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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven
Apr 12 2011, 8:52pm
Post #1 of 7
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*ROTK: EE Appendices Discussion -- FBtS: Go Home Sam*
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Me again. One of the bigger changes to Tolkien's story that PJ & co. made was to send Sam away. The filmmakers have three reasons for it.
1. Gollum is actively trying to separate them but Tolkien never gave him a payoff. Pj wanted to complete that story arc.
2. They wanted to increase the tension by sending Frodo into Shelob's cave alone.
3. It makes Frodo a little less Angelic.
When they brought Elijah in to do ADR (additional dialogue recording) they wanted to tone down the scene a little. The first takes were really venomous and bordering on evil. The original thought was to play up Frodo's drug junkie appearance, but it wasn't working. Finally, Elijah asked if they had any other takes of the scene and they found a couple where he'd played it softer. One of those gentler takes is what we see in the final film.
So, questions time.
1. Sending Sam away: Like it? Dislike it? Hate it? Understand it but still not happy?
2. Do all stories need an arc?
3. What was your feeling on the way they played this scene? Too soft? Too harsh? Just right?
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RosieLass
Valinor
Apr 13 2011, 4:08pm
Post #2 of 7
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1. HATED it.
2. No, they don't.
3. I think what bothered me the most about this scene was not that it changed Frodo's character so radically. It was just so...impractical. What the H-E-double hockey sticks did Frodo think Sam was supposed to do? Catch the No. 27 bus back to Hobbiton????
I hated everything about it. :(
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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weaver
Half-elven
Apr 13 2011, 5:19pm
Post #3 of 7
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I've come to appreciate this scene more over time...
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Part of what I really like is the way they recover from this -- Frodo's remorse is played up so well, we get that great moment where Sam turns back, Sam's return is heroic, and the reunion of the characters is heartwarming. Taking the Sam and Frodo friendship "away" made it stronger, I think, on screen, once we got it back.
I guess I like the way it makes Frodo a more active player as well, in how Frodo and Sam get separated -- he's not taken out because he just runs off in a kind of "fey" moment -- he actively chooses this path, and then repents for it. If they filmed it as written, it would have been a great action scene -- as they adjusted it, we got character development and insight, too.
I don't have a problem with the illogic of sending Sam home here -- no one is thinking clearly, so it's not like Frodo thought about this and made sure that Sam had enough gas in the car to get back before he pulled this move. It was an emotional, paranoid thing to do, and rationality didn't have a lot to do with the choice of words or actions here.
Weaver
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 13 2011, 5:32pm
Post #4 of 7
(135 views)
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1. Sending Sam away: Like it?
Sure. It’s an interesting, thought provoking variation that makes me understand and appreciate the book even more.
FarFromHome put it nicely that Sam finally realizes he can no longer help Frodo with food (a leitmotif running all through the movie up to this part). Sam must step up if he wants to help Frodo.
Frodo sends Sam the Servant away because, as Frodo says, Sam cannot help him anymore. Like the Campbellian hero, Sam must go down, confront the fact that food is no longer what Frodo needs, and come back transformed. Sam the servant could never have defeated Shelob and saved Frodo. But Sam the Warrior could. And only Sam the Leader could have kept them going.
Dislike it?
What’s not to like?
Hate it?
Some people hate this sequence so much that they just can’t enjoy the movie. A pity since it is a good movie.
Understand it but still not happy?
It’s such a complex and multi-faceted scene that I don’t if I can say I totally understand it. Yes, it’s about the food. But it’s also about Sam being corrupted by the ring, becoming increasingly homicidal so even he admits that he isn’t himself. It’s about Frodo realizing the truth of Galadriel’s words that it will destroy them all one by one. It’s about Frodo realizing that his first impulse to leave Sam at the Anduin was correct. It's about Frodo sensing that what lies ahead makes what they've been through a walk in the park.
It heralds back to the scene with the scarecrow, where Sam realizes that if he takes one more step he’ll be leaving home and entering terra incognito. Only here Frodo realizes that if Sam takes one more step Sam will never be able to go home.
It’s about Frodo clinging to hope, hope that Gollum can be saved, and hope that Sam can get home. Because if they can, then so can he. But if they cannot, then he is lost.
2. Do all stories need an arc?
That’s what Aristotle said and who am I to argue with an old Greek?
3. What was your feeling on the way they played this scene? Too soft? Too harsh? Just right?
Very nice. One has the ambiguousness of exactly what or who is sending Sam home. Is it Gollum’s trickery? Is it the ring’s influence? Is it Frodo's love fearing that one more step and Sam will be totally lost? All, none, or something else? As producer Barrie Osborne said in the commentaries, they wanted every scene to work on more than one level. And they defintiely succeeded with this one!
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From IMDB trivia:
"A scene was cut from the finished film that showed Eowyn (Miranda Otto) stripping away her regular clothes and then dressing herself in the armor of a Rohan warrior."
*Darkstone bangs head against wall*
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BallyWhooo
Bree
Apr 14 2011, 3:12am
Post #5 of 7
(121 views)
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I'm one of those "hated it" people. It's the one change that sticks in my "craw" and I haven't seemed to be able to get over it... I guess because it is a change to my beloved Sam, who for me as a book-firster would never leave his master (alive, at least).
But... in the movie, Frodo is not really a master... he's a friend. It's a different kind of relationship and it makes sense that the screenwriters chose to treat it differently.
And then Darkstone, your insights just make a ton of sense and contain so much that I had not allowed myself to see before. Thank you for giving me some clarity!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 14 2011, 1:40pm
Post #6 of 7
(112 views)
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In two decades on the net you're the third person whose mind I've ever changed about anything!
Wow! You've made my year! Thanks!
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From IMDB trivia:
"A scene was cut from the finished film that showed Eowyn (Miranda Otto) stripping away her regular clothes and then dressing herself in the armor of a Rohan warrior."
*Darkstone bangs head against wall*
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The Party Tree
Lorien
Apr 14 2011, 9:48pm
Post #7 of 7
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Ah, another discussion of "the scene."
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1. I've always hated it, and ultimately I think it was unnecessary. Frodo in the movies was already changed drastically in FotR and TTT; I could understand why Frodo's conflict had to be shown externally in order for the audience to understand why the ring had to be destroyed, etc. This scene in RotK took this too far. I refuse to believe that Frodo would send Sam away from him, essentially to die. Frodo may have been severely taxed by his burden, but he was still intelligent. He was asking Sam to find somewhere to die alone. For him to condemn the one person who was holding him together to death is, frankly, a sickening idea in my mind.
2. How on earth could PJ suggest that Gollum doesn't have an arc? I don't understand that justification at all. But to answer the question more generally...I don't think everything needs to be clear-cut (especially when it comes to Gollum, of all people!) His arc may be more subtle in the books, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.
3. I think the scene was played very well, and that's the only thing that gets me through it. Elijah and Sean and Andy were brilliant, even if I can't stand the writing.
(This post was edited by The Party Tree on Apr 14 2011, 9:53pm)
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