launching an attack in 2941 T.A. It's possible that Sauron will be shown there until they decide to attack, and then when they finally do attack, they realize he's fled once again, but they could also include Sauron, and have him weakened in battle before he flees. I don't know if they're planning on showing the beginnings of Saruman's corrupt nature at this point, as he was interested in scouring the Gladden Fields for the ring, and hoped to keep Sauron from finding it first, most likely. There are so many possibilities.

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

Apr 21 2011, 8:41am

Post #13 of 76 (917 views)
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Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post

Was Elrond in the White Council? It didn't sound like he knew of the attack upon Dol Guldor when Gandalf speaks about it in Rivendell at the end of the Hobbit!


AlatarVinyamar
Lorien

Apr 21 2011, 9:06am

Post #14 of 76 (890 views)
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I wouldn't worry overly about that. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf also talks of having been at a council of the White Wizards. Its a safe bet that Elrond will be in the White Council, along with Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast.


I don't expect to see Círdan and Glorfindel there.


Alientraveller
Lorien

Apr 21 2011, 9:08am

Post #15 of 76 (929 views)
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Continuing on from the last Dol Guldur discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=346130

As I said there, I believe Dol Guldur will be more magic based to be different from the Battle of Five Armies (White Council has no army, White Council needs no army). PJ mentioned 'remnants coming off his body' when discussing the Dol Guldur drawing so perhaps as I've suspected we'll see Sauron using corpses as a host for his spirit, and his casting out will be why he appears as the Eye in LOTR. How creepy would it be for Gandalf to discover a dead body with Sauron's voice and flaming eyes coming out of it?

I hope we see some Wraiths to but with more helmets and armour like the Witch King, as a kind of reverse foreshadowing of their Black Rider guise. They are a type of undead afterall: perhaps we'll see some of them completely invisible? I'd like to see Werewolves and Vampires too, as some kind of forebear of Wargs and Fell beasts, and some Spiders to indicate the ones Bilbo encounterd were scouts.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 21 2011, 9:32am

Post #16 of 76 (876 views)
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Well I am not so certain about Elronds presence at Dol Guldur. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are very good logistical reasons for him to remain in Rivendell.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 21 2011, 9:35am

Post #17 of 76 (886 views)
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I agree with the idea that Dol Guldur will not be a battle of armies. [In reply to] Can't Post

Beyond that your guess is as good as any.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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dormouse
Half-elven

Apr 21 2011, 10:19am

Post #18 of 76 (906 views)
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Wraiths are a different type of 'undead', though, aren't they.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... the spirit goes on because the ring won't let it die while the physical form, the body, wears away. Bilbo saying he felt 'thin and stretched' was supposed to be an early stage of the wraithing process and the Nine were said to wear hooded cloaks to give the appearance of physical form.

Seems to me that that is wholly different - the opposite, in fact - from the zombie, which is a corpse animated by some external power. Body but no spirit. Whatever you call it, that idea belongs to a completely different strain of mythology and it feels completely alien to Tolkien - well, it does to me, anyway. Unless I've got it completely wrong, the same was true of the Oathbreakers in Return of the King - they were restless ghosts, not rotting bodies. There's nothing in the books to even hint at Sauron inhabiting corpses and I really hate the idea because for me it doesn't 'fit' with Tolkien's mythology...

Just my take on it!


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Apr 21 2011, 11:01am

Post #19 of 76 (835 views)
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That would be great. [In reply to] Can't Post

But as much as I would love to see the Council basically raid Dol Guldur with magic and hell-fire not unlike many role-playing online games, PJ has stated on multiple occasions that he isn't a fan of wizards using flashy magic and all of that stuff you see in Harry Potter. He always likes to keep things more battle-based. But I could see him making exceptions for this movie, as the Necromancer is a sorcerer, and his minions are very fantastical creatures. The whole Dol Guldur sub-plot involving the council has the potential to be one hell of a climax, mixing scary, awesome, and action with dungeons and dragons goodness if it's done correctly. If it isn't (which I doubt), it would fall flat easily, and the Necromancer wouldn't seem threatening as a villain.

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"

(This post was edited by Maiarmike on Apr 21 2011, 11:03am)


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Apr 21 2011, 11:02am

Post #20 of 76 (864 views)
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I'd love to see skeletons [In reply to] Can't Post

When Peter Jackson was a kid he filmed a Harryhausen inspired fight with stop-motion skeletons, so he's clearly a fan of Jason and the Argonauts. I'd love to see a reference to those in The Hobbit, it would look incredible.


(Oversized image removed.)


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Apr 21 2011, 10:27pm)


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Apr 21 2011, 12:22pm

Post #21 of 76 (835 views)
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Tolkien doesn't make it clear [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf was not recounting the attack on Dol Guldur to Elrond privately – the book tells us that many other Elves were also present and listening. A case could be made that Elrond had gone to Dol Guldur and was already familiar with the story Gandalf was telling, but it seems unlikely. We should also take into account that Tolkien's conception of what the White Council actually was evolved considerably between the two books – in The Hobbit it was 'a great council of the white wizards' (or something to that effect), but The Lord of the Rings tells us that it was composed of just five wizards (only one of whom was white) and numerous elven-lords (and one lady). It's probable that Elrond was not even a part of the White Council in Tolkien's mind when he wrote The Hobbit, and possible that Elrond would have gone to Dol Guldur if Tolkien had had the nature and the members of the White Council sorted out at that early stage.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Apr 21 2011, 12:26pm

Post #22 of 76 (840 views)
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What about the Barrow-wights? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien describes them as rotting bodies or skeletons which have been inhabited by evil spirits – external forces; they sound very much like traditional 'undead' creatures to me. Considering that every Barrow on the Barrow-downs presumably contains one, there ought to be enough Barrow-wights to form a veritable 'undead army' if all of them are roused at once.


AlatarVinyamar
Lorien

Apr 21 2011, 12:52pm

Post #23 of 76 (823 views)
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Five Wizards? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pretty sure Alatar and Pallando were not on the White Council


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Apr 21 2011, 1:17pm

Post #24 of 76 (808 views)
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I meant three. [In reply to] Can't Post

I was not thinking straight.


dormouse
Half-elven

Apr 21 2011, 1:23pm

Post #25 of 76 (801 views)
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Well, you have a point.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I'd forgotten them, but please will you quote Tolkien's actual description of them as 'rotting bodies or skeletons which have been inhabited by evil spirits', because I can't remember it or find it. Seems to me it's the barrows that are inhabited rather than the bodies - in any case, 'the bones were stirred in the mounds' rules out any suggestion of actual bodies being animated by an external power. I think the Barrow wight is described as an individual entity with a will and agenda of its own which doesn't seem to include being called out en masse to fight battles - again, very different from zombies.

If I'm wrong, please show me where Tolkien describes Barrow wights as dead bodies animated by an external power, because that's the essence of what I'm getting at.

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