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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
**CoH Discussion** V. Túrin in Doriath 4: Orc-work


Jul 11 2007, 2:54am

Views: 438
**CoH Discussion** V. Túrin in Doriath 4: Orc-work Can't Post

Túrin sets off next morning for the marches, but Saeros ambushes him.

Q1. Túrin had come to Menegroth needing smithwork on his arms; did he have time to get that done?

In the discussion of Chapter 1, squire suggested that "Give with a free hand, but give only your own" might be a proverb. Mablung's thought
    "Malice that wakes in the morning is the mirth of Morgoth ere night"
is clearly marked as one, set off in quotation marks.

Q2. Have there been any other proverbs in CoH so far? Some of the sayings in LotR have modern equivalents; does this one?

Lacking the full story, Mablung applies the proverb to Túrin, but the reader knows it better fits Saeros.

Q3. Does it fit Túrin at all?

Q4. Do the stripping and nude chase have sexual overtones? Or is this just pure unadulterated violence?

Saeros's calls for help attract a crowd of followers, and Mablung shouts after Túrin to stop:
    "This is Orc-work in the woods!"
In CoH, Túrin's retort is:
    "Orc-work there was; this is only Orc-play."
which differs from the Unfinished Tales version:
    "Orc-work in the woods for Orc-words in the hall!"

Q5. Is this a case where Christopher Tolkien, studying the drafts, came to a new conclusion as to his father's final intent? (see Appendix p. 285: "In this book I have reconsidered the original manuscripts and reconstituted the text, in many (usually very minor) places restoring the original words, introducing sentences or brief passages that should not have been omitted, correcting a few errors, and making different choices among the original readings.") Compare the two variations.

According to this site, white-tailed deer can jump over 30 feet. Wikipedia gives the human long jump record as 8.95 m (= 29+ feet). So I'm assuming the leap Saeros attempts is somewhere in that neighborhood.

Q6. Saeros must be exhausted by this point -- or don't Elves tire? Why does he try such a long leap?

Here's a Ted Nasmith rendition of the scene:

Q7. Comments?

Túrin's reaction to Saeros's death is cold:
    "Now he has laid a guilt on me undeserved."
    "I did not will it, but I do not mourn it."

Q8. Does Saeros have any redeeming characteristics? Is the reader meant to feel any sympathy for him?

Q9. Are the two brief mentions of Mandos too cryptic?

Q10. Thoughts on Túrin's decision to turn fugitive?

We'll go further into the question of his guilt or innocence in the next thread.

To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying,
The wind is blowing, and the white foam is flying.

Subject User Time
**CoH Discussion** V. Túrin in Doriath 4: Orc-work Wynnie Send a private message to Wynnie Jul 11 2007, 2:54am
    Turin as the square peg Ataahua Send a private message to Ataahua Jul 11 2007, 5:18am
    Poetic injustice. N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Jul 11 2007, 6:15am
    Pure violence Eledhwen Send a private message to Eledhwen Jul 11 2007, 7:11am
    Sayings drogo Send a private message to drogo Jul 11 2007, 10:43am
    Pure sex - almost squire Send a private message to squire Jul 12 2007, 3:36am
        Tolkien's "buttocks". N.E. Brigand Send a private message to N.E. Brigand Jul 12 2007, 5:29am
            getting to the bottom of it all Modtheow Send a private message to Modtheow Jul 13 2007, 3:15am
                Well Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Jul 13 2007, 2:17pm
            "Run, Forrest, run!" / Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Jul 13 2007, 1:32pm
    comments Saelind Send a private message to Saelind Jul 24 2007, 4:20am
    Orc-play vs. Orc-words Wynnie Send a private message to Wynnie Jul 30 2007, 1:34am


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