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Where did Gollum/Smeagol go when he died
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Welsh hero
Gondor


Apr 4 2011, 7:12pm

Post #1 of 26 (528 views)
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Where did Gollum/Smeagol go when he died Can't Post

Simple question.......

I'm not to sure how the after life works in Tolkein's world

Twitter: @IrfonPennant


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven

Apr 4 2011, 7:44pm

Post #2 of 26 (346 views)
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Mortal fate? [In reply to] Can't Post

I presume that Hobbits (including Gollum) share the mortal fate of Men which is a mystery to Elves and Dwarves.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 4 2011, 7:45pm)


Welsh hero
Gondor


Apr 4 2011, 7:49pm

Post #3 of 26 (331 views)
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Where do elfs and dwarfs go when they die? [In reply to] Can't Post

Elfs can be killed and if I recall dwarfs can die of old age

Twitter: @IrfonPennant


jrpipik
Rivendell


Apr 4 2011, 7:53pm

Post #4 of 26 (363 views)
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According to the Silmarillion... [In reply to] Can't Post

Elves go to the Halls of Mandos in Valimar. But it should be remembered that these works are considered legends written by Men and evolving over centuries, so how much they reflect actual history is not clear.

IIRC the fate of mortals (Humans, Hobbits, Dwarves) is unknown.


(This post was edited by jrpipik on Apr 4 2011, 7:54pm)


Welsh hero
Gondor


Apr 4 2011, 7:55pm

Post #5 of 26 (324 views)
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So, they don't get to go to the same place? [In reply to] Can't Post

and what about elfs that chose to be mortal.

Twitter: @IrfonPennant


jrpipik
Rivendell


Apr 4 2011, 8:01pm

Post #6 of 26 (327 views)
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Their ultimate fates are divided. [In reply to] Can't Post

That what makes the parting of Elrond and his daughter Arwen so bitter. She makes the choice to go to wherever mortals go instead of to Mandos, so they will never see each other again.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven

Apr 4 2011, 8:16pm

Post #7 of 26 (323 views)
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The fate of Elves, Dwarves and Men [In reply to] Can't Post

Elves can also die from "weariness of the world." However, when Elves die their spirits travel to the halls of Mandos, from where they can go elsewhere in Valinor but not return to Middle-earth. An exception was apparently made for Glorfinel of Gondolin, who died fighting a Balrog during the fall of Gondolin in the First Age. He was apparently allowed to return to Middle-earth in T.A. 1975 and was settled in Rivendell by the end of the Third Age. Half-elven that choose mortality share the fate of the Gift of Men.

Elves believed that when Dwarves died, they had no life beyond Arda (the World) and the death of their bodies. However, the Dwarves themselves held that the Vala Aulë would bring them to the halls of Mandos, where they will join with the Children of Ilúvatar at the End.

When Men die, their souls go to the halls of Mandos. However, they then pass to an unknow destiny beyond the Circles of the World. Of course, we (and our religions) have our own ideas about the nature of that special destiny.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 4 2011, 8:19pm)


KAOS82
Rohan


Apr 5 2011, 12:10am

Post #8 of 26 (309 views)
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Frodo [In reply to] Can't Post

any idea about his death???
(it could be the same 4 Bilbo...)

TÚRIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNGA & NIENOR NÍNIEL


jrpipik
Rivendell


Apr 5 2011, 2:13am

Post #9 of 26 (309 views)
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Frodo, Bilbo, Sam and Gimli... [In reply to] Can't Post

...all lived out their natural span in peace and then died in Valinor.


squire
Valinor


Apr 5 2011, 2:33am

Post #10 of 26 (323 views)
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It was probably Elvenhome, not Valinor [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm always fuzzy on this, but I'm pretty sure that the mortals you mentioned were allowed to land on Tol Eressea, the Elvish island that lay offshore from the mainland known as Valinor, the home of the Valar. It's also not clear if they lived out their normal span, or whether their lives were accelerated by the immortal qualities of the land, so that they passed in a relatively few years - years which were, to be sure, blissful.

Nor is it definite that Sam made it. No one knows if he did or not, since it is only a hobbit tradition that he sailed west at the end of his life. So one can imagine that final Frodo-Sam reunion ... or not. Literarily speaking, it rather ruins the whole point of the Frodo-Sam dichotomy. Sentimentally speaking, of course, it is a very popular proposition. I think Tolkien himself was torn between literary integrity and sentiment when he wrote of Sam's final departure.



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jrpipik
Rivendell


Apr 5 2011, 2:41am

Post #11 of 26 (312 views)
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Yeah, I was not being careful. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just meant west of the sea. Though I don't think there's any way to know where they ended up, Tolkien always seemed to suggest that Tol Eressea was the best a mortal could do.

I think Sam goes too. Frodo foresees it and in the end Sam gives Elanor the Red Book and heads for the havens.


Elizabeth
Valinor


Apr 5 2011, 7:57am

Post #12 of 26 (272 views)
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...and, having died, ... [In reply to] Can't Post

...passed through Mandos to wherever mortals go.






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Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Apr 5 2011, 9:07am

Post #13 of 26 (283 views)
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Tol Eressea [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like a good point for those mortals given grace by the Valar to land. Also it is probable that those Elves such as Elrond who had just arrived in Valinor might have preferred to start there Valinor lives there as opposed to going straight onto the heart of Valinor itself, that might have been too much at first for returning Elves.


Gimli'sBox
Gondor


Apr 5 2011, 11:06pm

Post #14 of 26 (237 views)
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Well, Gollum went to hell and Smeagol went to purgatory. Jk, jk. *snert*// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Some who have read the book, or at any rate have reviewed it, have found it boring, absurd, or contemptible; and I have no cause to complain, since I have similar opinions of their works, or of the kinds of writing the evidently prefer.

"A common and boring artifact, unlike myself." -Solembum

"Gandalf has been saying many cheerful things like that" said Pippin. "He thinks I need keeping in order."

(This post was edited by Gimli'sBox on Apr 5 2011, 11:09pm)


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 6 2011, 1:23am

Post #15 of 26 (264 views)
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To answer your questions... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gollum/Smeagol would have shared whatever Fate was given to hobbits, but no "ancient lore" deals with hobbits at all and no writing of hobbits about the nature of their afterlife was written. Most PRESUME it to be shared with the Fate of Men, but nothing is ever said about it directly to my knowledge.
Dwarves have their traditions but the most telling hint of their Fate was at their making when Eru Illuvatar 'caught' Aule making them in his impatience for Illuvatar's "children". In shame, Aule took up his hammer and was going to destroy the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves when Illuvatar told him gently, "Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the begionning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein; but in no other way will I amend thy handiwork, and as thou has made it, so shall it be." It's my opinion that reading this strictly as-written means that there is no afterlife for the dwarves at all, or at best that they share a Fate similar to the Elves rather than one similar to Men and are bound to the Fate of Arda.
Elves are bound to the world and will perish when it does according to The Silmarillion.
Men are not bound to the world and that's why they're "the weakest" of all the races that live in the world is because their Fate is far greater than anything living within the world that's bound to it.

While Tol Eressea appears to be a good choice for the landing of the Bearers it doesn't work for me because the gardens of Lorien - the real healing places of the Valar, are in Valinor proper and not on Eressea. Further, it's my understanding that the whole point of not allowing the Numenoreans to land in Valinor was because, once there, they would have become immortal against the wish of Eru Illuvatar, except by combat (we know that swords can kill in Valinor from many points in The Silmarillion). Given that, I think that the Ringbearers never actually died at all but were given special dispensation immortality. Illuvatar's rule of death was broken for Beren Erchamion so it seems reasonable that on special dispensation cases that it's POSSIBLE that Frodo and Bilbo (and for those that must believe so, Sam) were granted immortality for enduring something immortally terrible (the Power of a Maia coursing through them for years - except Sam). My theory is conjecture just as much as those that insist that the Ringbearers died but at least there's some logical support for my premises.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


jrpipik
Rivendell


Apr 6 2011, 11:59am

Post #16 of 26 (241 views)
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I think this was the belief of mortals... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but not true. Sauron used this belief to seduce the Numenoreans into attacking Valinor. But nothing could change the nature of human mortality but an act of Eru. Mortals were not allowed to come to the Western lands for other reasons, which they had to accept as the will of Eru.


In Reply To
Further, it's my understanding that the whole point of not allowing the Numenoreans to land in Valinor was because, once there, they would have become immortal against the wish of Eru Illuvatar, except by combat (we know that swords can kill in Valinor from many points in The Silmarillion).



I'm pretty sure Tolkien states the mortals who come to the West at the end of the Third Age die eventually. I have no idea if it's in the Histories or a letter. I'm equally sure it's not in any of the work published in his lifetime, so open to debate about whether or not it is "canonical." (And since the whole thing is presented as legend, even if it is canonical, it may not be factual.)


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 6 2011, 2:46pm

Post #17 of 26 (228 views)
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Certainly possible... [In reply to] Can't Post

Either way is fun to imagine. I prefer the lands being immortal - otherwise why hide them at all?

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


Gwytha
Rohan


Apr 7 2011, 5:45am

Post #18 of 26 (289 views)
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Frodo's fate [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien stated in a letters written in 1963 and 1971 that mortals could not stay on earth forever. Frodo, along with Bilbo, would, after, a stay of of peace, reflection, and healing, die at a time "at their own desire and of free will." I found this in the LOTR Reader's Companion, it's not clear to me precisely where in the West they were. There is a reference to Aman but I'm not clear exactly where that is, not having got very far into the Silmarillion yet.

We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 7 2011, 2:42pm

Post #19 of 26 (234 views)
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Aye, that was the rule for the many... [In reply to] Can't Post

But hobbits' Fate was never specified and in any case we're talking here about exceptions made so to what degree are those exceptions?
I certainly agree that what you suggest is possible and even probable, but as it's never stated clearly AND there are exceptions to point to AND no one knows how long such 'healing' might take (while unsatisfying to the reader it COULD take until the remaking of the world? Who knows?)
Aman is Valinor. The difference, if any, might be that Aman is used on maps as the entire continent but for every practical purpose I've ever seen Aman and Valinor are interchangeable terms. Tol Eressea I would have considered part of Valinor/Aman except it's hinted at that it 'isn't quite'. I happen to think that Eressea was not Bilbo and Frodo's destination because it seemed clear to me they would need the healing of Lorien and that's in Valinor, not Tol Eressea.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


Gwytha
Rohan


Apr 7 2011, 3:22pm

Post #20 of 26 (236 views)
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I guess it's an obscure piece of information [In reply to] Can't Post

I notice people don't quote extensively here and I fear my paraphrasing was overly vague. I am no Tolkien scholarn but my sister(who is to be a thousand times blessed for introducing me to Tolkien's work back in the 60's)gave me a copy of the "The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion" by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull, for Christmas this year. I took it with me on my last journey through the book. Upon seeing this thread, I recalled having read there that Tolkien had specified Frodo, being mortal, would eventually die. It took me awhile to find it, but the reference is on page 671. He wrote to Milton Waldman in 1963 "Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over the Sea to heal him--if that could be done, before he died. He would eventually have to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within time." On page 672 the Companion states that he was more even more specific about Frodo's fate but the quote given addresses mortals in general rather than Frodo, so I suppose you might have to reference the letter itself; I do not know in which book it is to be found, but it was to Roger Lancelyn Green on July 17, 1971.

We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 7 2011, 3:27pm

Post #21 of 26 (230 views)
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That would be Letters of JRR Tolkien... [In reply to] Can't Post

And yes, it makes perfect sense that at some point it would happen, but it also says 'if it could happen' (his healing) so one is left to wonder just how long that chance would be given and how long it might take and if that meant dozens of years or thousands?

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


Gwytha
Rohan


Apr 7 2011, 3:56pm

Post #22 of 26 (225 views)
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Healing and death [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, the length of time before Frodo's death is unclear, but sounds as if it could have been a very long time. Whether Frodo would be ultimately healed before death seems to be left up in the air. Hammond and Scull state the 1971 letter is "more explicit about Frodo's ultimate fate," but their quote seems to be more about mortals in general. I wonder if that letter mentions Frodo's death specifically, does anyone know?

We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 7 2011, 4:15pm

Post #23 of 26 (227 views)
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Okay, you've egged me on! hehe... [In reply to] Can't Post

Letter #325, 17 July 1971, page 411, exerpt:
"As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing."
So the 'if' is answered but not the 'when' and Tolkien appears to be explicit that it might be millenia or mere 'decades'. Indeed it does not, to my mind, satisfactorily close the door entirely to it taking until the remaking of the world. Do I think that might be so? No, but all it answers really is that Frodo and Bilbo would not have immortality conferred in definitive sense, not that they might not in the practical sense. In any case I don't doubt that even though Bilbo had the Ring far longer that he was likely more easily healed and if one believes Sam ever got to Aman that he would have had his reunion with his old masters and passed nearly immediately (in relative terms) as assuredly he took very little 'hurt' from the Ring at all.
As this is all magic in nature, however, who can say how long a magic wound to the spirit takes to heal?

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


Gwytha
Rohan


Apr 7 2011, 11:26pm

Post #24 of 26 (246 views)
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Agreed, [In reply to] Can't Post

"When" is unknown, and Tolkien seems to suggest he's not really sure himself, either of how long Frodo would have lived or whether he would ever be completely healed. And the question of where he went after seems to have been left a mystery.

We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 9 2011, 3:49am

Post #25 of 26 (180 views)
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Tolkien hinted that Gollum went to Hell. [In reply to] Can't Post

Though he was reluctant to say this definitively:


Quote
Into the ultimate judgement upon Gollum I would not care to enquire. This would be to investigate 'Goddes privitee', as the Medievals said. Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him. His marvellous courage and endurance, as great as Frodo and Sam's or greater, being devoted to evil was portentous, but not honourable. I am afraid, whatever our beliefs, we have to face the fact that there are persons who yield to temptation, reject their chances of nobility or salvation, and appear to be 'damnable'. Their 'damnability' is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good). But we who are all 'in the same boat' must not usurp the Judge. The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would never have had to endure it if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path. Need it have crossed his path? Need anything dangerous ever cross any of our paths? A kind of answer cd. be found in trying to imagine Gollum overcoming temptation. The story would have been quite different! By temporizing, not fixing the still not wholly corrupt Sméagol-will towards good in the debate in the slag hole, he weakened himself for the final chance when dawning love of Frodo was too easily withered by the jealousy of Sam before Shelob's lair. After that he was lost.



Letter #181 to Michael Straight, c. Jan.-Feb. 1956 (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, pp. 234-35)

On re-reading that passage, it occurs to me that I've seen very little discussion of Sam as jealous of Gollum in the book.

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