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MatthewB
Bree
Mar 3 2011, 12:38pm
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"Grey" Elves, vs Moriquendi
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It is very clear that the Dark Elves of Middle Earth were not the fiendish creations imagined by later peoples, like Gary Gygax or Dave Arneson (Or Bryan Ansell & Company at Games Workshop in their earlier days).
The dark elves were simply the Elves that lived in the Darkness separate from Aman. Thranduil was a Moriquendi, Legolas was a Moriquendi.
Conversely, the Kalaquandi were those, such as the Noldor, who HAD seen the Light of Aman. The usual literary device for this is that they themselves still have that light in their eyes, or given off by their skin.
Olwë and Elwë should be considered Kalaquendi, as both went to Aman.
Yet, the Grey Elves seemed to be called this solely on account of their proximity to secondary sources of the Light of Aman: Melian and Elwë Singollo.
Would that really have been enough to justify what is a spot of faint light in the darkness of Middle-Earth during the Ages of the Trees?
I think about the fact that Tolkien refers to the stories in the Valaquenta and Quenta Silmarillion (and Grey Annals) as being Myth. This means that it is not an accurate depiction of history.
Could it have been that each of the leaders of the Quendi who went initially to Aman took several retainers, friends or family with them along the way?
Also, how many Elves were there who awoke in Cuviénen? It is obvious that there weren't a lot of children, yet in the presence of Morgoth stealing them, there must have been at least a significant number to be able to successfully breed later.
Speaking of "Family" if the Elves didn't breed, how is it that Olwë and Elwë were "Brothers" if they had no parents. Wouldn't they be just as much brothers (or sisters) as the rest of the Elves who awoke with them?
Also, their "kings" didn't seem to either marry or have children until they were in Aman. I find that to be highly suspect and probably a literary device for the Mythic telling of the story. If the Elves were like other living things, then they should have felt compelled to reproduce simply due to their biology... But, that is a different issue...
Back to the point about how many Elves originally traveled to Aman. This might better explain how to describe
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 3 2011, 1:33pm
Post #2 of 44
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Also, how many Elves were there who awoke in Cuviénen? It is obvious that there weren't a lot of children, yet in the presence of Morgoth stealing them, there must have been at least a significant number to be able to successfully breed later. I was thinking just this morning that if orcs came from the Avari, and retained their immortality, and Elvish numbers to begin with were not enormous, is it possible that some orcs would recognize the Elves they were fighting in Beleriand? "Halloo, Finduil. We awoke together. Now I'm cutting off your head." It's a huge stretch, yet remotely possible.
Would that really have been enough to justify what is a spot of faint light in the darkness of Middle-Earth during the Ages of the Trees?
It does for me. Also, Ulmo and his people visited the Grey Elves (I forget the name of the Maia of sea storms and his wife). These Elves had a proximity to Valinor and the Valar that others did not.
I think about the fact that Tolkien refers to the stories in the Valaquenta and Quenta Silmarillion (and Grey Annals) as being Myth. This means that it is not an accurate depiction of history.
Yes, of course it's myth. And his myth. So he can do anything he wants with it, including having rivers flow upstream in defiance of gravity if he'd like. He never claims it's scientifically valid, verifiable history.
Could it have been that each of the leaders of the Quendi who went initially to Aman took several retainers, friends or family with them along the way?
Very remotely possible. I think the Sil makes it clear that only those leaders were taken, and it was up to them as individuals to come back as persuasive ambassadors.
Also, how many Elves were there who awoke in Cuviénen? It is obvious that there weren't a lot of children, yet in the presence of Morgoth stealing them, there must have been at least a significant number to be able to successfully breed later.
I wonder the same thing. As they trekked toward Beleriand, they became numerous, at least, but how to quantify that. Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands, etc?
Speaking of "Family" if the Elves didn't breed, how is it that Olwë and Elwë were "Brothers" if they had no parents. Wouldn't they be just as much brothers (or sisters) as the rest of the Elves who awoke with them?
Excellent point. If they're brothers, why wasn't daddy king instead of them? But if they awoke together as prime originals, it would parallel the references in the Music of the Ainur that some were more "related" or "akin" (I forget the phrasing) than others. Just as some were disposed to become female Valar and others male.
Also, their "kings" didn't seem to either marry or have children until they were in Aman. I find that to be highly suspect and probably a literary device for the Mythic telling of the story. If the Elves were like other living things, then they should have felt compelled to reproduce simply due to their biology... But, that is a different issue...
Nothing would have prevented them from breeding along the way, except that it's inconvenient while traveling vast differences to have pregnant wives. Maybe that's why they tarried by the Anduin--birthing time. Or they had contraception. Yet also, if you're immortal, there's probably no rush to have kids. And think about it, those who lived many centuries together (like Thingol and Melian, Galadriel and Celeborn) sometimes only had one child. Only one child after centuries of amorous bonding? Either very effective family planning, or they don't have the same breeding instincts as rabbits.
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MatthewB
Bree
Mar 3 2011, 2:02pm
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Yes, of course it's myth. And his myth. So he can do anything he wants with it, including having rivers flow upstream in defiance of gravity if he'd like. He never claims it's scientifically valid, verifiable history.
This is my whole point. JRRT specifically claims that it is Myth as opposed to History. As such, it does not represent a Historical record. This is mentioned several times in The History of Middle Earth. Most notably in Morgoth's Ring where Tolkien outlines his revision of the Cosmology of Middle Earth to create a Historic rather than Mythic version of events.
Nothing would have prevented them from breeding along the way, except that it's inconvenient while traveling vast differences to have pregnant wives. Maybe that's why they tarried by the Anduin--birthing time. Or they had contraception. Yet also, if you're immortal, there's probably no rush to have kids. And think about it, those who lived many centuries together (like Thingol and Melian, Galadriel and Celeborn) sometimes only had one child. Only one child after centuries of amorous bonding? Either very effective family planning, or they don't have the same breeding instincts as rabbits.
The events related in The People's of Middle Earth deal with Elvish sex. Elves take only one wife, ever, unless their first wife dies and doesn't want to be reborn, or is incapable of being reborn. They also seem to have this sort of "recognition" where they realize that they are supposed to be together. Both hugely romantic notions. There are huge philosophical and realistic problems with these issues, dealing with the perpetuation of the species, and with simple psychology. Even if Elves only rarely died of accidents, they would still need to maintain a replacement rate... And, it also seems to make the Elves immune to certain things which Tolkien later relates they were clearly not immune to (Celeborn wishing to take Luthien as wife, for instance).
As a myth, it all works out fine, but when we move into the realm of applying the philosophy to the stories in question, things begin to fall apart... Which even JRRT realized, or else he would not have spent so much time revising his work to create both a Historical Record and revising these philosophies so that they would be in accord with the stories as related in either myth or history...
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PhantomS
Rohan
Mar 3 2011, 6:17pm
Post #4 of 44
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It is very clear that the Dark Elves of Middle Earth were not the fiendish creations imagined by later peoples, like Gary Gygax or Dave Arneson (Or Bryan Ansell & Company at Games Workshop in their earlier days).
The dark elves were simply the Elves that lived in the Darkness separate from Aman. Thranduil was a Moriquendi, Legolas was a Moriquendi.
Conversely, the Kalaquandi were those, such as the Noldor, who HAD seen the Light of Aman. The usual literary device for this is that they themselves still have that light in their eyes, or given off by their skin.
Elrond and his children are also considered High Elves despite never being to Aman; they clearly have 'the lights of stars in their eyes' when Frodo sees Elrond and Arwen at the feast before the Council. This might be connected to Elrond's having a choice of bretheren.
Olwë and Elwë should be considered Kalaquendi, as both went to Aman.
Indeed, they are both Calaquendi, which is why the slur 'Dark Elf in his caves' used by the Sons of Feanor is well and truly false in regard to Thingol. It also explains why he was the tallest Elf ever known (in combination with his proximity to Melian).
Yet, the Grey Elves seemed to be called this solely on account of their proximity to secondary sources of the Light of Aman: Melian and Elwë Singollo.
They are called Grey because they are tarrying on the Great Journey; they were supposed to go west on the other half of the Isle of Balar with Olwe but got stuck waiting for Thingol. Hence they actually want to travel west, but have delayed it for many reasons, including the visits by Ulmo and a love for Thingol. What happenned over time is that a lot of Grey Elves shunned the Sea in their hearts until it took the sights or sounds of the sea (gulls for Legolas) to reawaken the feelings of wanting to go. They are differed from the Avari, who didn't want to go in the beginning and have been forgotten in the tales. People call the Nandor (Wood Elves) Avari, but they simply tarried earlier to hang out in the forests of Middle Earth. All are Moriquendi of course.
Would that really have been enough to justify what is a spot of faint light in the darkness of Middle-Earth during the Ages of the Trees?
There was no real 'darkness' in Middle Earth while Morgoth was chained and the Trees were alive- there were Elbereth's stars and the world was calm and peaceful. Doriath was the best place to live in Beleriand due to its rulers, but arguably in the Ages of the Trees there was no real fear of the dark (especially since there's no morning yet) and hence there is no need for some refuge for light or hope.
I think about the fact that Tolkien refers to the stories in the Valaquenta and Quenta Silmarillion (and Grey Annals) as being Myth. This means that it is not an accurate depiction of history.
Could it have been that each of the leaders of the Quendi who went initially to Aman took several retainers, friends or family with them along the way?
The Silmarillion explicitly says that Ingwe, Olwe and Finwe went with Orome- who probably took them on his horse Nahar as he ventured east. The Elves hadn't established any big kingdoms or ranks yet- the three were chosen by their respective tribes as leaders and only later called kings; so no retainers, family or friends.
Also, how many Elves were there who awoke in Cuviénen? It is obvious that there weren't a lot of children, yet in the presence of Morgoth stealing them, there must have been at least a significant number to be able to successfully breed later.
The Great Journey stopped a lot of times between Cuivenen and Beleriand, as Orome guided them in stages, plus Morgoth raised mountains to slow the Elves down even more. The fact that the hosts were uneven in number made it hard to move as a group as well; that's why the Teleri, the largest host ended up breaking up into communities based in forests to become the Wood-Elves. In the Age of Trees , time didn't really mean anything so it might have taken centuries to move across the map, and thus allowing Elves to multiply and talk to things like Ents and other things.
The Elves seemed to awake as a whole race, rather than start from a single pairing (like Dwaves), so there might have been enough to make a significant breeding pool.
Speaking of "Family" if the Elves didn't breed, how is it that Olwë and Elwë were "Brothers" if they had no parents. Wouldn't they be just as much brothers (or sisters) as the rest of the Elves who awoke with them?
No one said that Olwe and Elwe were those who had awakened. Orome found the Elves almost by accident and they had settled there for quite sometime. The two were merely chosen to lead the Teleri, not necessarily being the oldest of the group.
Also, their "kings" didn't seem to either marry or have children until they were in Aman. I find that to be highly suspect and probably a literary device for the Mythic telling of the story. If the Elves were like other living things, then they should have felt compelled to reproduce simply due to their biology... But, that is a different issue...
Elves do not reproduce much; Galadriel the mighty had one child, as did Thingol. Finwe had one child then two more with Indis. Elves are like other living things, but they are not spiritually similar to them- they are immortal , so having children is not exactly a priority. It becomes a problem in the Third Age, as the remaining Elves are content to remember the past rather than rebuild the present. Legolas and Gimli discuss Men and their lines ("never shall they fail of their seed") and how they really breed quickly over time, and often fail with their potential and often doing so. Elves are in a 'perma-excellence' state of body and mind (Eol exempted) so there is little need for legacy. Like Dwarves Elves also only have one spouse in their lifetime (Finwe was an exception), so should misfortune occur they will never breed again- much unlike Men.
Back to the point about how many Elves originally traveled to Aman. This might better explain how to describe
The Silmarillion has the entirety of the Vanyar and Noldor going to Aman and roughly half the Telerin host. The latter is huge enough to merit half the Isle of Balar breaking off- so that's easily thousands of Elves by itself. The Noldor also seemed to be quite ready to expand in Aman and intermarry (Finwe, Finrod and Finarfin, for example) so they might have multiplied much faster than before. Feanor in particular ,with his seven sons (including a set of twins!). So originally the numbers might have been similar for the Vanyar and Noldor ( each around a thousand, perhaps) before landing in Aman but changed later on as the Vanyar settled near the Valar and the Noldor started learning stuff from the Valar and intermarrying with the Teleri.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 4 2011, 1:39am
Post #5 of 44
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Feanor and all his darned brats: what's up with Elvish fertility?
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Feanor's large family was an aberration. Finwe had 3 children, Fingolfin had 3, Finarfin had 5. After that, the births per family dropped off dramatically, at least those that are recorded. Fingon only had one son mentioned (Ereinion), Turgon-->Idril, Aredhel --> Maeglin, Curufin --> Celebrimbor, Orodreth --> Finduilas, Tuor + Idril --> Earendil.
1. Why did Feanor have the most kids? Miriel died because Feanor in a sense consumed her, or sucked too much out of her. She said that what should have gone into several children all went into him and left her empty. Did this extra life essence make him more fertile than most? Or was it his competitive nature that made him have the most children in his extended family? Or was he just as vigorous in carnal matters as he was in others?
2. Why didn't Feanor's sons have the same fertility rate he did? Seven sons he had, yet only one grandson is recorded.
3. In general, the Noldor's fertility rate was much higher in Valinor than in Beleriand. Was that because the Blessed Land increased their fertility, or was it part of the Curse of Mandos that reduced it? I can't believe it's because they spent too much time fighting wars since there were some centuries of peace and initial optimism thrown in there during the Siege of Angband where they could have had children.
4. Beren and Luthien only had one child, Dior, yet they were human, not Elves. No requirement that they had to have more children, but doesn't that seem a little Elvish of them to have but one? Dior was fully grown before they left their fertile years and died, and Luthien didn't seem to age normally, so I wouldn't conclude that they only had time to have one child before they died.
5. There are quite a few pairs of sons born into genealogies. Dior had a pair of sons that were left to die in the woods (I forget their names). Elrond + Elros. Elladan + Elrohir. Amrod + Amras. Huor and Hurin. Olwe and Elwe. Anarion + Isildur. Was there ever a pair of sisters? Aren't sisters always singular? Aredhel: 2 brothers. Galadriel: 4 brothers. Elwing: 2 brothers. Arwen (guess how many?): 2 brothers. Haleth: brothers, no sisters. Why are sisters always a singular phenomenon, at least as far as we know? The only exception I can think of is Rian and Morwen, who were needed to marry Huor and Hurin.
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Felagund
Rohan
Mar 4 2011, 2:31am
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Just had a quick hunt around - you find pairs of sisters / daughters in the royal line of the House of Elros and one in family line of the Princes of Dol Amroth.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Mar 4 2011, 9:59am
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That Dark or at least wild Elves would be good characters to have in Harry Potter as a kind of a contrast to the Elves they did have as servants to Wizards, they might have been quite scarry, but JK didn't go for anything like that unfortunately.
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MatthewB
Bree
Mar 4 2011, 11:37am
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Fëanor and Eöl both represent romantic archetypes run wild, expressed through Hubris.
Fëanor's many children are the result of both the "Great Fire" within him, and his desire to have a large clan that he could lead as his personal fief.
Recall that Finwë, Fëanor's father, being effectively immortal, was not likely to die for millions to billions of years (Tolkien was probably incapable of realizing the "Billions", but that would be closer to the reality if Ëa's physics were even remotely like those of our universe), and CuruFinwë (Fëanor) had a great fire burning within him that pushed him to excel, create, explore, understand, and even to conquer.
He represents the spiritual superiority of the Elves run wild, where Fëanor understands that he is superior both as a result of being among the Firstborn, and as being filled with such a bright all consuming Hröa.
As a modern day example of such archetypes: Anime.
Anime is filled with characters who are "Better Than" all others, and constantly seeking to better both themselves, and seeking potential equals (Yet constantly failing to find such). As a result, they tend to fall to loneliness. What the Characters do with this loneliness is expressed in the Anime by how the characters react. Either they will understand that it is their doom to be lonely, and seek to help others fulfill their lives' ambitions, or they will fall to hubris and seek nothing but to glorify themselves (from the Anime Naruto the characters of Naruto and Sasuke are good examples of both of these archetypes).
Being in Aman, Fëanor was able to hold off this latter "fall" for a very long time, but it kept popping up in various ways (His children, his creations, his place in his father's eyes...). When he finally rebelled against the natural order of Aman, he was wholly consumed by Hubris and fell solely to seeking to glorify himself and his family above all else.
Eöl never had the coddling of Aman, and thus was never able to express his own brightness and flame (Thus, one child), but he too fell to Hubris in his own creations (including Maeglin).
This is a partial answer (from the perspective of the Mythic devices, as explained by the Monomyth Theory of Joseph Campbell, of the Romantic Epic) to why Fëanor had so many children, and why we didn't see other's having so many other children (from the viewpoint of the myth).
Now, if you want to pull back and look at the numbers of Elves in Middle Earth, and the time frame involved, there must have been considerable numbers of children born given the constant state of War that waged in Beleriand in the First Age. Even with the Elves' "immortality" they would have needed to have had more than one child each just to sustain their numbers, not to mention growing in number to be able to field the massive armies that were present at later battles in the 5th Century FA. This was the primary reason that JRRT began work on the Alternative Cosmology (The "Round Earth" Cosmology) that is present in The History of Middle Earth, Volume 12: The Peoples of Middle-Earth. JRRT realized that his previous mythological conception of the stories could not possibly represent the reality of what had happened, as this would violate the laws governing nature of which he was aware (and, Christopher Tolkien relates in HoME several times that his father found this to be wholly intolerable. His father wished for Middle-Earth to function by the same laws that governed our Earth*) in the years before his death. It is a tragedy that he did not have this realization sooner, and begin working on his Historic Narrative and Cosmology at a sooner date, and thus maybe have been able to fill in many gaps that have been left vacant (such as the fact that 300 years was not enough time for men to have woken in Hildorién, learned to feed and dress themselves, rebelled against Eru and been subjugated by Melkor/Morgoth (who traveled there in person), then had a faction rebel against Melkorism that then fled westward (and was slowly "pursued" by the Men of the East, still subjugated to Melkorism) establishing several permanent enclaves of men along the way (who would later grow into the ancestors of the Bëorings and The Éorlingas in Rhovanion, and the various houses of men in Eregion who proved faithful)... JRRT realized that 300 years was just too little time for a frail race of men to make a journey that took the Elves mellinnia with the help of the Valar - and no Melkor around to give them a hard time). It is likely that he might have set aside some of his Romantic Notions, rooted in his Catholic religious beliefs, for the History that he was not willing to put into his Mythic version of events.
* Obviously, JRRT was very naive in this respect, and held considerable ignorance over the extent to which his sub-creation would have continued to violate those laws. But, he was very well aware of a great many things (basics of gravity, evolutionary science, biology) that he knew he needed to correct to make his world as compelling as it possibly could be.
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Felagund
Rohan
Mar 4 2011, 2:25pm
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On numbers of Elves at Cuiviénen and for the Great Journey
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Tolkien writes of a 'legend', preserved by the Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri (Amanyar) and Sindar, that says that 144 Elves awoke by the shores of Cuiviénen (HoMe 11, The War of the Jewels, ch. 'Quendi and Eldar'). He goes on to give proportions in terms of how many Elves joined the the great march West and how many remained behind (Avari), and divides all of the above into 'pre-historic' clans, based on the 144 original Elves. This legend doesn't tell us total numbers at the time of the Great Journey, only proportions. Also, picking up on the point made elsewhere in this thread, it looks like Tolkien regarded this kind of material as 'legend' as opposed to 'history'.
Of the original Elves, 14 became the nucleus of the Minyar clan ('Firsts'), 56 the Tatyar ('Seconds') and 74 the Nelyar ('Thirds'). Tolkien writes that these proportions persisted even as the population grew. All of the Minyar head West and become the Vanyar, half of the Tatyar head West and become the Noldor and c. 60% of the Nelyar head West and become the Teleri, Of this c. 60%, less than half complete the journey to Valinor, with the majority 'becoming' Nandor or Sindar. In terms of Amanyar / Calaquendi vs Úmanyar / Moriquendi, the proportion is thus 62:82.
On birth rates for Elves, Tolkien's work is scattered with reference to various realms increasing in population during times of peace. The one example that comes to mind is the consolidation of he Silvan Elves under Thranduil following disastrous losses suffered during the War of the Last Alliance (Thranduil's father, Oropher, and many of his Silvan subjects perished on the Dagorlad). You can find this in Unfinished Tales (ch. 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn).
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PhantomS
Rohan
Mar 4 2011, 3:17pm
Post #10 of 44
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3. In general, the Noldor's fertility rate was much higher in Valinor than in Beleriand. Was that because the Blessed Land increased their fertility, or was it part of the Curse of Mandos that reduced it? I can't believe it's because they spent too much time fighting wars since there were some centuries of peace and initial optimism thrown in there during the Siege of Angband where they could have had children.
It is most likely that the Noldor were the most adventurous of the three clans and crucially, the most in need of like-minded people- they hunted, explored, studied crafts, learned and made lore and song and stuff like that; the other two clans seemed to stay in their areas- the Vanyar on the mountain of Manwe and the Teleri in the Bay of Eldamar with their two cities. The Noldor also seemed to travel widely- Finarfin, Galadriel and Finrod all marry Telerin Elves (albeit in Galadriel's case, one not from Aman).
The Noldor did have kids, like Voronwe (Tuor's guide) , Celebrimbor and Gilgalad but the very high number of deaths from Morgoth and the various other conflicts (the Sons of Feanor especially) makes the numbers unbalanced. The fact that the Sindar of Doriath or the Laiquendi didn't want anything to do with most of them did not help the situation either. When Men arrived they were welcomed into the service of the Noldor princes, mostly because they probably needed that boost to their numbers, despite the relatively small hosts of Men (all in all, barely twelve thousand of Beor and Hador people, plus Haleth's people). Hence it's more likely the 'younger' Noldor who were born in Middle Earth died in great numbers against Morgoth and the Sons of Feanor, especially when Morgoth took over the entirety of Beleriand apart from the Isle of Balar. Had Earendil failed in his quest the Noldor's second generation would be extinguished altogether. There may have been thousands of kids, but they died thanks to Morgoth and that stupid Oath.
4. Beren and Luthien only had one child, Dior, yet they were human, not Elves. No requirement that they had to have more children, but doesn't that seem a little Elvish of them to have but one? Dior was fully grown before they left their fertile years and died, and Luthien didn't seem to age normally, so I wouldn't conclude that they only had time to have one child before they died.
They were brought back without knowing how long they had to live, plus they wanted to be living quietly with the Green-Elves. Many kids would make it obvious where they lived and made them targets for the Enemy and the Sons. Dior himself seems to be a creation of necessity in order to have Elwing, since someone with those attributes should have been more powerful than he ended up being.
There are quite a few pairs of sons born into genealogies. Dior had a pair of sons that were left to die in the woods (I forget their names). Elrond + Elros. Elladan + Elrohir. Amrod + Amras. Huor and Hurin. Olwe and Elwe. Anarion + Isildur. Was there ever a pair of sisters? Aren't sisters always singular? Aredhel: 2 brothers. Galadriel: 4 brothers. Elwing: 2 brothers. Arwen (guess how many?): 2 brothers. Haleth: brothers, no sisters. Why are sisters always a singular phenomenon, at least as far as we know? The only exception I can think of is Rian and Morwen, who were needed to marry Huor and Hurin.
Arwen has at least two daughters, the Numenorean royals did have many girls (Tar-Surion's sisters famously refused the Sceptre) and indeed Ruling Queens who both seemed to cause more trouble than usual , the Hobbits definitely had many sisters, but Rian and Morwen are indeed the only two sisters we hear of that are both named, though. Theoden had many,many sisters as well.
Ioreth the wise-woman of Gondor has sisters, but thankfully Gandalf didn't name all of them!
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MatthewB
Bree
Mar 4 2011, 3:17pm
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Yes, those numbers are out of Volume 1 of HoME, and were written when Tolkien was very young (compared to his age when working on later materials).
I can see how it would fit with a legendarium, especially as 144 is a very Biblical Number.
But, 144 would be too few to support a population unless they carried DNA that was not used for anything but carrying additional chromosomes so that they would not suffer from recessive traits endangering the population...
Looking at similar legends, it is likely that the 144 represents the number of clans or houses if one were to take a historic view of the subject. That would then give an initial population of ≈ 1,440 to 144,000 Elves. That would be a sustainable number that could grow to a fairly large number in a short amount of time.
I am pretty certain that JRRT would have altered a lot of his assumptions about Elves if he had lived to build a more complete historical cosmology than he did.
Such a cosmology would also have allowed him to explore a science-fiction genre as well for the initial wars between Melkor and the rest of the Ainur, as JRRT had set Utumno on the moon. This would have placed most of the fighting between the Ainur in space. JRRT himself glossed over this part in his revised cosmology, but did write about why the sun was dark for so long.
Melkor raped the Ainur who was living in the sun and it killed her, resulting in the sun darkening until the Noldor returned to Endor from Aman when the Valar managed to find someone to replace the original spirit of fire who lived in the sun. This would have corresponded to the "Falling of the Lamps". in his Flat-Earth mythic cosmology. Valinor was a domed land in Aman. The Dome contained an image of all of the Stars in the heavens (made by Varda), sort of like a planetarium, that moved as the stars in the sky moved. When the Sun was darkened, this is when the Trees were created to light the inside of the dome. It's sides were open to allow light to spill out onto the surrounding lands (and eventually through the Calacirya).
For what JRRT wrote of this unfinished Historical Cosmology, he did a frikken awesome job of pairing the Mythic Cosmology with events in the Historic cosmology to account for the legends in the myths...
I just wish that someone had asked him about Balrogs having wings. I'll bet that he would have said "No" and then changed his mind about it.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 4 2011, 6:25pm
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There are quite a few pairs of sons born into genealogies. Dior had a pair of sons that were left to die in the woods (I forget their names). Elrond + Elros. Elladan + Elrohir. Amrod + Amras. Huor and Hurin. Olwe and Elwe. Anarion + Isildur. Was there ever a pair of sisters? Aren't sisters always singular? Aredhel: 2 brothers. Galadriel: 4 brothers. Elwing: 2 brothers. Arwen (guess how many?): 2 brothers. Haleth: brothers, no sisters. Why are sisters always a singular phenomenon, at least as far as we know? The only exception I can think of is Rian and Morwen, who were needed to marry Huor and Hurin.
I probably should have phrased it as "significant" sisters, or sister pairs playing a prominent role in the story where they had names, dialogue, a plot line to follow. There is no sisterly parallel to Boromir/Faramir or any brotherly pairing that I can think. JRR writes a lot about siblings, and there are prominent women, but never prominent sister-pair-siblings. (Is that a word Theoden would use?)
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Alatar
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Mar 5 2011, 10:51pm
Post #15 of 44
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Generalizations and what was not recorded
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2. Why didn't Feanor's sons have the same fertility rate he did? Seven sons he had, yet only one grandson is recorded. Indeed! Very little is "recorded" in my opinion, and yet wild assumptions and sweeping generalizations are made in this thread about the Elvish race. It's like taking a partial list of American Presidents, with partial lists of their immediate families and deciding that this data reflects the mating habits and quantity of children produced for everyone in North and South America! And what's it all based upon? A deceased author's mass of construction materials that were never intended for publication, is quite incomplete, is quite at odds within itself with variant ideas, should not be considered canonical, and fans are making up a bunch of stuff about it! It's up to each reader to decide in their own imagination how they'd like it to be. I imagine that all of Feanor's sons had kids and some of them were slaughtered while they were still children by Morgoth's invading creatures. There are as many unwritten stories for that world... as there were Elves. 
(This post was edited by Alatar on Mar 5 2011, 11:00pm)
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squire
Half-elven
Mar 6 2011, 12:26am
Post #18 of 44
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I think it was more than the simple term "creative process" implies
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The fun thing about History of Middle-earth is that it reveals the extent to which Tolkien re-examined his creations (like the Elves, our example here) long after he had woven them into tales. His process in doing so thus approached "analysis and interpretation" of another imagination: his own, ten or twenty or thirty years earlier.
Of course we all respect an author's privilege; his creations are his own to alter and improve, which gives authorial weight to whatever conclusions he may come to. But he was not just niggling his notes before writing - the writing had long since taken place. So casually speaking, we and he are doing the same thing when we "analyze" the Eldar. Even Tolkien admitted that there were "gaming" aspects to the exercise.
In his heart I believe he took the entire thing very seriously within the bounds of fantasy, as was his duty as a serious artist of a secondary world. Because we are not the author, I think we need not deceive ourselves that we are doing exactly as he did, or that we could ever have "answers" that would be more correct than his because we know "more" about this and that aspect of the real world.
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Alatar
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Mar 6 2011, 1:17am
Post #19 of 44
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I didn't imply that he was just "niggling notes". I'm an artist myself, and I have sketches that are over twenty years old some of which I have resumed or developed those ideas into paintings. I don't see them as someone else's work. Did Tolkien view his own earlier (and usually rough) drafts as someone else's work? What he did and what we are doing is not the same thing because the manner, intent, the purpose and the outcome are different; he was creating, we are not.
In his heart I believe he took the entire thing very seriously within the bounds of fantasy, as was his duty as a serious artist of a secondary world. Because we are not the author, I think we need not deceive ourselves that we are doing exactly as he did, or that we could ever have "answers" that would be more correct than his because we know "more" about this and that aspect of the real world.
I agree although I'm not so sure that he was beholden to any duty.
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 9 2011, 8:49pm
Post #20 of 44
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my hypothesis is that forced marriage is possible in Middle-earth, but rape and infidelity are not. Consent must be obtained, although it can be obtained by foul means, and once a relationship is created, it lasts at least until death and perhaps beyond even if the marriage is or becomes loveless. Indeed, in the case of Finwe it seems that the relationship with his first wife should have lasted beyond death, and that the Valar probably made a mistake when they allowed him to remarry.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 9 2011, 11:49pm
Post #21 of 44
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my hypothesis is that forced marriage is possible in Middle-earth, but rape and infidelity are not. Consent must be obtained, although it can be obtained by foul means, and once a relationship is created, it lasts at least until death and perhaps beyond even if the marriage is or becomes loveless. Indeed, in the case of Finwe it seems that the relationship with his first wife should have lasted beyond death, and that the Valar probably made a mistake when they allowed him to remarry.
When you state that rape and infidelity are not possible in Middle-earth, do you mean among all populations of the Free Peoples, just among Elves (or a sub-set of Elves) or... what?
Assuming that you only mean among Elves, aren't Elves creatures of free will, subject to rage, envy, madness, etc.?
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 10 2011, 6:04am
Post #22 of 44
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I mean among all peoples, free or otherwise.
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I base the hypothesis on the fact that no successful act of rape or infidelity is recorded in the voluminous history of Middle-earth. It's not a matter of free will, any more than defying gravity is a matter of free will in the Primary World.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 10 2011, 12:44pm
Post #23 of 44
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Yes, I think Curious nailed this one pretty well. Tolkien shows plenty of vices--and atrocities--in his works, but there is no adultery at all, and adultery is pretty common in the real world. He seems to have omitted it deliberately, and since it's his world, he can make up the rules that govern it. It doesn't even occur to characters to commit adultery, hence it's a law that governs the behavior of the world.
Funny that it's pretty common for legends and myths to include adultery; it played a big part in King Arthur, for just one example.
He did have other rules that were close enough to laws. No hobbit in the Shire has ever killed another hobbit on purpose. (Smeagol and Deagol weren't from the Shire.) And after Feanor and his sons are gone from the story, there is never another instance of Elves killing Elves, though Dwarves and Men will kill their own kind. Hobbits and Elves have emotions and the free will to act on them, but they never seem to translate rage into killing one of their own kind (minus the 3 Feanorian exceptions). So that's another law that rules their behavior.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 10 2011, 4:20pm
Post #24 of 44
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Too many assumptions here, I think.
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You realize that "all peoples, free or otherwise" includes not only all Men from Dúnedain to Woses, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits (and probably Ents), but also Orcs and (arguably) Trolls. I will assume that Wargs and the Great Eagles are not counted among the Peoples. Even given that Middle-earth is a fictional construct, your proposition seems extremely naive, especially given Saruman's experiments that resulted in the creation of half-orcs. I doubt that all of the subjects of his breeding program were willing participants. It also seems unlikely that Orcs in the wild were always perfect gentlemen, either with captives or with their own kind.
Tolkien not specifically writing of incidents of rape or infidelity is ont proof that none could have occurred; even a single documented incident destroys your hypothesis and a lack of such fails to prove it.
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 10 2011, 6:43pm
Post #25 of 44
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Tolkien's description of Saruman's breeding program in Morgoth's Ring
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is one of my chief pieces of evidence in support of this hypothesis:
Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Man-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.
Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed."
I will grant you that there is some ambiguity in Tolkien's description, but arguably he is not talking about rape, otherwise there would be no need to spend a few generations reducing men to the orc-level of mind and habits.
Other evidence includes three examples of forced marriage in Tolkien's fiction: Eöl and Aredhel, Brodda the Easterling and Aerin, and Ar-Pharazôn and Míriel. In each case the husbands were evil, presumably as capable of rape as anyone in Tolkien's fictional world, and yet they chose to induce the women into marrying them, rather than simply forcing themselves upon them. And there is no evidence that they mated with other women before or after those marriages.
And then there are the pages and pages of genealogies with no mention whatsoever of children born out of wedlock, or tales of infidelity, or mistresses who are given power, or anything of the sort.
Tolkien was a devout Catholic and once described LotR as a Catholic fantasy, although the Catholicism is covert, not overt. Whether he intended it or not, the world he constructed rigorously follows the Catholic paradigm of marriage.
The one crack in this structure is the attempted rape in Children of Hurin, but I would note that the rape did not succeed, and that even while Turin was living with outlaws there was no evidence of rapes that did succeed, or of any other attempted rapes.
All of this being said, I still call it a hypothesis because Tolkien never explicitly said this was one of the rules of his fantasy. But it is simpler for me to treat rape and infidelity as impossible in Tolkien's fantasy than to explain its absence in any other way.
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re: "Realistic" Elves!
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