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LotR, Book III Discussion: The Road to Isengard

Curious
Half-elven


Feb 27 2011, 1:25pm


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LotR, Book III Discussion: The Road to Isengard Can't Post

I’ve decided to pose my questions in one long post, rather than breaking it up into installments. Feel free to response in installments, though, or to respond only to the questions that are of interest to you. Also, feel free to raise your own questions, or to comment on anything I ignored. The floor is open; all thoughts on the chapter are welcome.

Summary
The battle is won, and the various principles reunited. The Rohirrim wonder at the forest that has appeared overnight. Instead of an explanation, Gandalf offers a riddle, and asks Theoden to come with him to Isengard. The King agrees, although he does not understand. But before he goes he send messengers throughout the Mark calling for an assembly at Edoras. Then Theoden, Eomer, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and twenty other Rohirrim rest and prepare to go with Gandalf to a parley at Isengard.

Meanwhile, Erkenbrand enlists the Dunlendings in the cleanup and promises them amnesty if they will take an oath not to return in arms, nor march with the enemies of Men. The Rohirrim are amazed because Saruman told them the Rohirrim burned their captives alive.

The bodies of the Rohirrim are buried in two mounds, except for Hama, who gets a separate grave. No orcs survive, and the people wonder what to do with so many orc bodies, but Gandalf (who apparently needs no rest) suggests waiting for morning.

Beginning just before sunset, Gandalf and Theoden and the others going to Isengard pass through the mysterious wood, where a road has opened up for them. Legolas wants to investigate but Gimli protests, and then turns to a different topic, the wonderful caverns of Helm’s Deep. Gimli and Legolas agree that if they survive the war, they will visit both the caverns and Fangorn together. The party passes through the woods and sees three ents, who ignore them. Gandalf tells Legolas not to speak with them. Gandalf explains that they are ents, and that they are allies Theoden did not know he had.

After four hours of easy riding under a nearly-full moon, they reach the Fords, and find that the river has dried up. They wonder about it, but Gandalf does not explain. They hear wolves and Theoden worries that they are devouring his dead riders. Gandalf shows him that his men have been buried on an eyot (small island) in the middle of the Fords. He explains that more men were scattered than slain in the battles of the Fords, and that he had set some to make this burial, and then on to Edoras to defend Theoden’s home.

As they get closer to Isengard they see clouds of steam above the Wizard’s Vale. They halt and make camp at midnight. Meanwhile, in the night the huorns leave Helm’s Deep and in the early morning, before sunrise, the huorns pass Theoden and his party on either side of their camp. Theoden's party can see little, as the huorns are hidden in gloom. Later that same night there is a rush of water and the river Isen flows again.

Back at Helm’s Deep the huorns left behind the Death Down, on which no grass will ever grow and no man will ever step, which apparently covers the slain orcs -- although no one knows if that includes the orcs who had fled into the wood.

In the morning Theoden's party approaches Isengard through a heavy mist with growing dread, as the narrator describes the ring-wall of stone in the shelter of the mountain-side which Saruman had filled with barracks and shafts, and the roads leading to Orthanc, the citadel of Saruman in the center of the vale. The narrator contrasts what Isengard used to be to what Saruman had created, and tells us that Saruman was deceived, for all his so-called improvements produced only a little, laughable copy of Mordor and Barad-dur.

As they come near to the doors of Isengard the mist finally clears, and they see that the doors, the tunnel, and the entire wall are in ruins, and that the ring beyond is filled with steaming water filled with floating wreckage. Orthanc stands in the center unbroken, but surrounded by water.

Suddenly they became aware of two small figures near them, lying on the ruins of the gate at their ease, with bottles and bowls and platters laid beside them, one asleep, the other smoking. These of course are Merry and Pippin, and Merry, who was awake but apparently not very alert, finally notices the visitors and springs up to give his greeting to Theoden and the Rohirrim. He ignores his friends, but Gandalf pries out the name of Treebeard, while Gimli erupts with (mock?) rage and genuine joy.

The Rohirrim laugh at this meeting of old friends. Theoden reveals that he has heard of hobbits, but knows no stories about them. He asks about the smoking, and Merry begins a dissertation on the subject before Gandalf interrupts him and asks where to find Treebeard. Merry directs him and the King to the northern wall, and assures them that they will find food there selected by the hobbits. Theoden bids farewell to the hobbits, and Pippin pronounces the King “‘A fine old fellow. Very polite.'”


Questions

This chapter starts out quite formally: “So it was that in the light of a fair morning King Théoden and Gandalf the White Rider met again upon the green grass beside the Deeping-stream. …” Then Gimli appears and immediately compares his kill total to Legolas’s, which changes the tone of the passage. Why does Tolkien start out so formally? Why does he have Gimli change the tone? What is the effect of moving back and forth between formal and less formal passages?

When Eomer mistakenly credits Gandalf’s wizardry for the appearance of the forest, Gandalf says he has not yet shown that he is mighty in wizardry. We know he means he did not conjure up the forest, but what about earlier events? Does this mean Gandalf’s healing of Theoden involved no wizardry? Or is he only speaking of his role in the battle?

The Battle of Helm’s Deep is a prelude to the Siege of Minas Tirith. In both cases Gandalf is drawn out of the battle; at Helm’s Deep to round up reinforcements, at Minas Tirith to rescue Faramir and care for the victims of the Black Breath. However, Gandalf seems much more frustrated about it in Minas Tirith, whereas here he seems content with his part, or lack of a part, in the battle. What is the difference?


Quote
’Ere iron was found or tree was hewn,
When young was mountain under moon;
Ere ring was made, or wrought was woe,
It walked the forests long ago.’


This is the riddle Gandalf offers about the Ents. Is Gandalf quoting something, or did he make up this rhyme/riddle on the spot? The reference to the ring sounds spontaneous, rather than quoted, since the Ring is of present concern but was not necessarily of concern in the past. Actually, Treebeard should be older than the moon, if the story of the Two Trees is to be believed. According to that story, Galadriel is older than the moon, and Treebeard is apparently older than Galadriel. However, woe is much older than the ring or the moon or even the mountains. Does any of that matter? Should we grant Gandalf/Tolkien poetic license and not nitpick?

Throughout this chapter Gandalf will play coy about the Ents and what they have accomplished at Isengard. Why? Shouldn’t Theoden be informed of the Ents’ victory over Saruman? Shouldn’t the whole of Rohan be informed by the messengers Theoden sends, so that they no longer need to worry about that particular threat? Is this an instance where Tolkien’s desire to tease and surprise the reader causes Gandalf to be unnecessarily coy? Or was it just too hard for Gandalf to credibly explain what happened without letting Theoden see for himself?

Not even one orc remained alive after the battle. That is convenient, but is it credible? Wouldn’t even one orc surrender? And, surrendering, wouldn’t even one orc be captured? Did the huorns slaughter the last of the orcs, or did some turn back from the huorns only to be slaughtered by the Rohirrim? Does anyone find this genocidal slaughter disturbing? Is it any less disturbing because we can blame the orcs themselves for refusing to surrender? Or because the orcs are, after all, monsters? Why or why not?

What would the huorns have done if the Dunlendings had run their way? Would they have distinguished between men and orcs?

Why did the men of Dunland believe Saruman’s claim that the Rohirrim burned their captives alive? The Rohirrim were long-time neighbors; didn’t they know perfectly well how the Rohirrim treated captives? Or is it possible that Saruman’s claims were based on some truth? After all, Helm Hammerhand was a fierce opponent. We know that at one time the Rohirrim hunted the Drúedain for sport. Is it possible that at some point in history the Rohirrim did burn captives alive, perhaps as a form of execution? Wouldn’t it be like Saruman to base his lies on truth, and to use a history of misunderstandings and sometimes shameful acts against the Rohirrim when inciting the Dunlendings?

Erkenbrand gives the Dunlendings amnesty. Did he consult with Theoden about this before Theoden went to sleep? Later King Elessar will give the human armies who fought for Sauron similar amnesty. Are they naive? Is the power of the oath in Middle-earth strong enough that it can be counted upon to bind former enemies? Shouldn’t they seek some kind of reparations? Was Tolkien indirectly commenting on the Treaty of Versailles that ended World War I, which demanded heavy reparations from the Germans and therefore may have led to World War II? Is it possible that the mercy of Theoden and King Elessar would also be wise in the Primary World where mere oaths are less likely to bind an opponent? Is it also possible that such mercy might be unwise? Is it a risk worth taking?

Or is the mercy shown the humans and the lack of mercy shown the orcs a symptom of the unreality of Middle-earth, where evil is externalized in monsters? By showing mercy to humans and no mercy to orcs, does Tolkien have it both ways, giving us violence without guilt next to moralizing about violence? Do heroic romances need a few guilt-free slaughters?

By blurring the distinctions between orcs and humans, Tolkien raised some troubling questions about orcs which he never resolved to his own satisfaction. Yet it seems to me that he deliberately blurs those distinctions in LotR by setting up Saruman’s breeding program and by portraying orcs as similar to human ruffians. By the end of the story, in the Scouring of the Shire, the ruffians and the half-orcs have become indistinguishable. Do you agree that Tolkien deliberately blurs the distinctions between humans and orcs? If so, why do you think Tolkien does that, despite the problems it creates? Isn’t he undermining the guilt-free premise of his own monster-driven heroic romance? Why would he do that?

The death of Hama, the captain of Theoden’s guard, gets special attention. We got to know Hama briefly, and he helped Gandalf by allowing him to keep his staff when confronting Wormtongue. But is the death of one minor character and many anonymous characters enough to bring home the tragedy of war? Or is Tolkien at fault for allowing so many of his major characters to survive? Does he glorify war by doing so? Or does he clearly distinguish this war fantasy from war in the Primary World? How can the survival of so many major characters be justified, either by the internal rules of Tolkien’s fantasy (were they protected by Higher Powers?) or by artistic license (is it okay for Tolkien to follow the artificial rules of the genre?).

Two mounds for the Rohirrim, a separate grave for Hama, and, for now, the orcs left in vast heaps. Did I miss something? What happened to the bodies of the Dunlendings? Why doesn’t Tolkien say what happened to them?


Quote
'It is hot in here,' said Legolas to Gandalf. 'I feel a great wrath about me. Do you not feel the air throb in your ears?'

'Yes,' said Gandalf.


Is this a sixth sense available only to elves and wizards, or something humans might experience, although perhaps in a different context? Have you felt the tension in the air? Has it made you sweat, made you feel hot and bothered? Has such tension ever caused the air to throb in your ears (or possibly, caused your heart to pound, which feels like a throbbing in your ears)?

How do we sense tension or wrath before anyone has erupted in anger? Does the air really change, or do we feel like it does because of the human body’s internal reaction to tension and stress? Would someone who cannot read human emotions and knows nothing of the situation feel the air change? If Legolas and Gandalf hadn’t said anything, would Gimli and the men have sensed anything?

Is Legolas describing a real change in the air, or his own physical reaction to the emotions of the huorns, which he can read and of which Gandalf is already aware? Why does Tolkien describe Legolas’s reaction in terms we can almost recognize from our own experiences? Did Tolkien imagine that trees could feel anger in the Primary World, and that he could almost sense such anger? Or am I making too much of this?

What could have become of the orcs who fled into the woods other than burial? Could they have been eaten? Other ideas? What is Tolkien implying might have happened?

Are the huorns good? Or are they neutral or even potentially evil forces, like the trees in the Old Forest, who have aligned with the good guys only because they hate the orcs? Does that explain their lack of mercy towards the orcs? Does it make it somehow more palatable than if the Rohirrim had conducted the slaughter? Why or why not?


Quote
'And,
Legolas,
when the torches are kindled and men walk on the sandy floors under the echoing domes,
ah!
then,
Legolas,
gems and crystals and veins of precious ore glint in the polished walls;
and the light glows through folded marbles,
shell-like,
translucent as the living hands of Queen Galadriel.

There are columns of white and saffron and dawn-rose,
Legolas,
fluted and twisted into dreamlike forms;
they spring up from many-coloured floors to meet the glistening pendants of the roof:
wings,
ropes,
curtains fine as frozen clouds;
spears,
banners,
pinnacles of suspended palaces!

Still lakes mirror them:
a glimmering world looks up from dark pools covered with clear glass;
cities such as the mind of Durin could scarce have imagined in his sleep,
stretch on through avenues and pillared courts,
on into the dark recesses where no light can come.

And plink!
a silver drop falls,
and the round wrinkles in the glass make all the towers bend and waver like weeds and corals in a grotto of the sea.

Then evening comes:
they fade and twinkle out;
the torches pass on into another chamber and another dream.

There is chamber after chamber,
Legolas;
hall opening out of hall,
dome after dome,
stair beyond stair;
and still the winding paths lead on into the mountains' heart.

Caves!

The Caverns of Helm's Deep!

Happy was the chance that drove me there!

It makes me weep to leave them.'


Tolkien does himself proud with this word picture. But how likely is it that no dwarves had ever seen the caverns of Helm’s Deep? How likely is it that no one has mined the caverns for the gems and crystals and veins of precious ore that can be seen in the walls? How likely is it that gems and crystals and veins of precious ore are all visible in the same cavern? Does Tolkien go over the top here? Is that okay in a fantasy?

I love the image of an underground pond as smooth as glass disturbed by a small drop of water which makes the reflection wrinkle. But how much time did Gimli have to explore “‘chamber after chamber ... hall opening out of hall, dome after dome, stair beyond stair’”? Wasn’t he fighting the orcs?

Why did Gimli save his comments until now? Doesn’t this sudden change of subject seem out of place? I know it sets up the agreement between Legolas and Gimli to visit both the caverns and Fangorn, but does it seem forced?

When Gimli and his fellow dwarves move in to the caverns of Helm’s Deep after the war, how do they earn a living? By giving tours? Doesn’t that seem unlikely?

Gimli claims that he is not unique, that “‘[n]o dwarf could be unmoved by such loveliness,’” and that “‘[n]one of Durin's race would mine those caves for stones or ore.’” But doesn’t Gimli seem different from the bumbling, pompous, greedy dwarves of The Hobbit; the sometimes sinister, greedy dwarves of The Silmarillion; or the unwise, greedy dwarves in LotR who dug too deep in Moria, and then, under Balin’s leadership, returned too soon? Is this a side of dwarves that was for some reason hidden in The Silmarillion and The Hobbit? Or is Gimli more unusual than he realizes? After all, how many dwarves befriend elves like Gimli does? Is this Galadriel’s blessing of Gimli at work, i.e., “‘... your hands will flow with gold, and yet over you gold will have no dominion’”? Is Tolkien attempting to rehabilitate the stereotype of dwarves he himself created? Or is he highlighting how Gimli differs from other dwarves, as Galadriel predicted?

Why did the ents ignore Gandalf and Theoden and his party at Helm's Deep? Why did Gandalf tell Legolas not to speak with the ents?


Quote
’But here beside the mound I will say this for your comfort: many fell in the battles of the Fords, but fewer than rumour made them. More were scattered than were slain; I gathered together all that I could find.’


Is it a good thing that the Rohirrim scattered when attacked at the Fords? Was it a deliberate strategy? If so, why didn’t they have a rendezvous point already selected? Why didn’t they continue to harass Saruman’s army? If it wasn’t deliberate, what does it say about their discipline? Why didn’t they scatter at Helm’s Deep?

How did Gandalf persuade the Rohirrim to follow his orders? Weren’t they still under the impression that Wormtongue was in charge and Gandalf was an unwelcome outsider?

Isengard is yet another Middle-earth fortress built beneath higher ground which an enemy could capture. In this case the enemy also captured the source of the water flowing through Isengard, and used it to flood the valley. Isn’t it basic strategy to capture the high ground, and to build fortresses on the highest ground available, so that the enemy has to attack from below? Why does Tolkien insist on placing his fortresses beside mountains that offer an enemy a wonderful place to attack from above? Why do the enemies, for the most part, ignore this advantage?

Are there other flaws in the design of Isengard and Orthanc? Why, for example, create such a large perimeter wall, that could only be defended by thousands of soldiers? Why create so many shafts, and so few buildings to rival Orthanc? Why is Orthanc in the center of the circle, so far from the gates? Why was the source of water apparently outside of the walled perimeter? Why wasn’t there a bolt hole Saruman could use to escape? Why didn’t Tolkien see those flaws? Or if he did see them, why didn’t he care?

This may be the only instance in LotR where the story has strayed away from the hobbits and now returns to them without first filling in the gap. We don’t know what has happened, and Gandalf apparently does not want to spoil the surprise. Unlike King Theoden, we at least know what the ents had planned. But when the riders encounter the dried up stream and see clouds of steam, like the riders we have to guess at the meaning.

Why didn’t Tolkien take us back in time to when we last saw Merry and Pippin, and continue the narrative from that point? Or, alternatively, why didn’t Tolkien leave more of Merry and Pippin’s adventures a mystery to be cleared up later? Why did we follow them up to a point, and no farther? What is the effect of introducing the hobbits now as if they are strangers?

Tolkien plays the encounter with Merry and Pippin for humor. Merry apparently tries to give a formal speech, but his attempt is undermined by his failure to notice the arrival of the visitors, Pippin’s failure to wake, the evidence that they have been eating, drinking, smoking, and sleeping, and the amusement of his audience. Did Merry care? Did he really intend to give a formal greeting and fail badly, or did he know that his speech would be more amusing than it was impressive? Certainly he does not seem flustered by the response. Is he oblivious, or was his tongue firmly in his cheek? Is this any way to address a king? How would Denethor have reacted?

Tolkien once again plays with the contrast between formal and informal speech, but in a slightly different way than at the beginning of the chapter. Here Merry is in the unusual position of giving a formal speech to a king, and it comes across more like an amusing parody of epic romance. Merry either fails utterly in his supposed task, or never took his task seriously in the first place. As in the beginning of the chapter, though, Gimli punctures the pretense of formality. Why does Tolkien deliberately undermine or even mock formality at the beginning and end of this chapter, even though in many other chapters of Book III such formality is taken quite seriously? Is Tolkien making light of his own mock-archaic prose and dialogue, which was especially prevalent in this Book when the hobbits were absent? Why? Why now?

Other than failing to be alert and attentive and neat, is there anything else the hobbits did wrong in this encounter? Or maybe not wrong, exactly, since they did nothing to offend, but is there anything else they did or failed to do that caused them to be treated as something other than full-fledged warriors? After all, Gimli is almost as short as they are, yet no one questions his value in a fight. Of course, when Gimli first met the Rohirrim he almost got himself killed. Would the hobbits have won more respect if they had been more fierce? Should they have said something about their daring escape from the orcs and taken more credit for rousing the ents? Should Merry have held his tongue about pipeweed? Why didn’t they do so?

One of the great advantages and disadvantages of a hobbit is the likelihood of being underestimated by foe and friend alike. What do you think Theoden thought of hobbits after this encounter? What about Aragorn, who knew them better, but nevertheless will refuse to take Merry with him to the Paths of the Dead? Have Merry and Pippin’s friends underestimated them? What if Merry and Pippin had been alert and attentive and had put the food and drink and pipeweed away? Would that have changed how they were treated down the road?

There is a true mystery hidden in this encounter which will not be cleared up until the Scouring -- where did Saruman get pipeweed? But the dire implications of this find do not yet hit home. Why does Tolkien hide the import of this find? Why does he say anything about it at all? What is the point of a hint no one is likely to understand until after the story is over? The story is, of course, full of such hints. What is the point?

By my count Aragorn has two lines in this chapter, one offering to care for Gimli’s head wound, and the other asking Gandalf about the fumes above Isengard. Why does Aragorn play such a small role in this chapter?


(This post was edited by Curious on Feb 27 2011, 1:33pm)

Subject User Time
LotR, Book III Discussion: The Road to Isengard Curious Send a private message to Curious Feb 27 2011, 1:25pm
    Ok here we have this forest....please keep axes stowed away in the upper compartment or under your seats..... PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Feb 27 2011, 7:39pm
        That was quick! Curious Send a private message to Curious Feb 27 2011, 8:27pm
            be hasty! PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Feb 28 2011, 12:21pm
        I think Tolkien Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 3 2011, 3:30pm
        More thoughts about your thoughts. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 3 2011, 10:17pm
            thoughts on thoughts PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Mar 4 2011, 3:54pm
        Why would the Hornburg be ruled out as a rendezvous? Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 4 2011, 6:49pm
    Good idea Hamfast Gamgee Send a private message to Hamfast Gamgee Feb 27 2011, 11:41pm
    A visit to the bad neighbor CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 28 2011, 1:20am
        You could raise some question of your own, Curious Send a private message to Curious Feb 28 2011, 1:00pm
            Ents neglecting hobbits CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Feb 28 2011, 1:27pm
                Excellent question! Curious Send a private message to Curious Feb 28 2011, 3:29pm
                    You must be *this tall* to enter Isengard PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Mar 2 2011, 1:34am
                        A few responses sador Send a private message to sador Mar 2 2011, 8:08am
                            oh darn PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Mar 2 2011, 5:02pm
        Good point about the staff. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 5 2011, 6:08am
            The staff is important FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 5 2011, 12:26pm
                we need a Bible scholar a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 5 2011, 3:11pm
                    I've refered to this once sador Send a private message to sador Mar 5 2011, 8:39pm
        I agree about Gandalf's staff. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 6 2011, 9:26pm
            Weather and floods and magic CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 7 2011, 3:47pm
        Let's see, where did I leave off? Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 8 2011, 8:08pm
            Orcs as sadists CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 9 2011, 5:57pm
                You were right the first time. FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 9 2011, 6:06pm
                Ugluk said so. sador Send a private message to sador Mar 9 2011, 6:11pm
                    He said so twice, actually squire Send a private message to squire Mar 9 2011, 8:12pm
                        I have also understood so. // sador Send a private message to sador Mar 10 2011, 7:10am
        Okay, I guess a distinction Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 9 2011, 9:27pm
            Rivendell not a credible choice for a refuge / stronghold Felagund Send a private message to Felagund Mar 9 2011, 10:04pm
                My best rationalization/explanation Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 9 2011, 10:41pm
    woe as in malediction; and about those orcs... a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Feb 28 2011, 4:21am
        Well, if "woe" means the Ring, Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 9 2011, 11:01pm
            no, not "the Ring", but "something like" a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 9 2011, 11:53pm
                Wright or worng? squire Send a private message to squire Mar 10 2011, 1:40am
                Yes, Tolkien didn't take the easy path. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2011, 6:12am
                    I will think about this a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2011, 12:59pm
                        Aragorn does parlay with the orcs at Helm's Deep. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2011, 1:24pm
                            do you mean in theology, or in ME? a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2011, 2:46pm
                                As I understand it, mortal sin cannot be forgiven after death. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2011, 3:15pm
                                    possibly true, but I thought we were talking about a.s. Send a private message to a.s. Mar 10 2011, 10:18pm
                                        It does make things complicated. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2011, 10:39pm
    Some random answers FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 28 2011, 3:33pm
        Cheddar Gorge Kimi Send a private message to Kimi Feb 28 2011, 11:16pm
        Gimli does seem more down to earth, Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2011, 4:25pm
    1. Some thoughts and answers to Questions A-Y. squire Send a private message to squire Feb 28 2011, 8:55pm
        A score FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Feb 28 2011, 9:38pm
        Thanks for adding your own questions! Curious Send a private message to Curious Feb 28 2011, 10:16pm
        Regarding your extra thoughts sador Send a private message to sador Mar 2 2011, 10:01am
            There's bacon FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 2 2011, 10:23am
        I finally have the opportunity Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 10 2011, 10:00pm
    Orc survivors from Helm's Deep Felagund Send a private message to Felagund Feb 28 2011, 9:49pm
        I did not know that.// Curious Send a private message to Curious Feb 28 2011, 10:17pm
        Not Helm's Deep - they escaped from the Battles of the Fords of Isen squire Send a private message to squire Mar 1 2011, 7:48pm
            Helm's Deep still the best source for the Drúwaith Iaur 'remnant' Felagund Send a private message to Felagund Mar 2 2011, 10:49pm
                Imprisonment not exile. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Mar 2 2011, 11:17pm
                    Well spotted! Felagund Send a private message to Felagund Mar 3 2011, 12:15am
    2. Some thoughts and answers to Questions Z-ZZ. squire Send a private message to squire Mar 1 2011, 12:17am
        The need for a red shirt character Elizabeth Send a private message to Elizabeth Mar 1 2011, 5:25am
            It's early days yet! Hamfast Gamgee Send a private message to Hamfast Gamgee Mar 4 2011, 10:49am
        Regarding your extra thoughts - part 2 sador Send a private message to sador Mar 2 2011, 11:17am
        Okay, back to your answers. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 13 2011, 7:10pm
    3. Some thoughts and answers to Questions AAA-ZZZ. squire Send a private message to squire Mar 1 2011, 12:56pm
        Great observations CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 1 2011, 1:50pm
        Regarding your extra thoughts - part 3 sador Send a private message to sador Mar 2 2011, 12:00pm
    Well Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 1 2011, 3:54pm
        You crack me up! Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 1 2011, 4:17pm
        All right, I have to get back to work, Aunt Dora Baggins Send a private message to Aunt Dora Baggins Mar 1 2011, 5:38pm
        Well (Part Deux) Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Mar 1 2011, 7:07pm
        “Two legs bad, root system good.” CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Mar 1 2011, 8:46pm
            "Ho ho ho! The sheepers do not play at their craft." sador Send a private message to sador Mar 2 2011, 2:12pm
    Comments on the chapter's summary sador Send a private message to sador Mar 1 2011, 5:47pm
        post-battle burial mounds / markers Felagund Send a private message to Felagund Mar 3 2011, 12:13am
            creepy places PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Mar 3 2011, 6:29pm
                Snowmane was buried, not burned // FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 3 2011, 8:06pm
    4. Some thoughts and answers to Questions AAAA-YYYY. squire Send a private message to squire Mar 2 2011, 8:46pm
        Regarding your extra thoughts - part 4 sador Send a private message to sador Mar 3 2011, 10:34am
            How the Ents and Nazgul are alike squire Send a private message to squire Mar 6 2011, 7:35pm
    Gandalf Hamfast Gamgee Send a private message to Hamfast Gamgee Mar 3 2011, 12:30am
    5. Some thoughts and answers to Questions ZZZZ-YYYYY. squire Send a private message to squire Mar 3 2011, 6:47am
        Those paved roads... FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 3 2011, 11:23am
        Regarding your extra thoughts - part 5 sador Send a private message to sador Mar 6 2011, 9:43am
            cutting in PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Mar 6 2011, 12:15pm
                If I may be so bold as to disagree sador Send a private message to sador Mar 6 2011, 1:50pm
                    re: PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Mar 7 2011, 8:59am
    6. Some thoughts and answers to Questions ZZZZZ-OOOOOO. squire Send a private message to squire Mar 4 2011, 11:55am
        You are welcome. Curious Send a private message to Curious Mar 4 2011, 1:42pm
        Your three last thoughts sador Send a private message to sador Mar 6 2011, 10:36am
        On the "collision" FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Mar 8 2011, 10:11am
    Answers - part I sador Send a private message to sador Mar 6 2011, 3:55pm
    Of Orcs and Gimli... batik Send a private message to batik Mar 7 2011, 4:15am
    Answers - part II sador Send a private message to sador Mar 7 2011, 10:14am
        Rhovanion ancestors and the burning of prisoners Felagund Send a private message to Felagund Mar 9 2011, 9:42pm
            I have forgotten that. Thank you! sador Send a private message to sador Mar 10 2011, 7:16am

 
 
 

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