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"The Staffs of the 5 Wizards?"

Bombadil
Half-elven

Mar 30 2011, 10:54pm

Post #1 of 18 (782 views)
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"The Staffs of the 5 Wizards?" Can't Post

I've been scouring the Appendices and we know 3 Wizards, Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast...WHO are the other 2?
Galadriel is not a wizrd, Eldrond is Not a Wizard...So who here knows who these other 2 are?


JasonTodd
The Shire


Mar 30 2011, 11:01pm

Post #2 of 18 (654 views)
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It's one of those things were your not allowed to know [In reply to] Can't Post

Kind of like the ultimate answer for life the Universe and Everything is 42 but whats the question?
Just kidding I have no idea but if someone else knows please tell!!!

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night, No evil shall escape my sight. Let those who worship evil's might beware my power
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glorinfidell
Bree


Mar 30 2011, 11:13pm

Post #3 of 18 (656 views)
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The Blue Wizards... [In reply to] Can't Post

There are two blue wizards. They went east with Saruman and never came back. Tolkien never said much about them. One is named Pallando or someting like that. I don't know much else about them.


Oiotári
Tol Eressea


Mar 30 2011, 11:33pm

Post #4 of 18 (640 views)
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Yep, Pallando is one [In reply to] Can't Post

the other is Alatar

I think there's a bit about them in Unfinished Tales, but it's been a while since I've read that book


..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.

..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar


acheron
Gondor


Mar 30 2011, 11:45pm

Post #5 of 18 (672 views)
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Tolkien didn't know when he wrote LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

He just wrote "five wizards" without having thought of the full story.

He later elaborated on it in an essay published in Unfinished Tales, where the other two wizards are the "Blue Wizards" named Alatar and Pallando, and went into the east and probably failed in their mission (though not necessarily in the same way as Saruman).

He later changed his mind in some notes published in The Peoples of Middle-earth, where the wizards are alternately named Morinehtar and Rómestámo, and went into the east and probably succeeded: creating resistance to Sauron, or in helping in battles fought off to the east that we don't see or hear about.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams


glorinfidell
Bree


Mar 31 2011, 12:32am

Post #6 of 18 (642 views)
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Allright, i found them in Unfinished tales [In reply to] Can't Post

Of the Blue, little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin, "The Blue Wizards;" for they passed into the east with Curunir, (Saruman) but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold ensared by Sauron and became his servants it its not now known.--Unfinished Tales, The Istari, page 406. Hope that helps! Wink


Felagund
Rohan


Mar 31 2011, 1:01am

Post #7 of 18 (679 views)
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Blue Wizards: sources [In reply to] Can't Post

As remarked in previous posts, the names and fates of the Ithryn Luin changed over time for Tolkien. Aside from the Unfinished Tales, Letter 211 is the other main source (small as it is):

"I think they [the Blue Wizards] were sent as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy occupied' lands, as it were. What succeess they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron"

This was written in 1958, whereas the main information in Unfinished Tales is from 1954. The Peoples of Middle-earth reference, which is arguably the most positive in terms of what the Ithryn Luin achieved for the Free Peoples, dates from 1968. Christopher Tolkien refers to but does not quote further writings on the Istari from c. 1972, also in Unfinished Tales.

Clearly, Tolkien's thinking evolved over a 20 year period or so, with the last published word being reasonably favourable with regard to the achievements of the Blue Wizards out in the far East (and possibly South), after initially painting a grim picture of their fate - failure, descent into darkness and / or ensnarement by Sauron.


Bombadil
Half-elven

Mar 31 2011, 5:35am

Post #8 of 18 (613 views)
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WOW! Thank You Tolkien-ists! [In reply to] Can't Post

This Question has always PER-X-placed me...I'm so "Hobbitly-Happy" to read what the othe "Now-A days"..other peoples of ME Worldwide, think on this Obscure subject...I personally thought I was missing something in my Studies of JRRT. Thank you agian, Old Bombadil


Bombadil
Half-elven

Mar 31 2011, 5:46pm

Post #9 of 18 (599 views)
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Great Research on this...so how YOU do understand the Staffs? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there anywhere in all of JRRT's writings that explain Wizards STAFFs?
PJ used them to great effect,MANY times... in the Orthanc sequence where Saruman seazes Gandalf's and uses the 2 to send Gandalf to the top of Orthanc...
Later Gandalf uses his to free Theodon from under his Spell,
and Agian much later to drive Nazgul from the Plennor Fields to save the Soldiers....
THE BIG one is...Gandalf Breaks Sarumans Staff, just before his Death.

but Then has "Gandalf the White"'s Staff is later broken by the Witch King...but has a New Staff almost instaneously Later?

Sure, I'm talking the Movie version of this NOW...but what do you think or Know? about Wizards's Staffs? I find this exciting Debate IDEA...Come on, give us all worldwide, your view or Opinion! xoxoxOldBombadil


acheron
Gondor


Mar 31 2011, 6:14pm

Post #10 of 18 (597 views)
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I think in the book they are mostly symbolic [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff, but I think that's just a symbol of Saruman's being expelled from the order and the council. Gandalf certainly "uses" his staff when he performs his "magic" (e.g., the Bridge of Khazad-Dum), but I don't think the idea that one of the Istari could steal the staff of another and use its power (as with Saruman and Gandalf in the movie) is there. The power of the Istari is contained within themselves, the staves are just there because they are all old men who need to lean on them.

I guess there is the incident with Gandalf bringing his staff into Meduseld; Wormtongue at least seems to think Gandalf needs the staff to perform his "magic". So maybe I'm wrong, or Wormtongue is.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams


Eruonen
Half-elven


Mar 31 2011, 6:44pm

Post #11 of 18 (585 views)
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The movie took liberties with the actual book and that scene is a major [In reply to] Can't Post

mistake in my opinion. If you read the scene in the book that never happened. This brings up the debate regarding who was stronger...Gandalf or the Witch King....by order of being...Gandalf would have been.

The wizards did not "need" staffs because they were old men...that is just an appearance. The staff is a common implement for going about rough country....and became a tool for the projection of power.


jrpipik
Rivendell


Apr 1 2011, 1:07am

Post #12 of 18 (576 views)
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Shouldn't it be staves? [In reply to] Can't Post

You'd think Tolkien would prefer the irregular plural!


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Apr 1 2011, 9:32am

Post #13 of 18 (590 views)
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I love that scene, actually. [In reply to] Can't Post

It makes for a great cinematic moment between the wizards, showing Gandalf's newly found strength, and frees Theoden at the same time, killing two birds with one stone really. Certainly a lot more interesting on screen than what Tolkien wrote, in my opinion, where Theoden magically gets better after Gandalf calls out Wormtongue, doesn't exactly make for thrilling cinema, to be honest.

"I'm just a happy camper! Rockin' and a-rollin!"


Compa_Mighty
Tol Eressea


Apr 1 2011, 1:58pm

Post #14 of 18 (603 views)
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This comes by every now and then... so, here goes my Blue Wizard Post [In reply to] Can't Post

Hope you find it interesting! Wink It's one of my favorite apocryphal Tolkien topics.

Here it is, exactly as I had posted it, from here. And also N.E. Brigand provided a link to a previous discussion on the matter, here.


Quote

But I believe the two Blue Wizards were already lost in the East by the time of the White Council. Two great pieces about the Blue Wizards: Nasmith's painting:

http://www.tednasmith.com/..._Journeying_East.jpg

And a wonderful article which was posted at a fan site, in a link I can no longer find... fortunately, I had the text in my hard drive! It's not gooing to be pretty (very long), but here goes the complete text (a very complete one) on the two wizards that were merely mentioned in the works of Tolkien:

(If anyone thinks we should start another thread for this, please tell me!)


Ithryn Luin
Meaning: The Blue Wizards
Names
Alatar and Pallando, changed to Morinehtar and Romestamo
Kind
Maiar
Family/Division
Istari
Lifespan
no known beginning or end


The blue wizards are (along with Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, and the matter of Balrog wings) probably the most uncertain and unknown characters of Professor J.R.R. Tolkien's works. Being not referred to in the Lord of the Rings trilogy--and even only Saruman’s enraged comment about “the rods of the five wizards” (The Two Towers “The Voice of Saruman") indicates the possibility of their presence--only after the death of the Professor was some relevant information revealed about them. That moment occured when Unfinished Tales was published in 1980. This book contains a collection of tales and essays that Christopher Tolkien has recovered from his father's works and edited into a book. One of those essays concerned the Istari, another name for the wizard order. Inside this section of the book, finally some information was revealed about them; and indeed, this is the greatest source about information on the Istari as a whole.

In the first text presented in Unfinished Tales, dated tentatively by Christopher Tolkien to 1954, the arrival of the wizards to the great havens is given. After a description of Saruman’s arrival, some information follows about the blue wizards:

"...But there were others, two dressed in sea-blue...of the Blue little was known in the west [of Middle-earth], and they had no names save Ithryn Luin ‘the Blue Wizards’; for they traveled to the east with Curunír, but they never returned; and whether they remaine in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants it is not now known. But none of these chances were impossible to be.”
There is another text appended to this, which Christopher Tolkien claims belongs to the same time. In it, Gandalf is stated to be the only successful Istar, which first hints at the idea that the Blue Wizards failed their mission: "Indeed, of all the Istari, only one remained faithful, and he was the last-comer" (Unfinished Tales). Here, Radagast is said to have strayed from his mission in becoming enamoured with nature. But for the Blue
Wizards, there is no mention of their fate. Still, this text indicates that their fates must be one of failure, though the story of the Blue Wizards was still early in its development

The next source, chronoligically in the development of the story, is in one of Tolkien's letters(which were published by Humphrey Carpenter in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien). In Letter 180, a draft dated January 14, 1956, Tolkien writes: "There is hardly any reference in The Lord of the Rings to things that do not actually exist on its own plane (of secondary sub-creational reality): sc. have been written." In a footnote labeled at the word exist, Tolkien adds "The Cats of Queen Berúthiel and the names and adventurers of the other 2 wizards (5 minus Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast) are all that I recollect." Thus, it is clear that at this point, really nothing had been determined, by the author himself, about who the Blue Wizards were (this letter even indicates less knowledge of the two wizardds than the first text gives above).

Another letter fills the spot of the next significant source for information on the two wizards. Letter 211, written in October 1958, offers more specific information about their fate:
"I really do not know anything clearly about the other two - since they do not concern the history of the N.W. I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."
In this text Tolkien does begin to create a little story for the Blue Wizards, or at least an explanation of their fates, somewhat like that given in the first Unfinished Tales text, though here their failure is given as the more likely outcome. Tolkien's suspicion in many cases can be taken as fact, but not always.

In Unfinished Tales there is another text which reveals a bit more information about the Blue Wizards. The dating of the text is not known, though it is placed after the writing of The Lord the Rings (it could have been written before or after the above letter, but it is not entirely important for this discussion). The text is a description of a council in Valinor in which the sending of the wizards was decided, and some new information is revealed about the Blue Wizards. Their names here are Alatar and Pallando, both Maiar of Oromë (though Pallando was changed from being a Maia of Manods and Nienna). Originally, Alatar was the only chosen by Oromë, but Alatar chose to take Pallando "as a friend." No reason is given for their attribution to Oromë, but Christopher Tolkien here speculates: "Oromë of all the Valar had the greatest knowledge of the further parts of Middle-earth, and that the Blue Wizards were destined to journey in those regions and to remain there." This idea is the one present in Letter 211, so that there is no apparent contradiction between these texts, but the creation of the Blue Wizards' names is very interesting, and hints of the existence of much more information than before, when they were not even named.

All of the above information taken from the Unfinished Tales points to the arrival in Middle-earth around 1050 years after the beggining of the third age, since they arrived
approximately at the same time as the other wizards (and this date is given in Appendix B to Return of the King). However, in 1996, when the twelfth book of the History of Middle Earth, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, was published, a new perspective on the Blue Wizards was revealed--a perspective that ran against the very information contained in essentially all previous sources on the two missing wizards. Notes that were considered uninterpretable during the writing of Unfinished Tales (as is stated in both books)were finally deciphered by Christopher Tolkien. Being written in the last years of Professor Tolkien's life - 1972 - the coming of the blue wizards is changed even in the date. The text given in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, "Last Writings," is here in full. First there is a more general overview of the wizards:
No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already over mindful of this) came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, though this has not yet been said. (what is most probable) ... Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic]by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.
Again, here, we have reference to Saruman's comment of the "Rods of the Five Wizards" and the general mysteriousness of the two remaining Istari. However, there also follows a much more specific account:
"The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age.(26) Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador.But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir -up rebellion...and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East...They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarrayinbg the forces of the East...who would both in the Second and Third Age otherwise have ...outnumbered the West."
It is now clear what Tolkien's last view on the matter (though last, like everything involving Tolkien's writings, does not simply mean finalized). The Blue Wizards arrived in the Second Age, around the year 1600 to aid in the wars against Sauron. They were not sent to help the forces of the Free Peoples in battle against evil, as the other wizards were, but to head into the east to destroy Sauron's base there amid the Easterlings. Whereas in Letter 211 the Ithryn Luin are left likely failing their mission, here the opposite is true, for they have become pivotal to the victories of the West in the Wars against Sauron by lessening Sauron's forces from the East. Also, their names are changed to Morinehtar and Romestamo.

The matter of Glorfindel is not important here other than knowing that also in late writings of Tolkien it is explicitly clear that the Glorfindel of Gondolin was reincarnated, and he returned to Middle-earth likely at the time Sauron had forged the one Ring and was preparing war on the Elves who had discovered his secret (this will be discussed in full elsewhere). The Blue Wizards are said to have come with him to Middle-earth, but again, they were not sent to bolster Elrond's forces, but rather to weaken Sauron's, to disestablish his influence in the East.

Ultimately, one can see that the Blue Wizards have had complicated history. Originally, nothing was known of them, and hardly a hint of their existence is in The Lord of the Rings. Soon, their mission to the East was established, and while at first they have even odds of succeeding and failing, it becomes very doubtful that they succeeded. However, in the ultimate texts, though the story is never fully achieved, the rumours of failure are eliminated; rather, the two wizards have become very important to the survival of Middle-earth and the defeat of Sauron. That this contradicts such statements as Gandalf being the only Wizard to remain faithful is clear, however, statements such as these are given at time when earlier ideas of the Blue Wizards were in consideration, and were not published in Tolkien's lifetime. It is suitably clear that Tolkien's final (or at least last) views on the Blue Wizards, Morinehtar and Romestamo, are those given in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, where he attributes to them an enormous role in the victories against Sauron.


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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 1 2011, 4:46pm

Post #15 of 18 (572 views)
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Great essay...well worth reposting.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Apr 2 2011, 5:25am

Post #16 of 18 (550 views)
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Staffs; Wizards [In reply to] Can't Post

There's not much I can add to the very thorough works laid out here by our fine research department on the '5 wizards' and 'Blue Wizards' in particular ~ they've covered just about everything I could have.

So, i'll just say this:

Like most of what Tolkien didn't publish, it adds up to this: Tolkien himself wasn't sure, so we can't be either! If the good Professor didn't release it himself to the public and especially when there are multiple varying accounts, we simply cannot take any of it as rock solid 'canon' like we can 'TLOR' for example, which Tolkien himself approved for publication & had the last word on.

I will say this about the names 'Palando' & 'Alatar'. They are not their Middle-earth names. They are the equivalent of Gandalf = Olorin & Saruman = Curunor, their 'Maiar names', or 'Valinorean names'. They come from an essay on them getting picked in Valinor, No Middle-earth names are ever given for the Blue Wizards.


As for the staffs, it's like anything PJ did: Run in the other direction & discard it as far as it having any validity!


Funny, this is what popped into my mind:

Gandalf saving Faramir from the route coming from the Causeway Forts....

'Shadowfax bore him, (Gandalf) shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand.

The Nazgul screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe.'

This story obviously shows that the wizard did not need a staff to use his power.

Likewise, when Saruman's staff is broken:

'He (Gandalf) raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. "Saruman, your staff is broken.' There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand....'

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Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Apr 3 2011, 7:29pm

Post #17 of 18 (529 views)
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Radagast only used his with the beasts and the birds [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Eruonen
Half-elven


Apr 4 2011, 7:05pm

Post #18 of 18 (532 views)
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I am referring to the Witch King breaking his staff at Minas Tirith....groan! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Apr 4 2011, 7:05pm)

 
 

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