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It's time for some BS!
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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 9 2007, 8:46am

Post #1 of 42 (229 views)
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It's time for some BS! Can't Post

Book Spoilers are such great expositions for us of the history of Middle-earth and how unprepared the hobbits are for their adventure... for a moment of Tolkien-zen.

From In the House of Tom Bombadil: The Fellowship of the Ring


..."They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills. Sheep were bleating in flocks. Green walls and white walls rose. There were fortresses on the heights. Kings of little kingdoms fought together, and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords. There was victory and defeat; and towers fells, fortresses were burned, and flames went up into the sky. Gold was piled on the biers of dead kings and queens; and mounds covered them, and the stone doors were shut; and the grass grew over all. Sheep walked for a while biting the grass, but soon the hills were empty again. A shadow came out of dark places far away, and the bones were stirred in the mounds. Barrow-wights walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers, and gold chains in the wind. Stone rings grinned out of the ground like broken teeth in the moonlight.
... The hobbits shuddered. Even in the Shire the rumour of the Barrow-wights of the Barrow-downs beyond the Forest had been heard. But it was not a tale that any hobbit liked to listen to, even by a comfortable fireside far away. These four now suddenly remembered what the joy of this house had driven from their minds: the house of Tom Bombadil nestled under the very shoulder of those dreaded hills. They lost the thread of his tale and shifted uneasily, looking aside at one another.

... When they caught his words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory and beyond their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas flowed straight to the western shore; and still on and back Tom went singing out into ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake."


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 9 2007, 12:00pm

Post #2 of 42 (107 views)
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Creepy... [In reply to] Can't Post

I hate to think of the Barrow-wights being spirits of evil that inhabit the bones of the dead kings and queens; what a dishonor to those long gone, regardless of how much they fought amongst themselves!

These mounds are so different from the ones near Edoras. Those are kept in reverence, and covered in white flowers. But here, not even animals will graze, and so few people - the Dunadan, the Elves, and Bombadil - even remember those who were buried here; and they do not willingly walk among them.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago."
(Avatar pic: The Calanais stones, Isle of Lewis)

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


Morwen
Rohan


Jul 9 2007, 1:09pm

Post #3 of 42 (110 views)
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I wonder why Bombadil chose these stories to share with the hobbits. [In reply to] Can't Post

Was he warning them? Or was this a way of sharing the history of the wider world that his guests had become involved in? Or did he just love telling scary stories?

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If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore,
Thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 9 2007, 2:01pm

Post #4 of 42 (105 views)
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Exactly! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's always been my belief that the hobbits were directed to Bombadil to prepare them for the rest of the Quest. He armed them with so much information about the "outside" that they were referring to what he'd said several times during the rest of their adventures. PLUS I think Bombadil "appears" in whatever form he wants to deal with every situation. Is he the same Bombadil that Gandalf or Farmer Maggot hang with? I think Bombadil was exactly who the hobbits needed to see (comical, mysterious, enchanting, unaffected by the Ring) to arm them... especially Frodo. The rain fell long enough for him to complete their training ;)


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 9 2007, 2:03pm

Post #5 of 42 (109 views)
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Do you think the flowers [In reply to] Can't Post

represent the peace and purity of the mounds in Rohan? I find it interesting that there are these two references to evil dwelling within Bombadil's realm (so to speak) and that he must have an understanding with them. "You don't mess around, and I'll leave you alone. You mess up, and I'll sing your socks off!"


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


FantasyFan
Rohan


Jul 9 2007, 2:16pm

Post #6 of 42 (115 views)
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The flowers in Rohan are 'evermind' [In reply to] Can't Post

Their forefathers are remembered fondly and with honor, and rest in peace. In the barrow mounds, the dead are forgotten by all save Bombadil. Is it that when we forget our history, all that is left is the pettyness of death, and evil can thus enter in?


"That is one thing that Men call 'hope.' Amdir we call it, 'looking up.' But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is 'trust.' It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and First Being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End. Of all His designs the issue must be for His children's joy."
Finrod, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, HoME X Morgoth's Ring



grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 9 2007, 4:05pm

Post #7 of 42 (108 views)
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Wouldn't it be amazing [In reply to] Can't Post

if a simple white flower could help turn away intruders? or invaders?

If we remember them, they're still alive and with us.


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 9 2007, 7:50pm

Post #8 of 42 (105 views)
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The "honored dead" [In reply to] Can't Post

It doesn't seem possible for anything evil to come into those mounds in Rohan; in fact, by their very placement, they are constantly remembered and honored, and the evermind is a physical representation of this.

But it's so barren, in many ways, on the Downs. Maybe that's why Bombadil lives on the edge of them: he's keeping his eye on the evil there, to make sure it doesn't get out of hand!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago."
(Avatar pic: The Calanais stones, Isle of Lewis)

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


Darkstone
Immortal


Jul 9 2007, 8:20pm

Post #9 of 42 (100 views)
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Hmmmm...... [In reply to] Can't Post

But it's so barren, in many ways, on the Downs. Maybe that's why Bombadil lives on the edge of them: he's keeping his eye on the evil there, to make sure it doesn't get out of hand!

Or the other way around.

Three meals for the Elven-kings high on the sky flet,
Three for the Dwarf-lords meat ripe off the bone
Three for Mortal Men doomed to diet,
Seven for the Halflings of Hobbiton!
In the Land of the Shire where the Taters fry.
Seven meals to rule them all, seven meals to find them,
Seven meals to bring them all and at the Party bind them
In the Land of the Shire where the Taters fry.


FantasyFan
Rohan


Jul 9 2007, 9:28pm

Post #10 of 42 (98 views)
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Yes, but [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's more that the flowers are symbolic of what can turn away intruders: loving memory.

And the second statement, it reminds me of my favorite quote from any of the Harry Potter stories, "Do you think the dead we love ever leave us?" It's a comforting thought to me.


"That is one thing that Men call 'hope.' Amdir we call it, 'looking up.' But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is 'trust.' It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and First Being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End. Of all His designs the issue must be for His children's joy."
Finrod, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, HoME X Morgoth's Ring



FantasyFan
Rohan


Jul 9 2007, 9:30pm

Post #11 of 42 (97 views)
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More than likely [In reply to] Can't Post

Part of his job (self-appointed), I imagine, is to watch over the barrow wights, and one particularly murderous tree, as well as the hobbits.


"That is one thing that Men call 'hope.' Amdir we call it, 'looking up.' But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is 'trust.' It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and First Being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End. Of all His designs the issue must be for His children's joy."
Finrod, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, HoME X Morgoth's Ring



dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 9 2007, 11:03pm

Post #12 of 42 (93 views)
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It all depends [In reply to] Can't Post

on whether or not you like Bombadil...

Laugh!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago."
(Avatar pic: The Calanais stones, Isle of Lewis)

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


silneldor
Half-elven


Jul 10 2007, 1:00am

Post #13 of 42 (104 views)
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I really like your quote. [In reply to] Can't Post

Another ray of light from Tolkien:).

"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez



daffobombadils crash Lorien




grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 10 2007, 1:31am

Post #14 of 42 (111 views)
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Have you seen [In reply to] Can't Post

the movie An Unfinished Life with Robert Redford, Morgan Freeman and Jennifer Lopez? The end of the film touches on that theme, and it gets me every time.

The life-long friends are sitting and talking about life and death in a very touching way that's unique to their characters.

(I may be off a word or two)

Freeman [Mitch]: Would you bury me next to Griff? (Redford's son)
Redford (Ainur]: Don't you think you'd better die first?
F: It's gonna happen, you know.
R: Of course. It's where my family lies.

R: Do you think the dead forgive us our sins?
F: Yes. I think it's even easy for them.


Conversations like that gives me the warm feeling that those we've lost are still with us... which I've always believed.


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 10 2007, 1:32am

Post #15 of 42 (92 views)
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You guys just gave me goosebumps! [In reply to] Can't Post

I like Bombadil :) I'm gonna be just like him when I become immortal.


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 10 2007, 1:34am

Post #16 of 42 (85 views)
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Balance-keeper? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


FantasyFan
Rohan


Jul 10 2007, 2:05am

Post #17 of 42 (89 views)
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A sparkling gem indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks! Smile It is there to remind me of hope: difficult sometimes for me to keep a grasp on, and one of the themes fromTolkien's works that I am most grateful for.


"That is one thing that Men call 'hope.' Amdir we call it, 'looking up.' But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is 'trust.' It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and First Being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End. Of all His designs the issue must be for His children's joy."
Finrod, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, HoME X Morgoth's Ring



grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 10 2007, 8:38am

Post #18 of 42 (87 views)
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TIME - July 10 pt.1 [In reply to] Can't Post

This is kinda long... so I'll complete it tomorrow :)


Today in Middle-earth.


July 10, 3018 (S.R. 1418) pt.1
(from the appendices)
1. Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc
..."'Late one evening I came to the gate, like a great arch in the wall of rock; and it was strongly guarded. But the keepers of the gate were on the watch for me and told me that Saruman awaited me. I rode under the arch, and the gate closed silently behind me, and suddenly I was afraid, though I knew no reason for it. But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.' '"So you have come, Gandalf,' he said to me gravely..."
...'"Yes, I have come," I said. "I have come for your aid, Saruman the White." And that title seemed to anger him.
...'"Have you indeed, Gandalf the Grey!" he scoffed. "For aid? It has seldom been heard of that Gandalf the Grey sought for aid, one so cunning and so wise, wandering about the lands, and concerning himself in every business, whether it belongs to him or not..."
...'"...here you will stay, Gandalf the Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman, the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!" 'I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not so, but were woven of all colours, and if he moved they shimmered and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered.
...'"I liked white better,' I said.
...'"White!" he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."
...'"In which case it is no longer white," said I... '

...'...He came and laid his long hand on my arm... he whispered. "... I have many eyes in my service, and I believe that you know where this precious thing now lies. Is it not so? Or why do the Nine ask for the Shire, and what is your business there?" As he said this a lust which he could not conceal shone suddenly in his eyes.
...'"Saruman," I said, standing away from him, "only one hand at a time can wield the One, and you know that well, so do not trouble to say we! But I would not give it, nay, I would not give even news of it to you, now that I learn your mind. You were head of the Council, but you have unmasked yourself at last. Well, the choices are, it seems, to submit to Sauron, or to yourself. I will take neither. Have you others to offer?"
...'He was cold now and perilous. "Yes," he said. "I did not expect you to show wisdom, even in your own behalf; but I gave you the chance of aiding me willingly, and so saving yourself much trouble and pain. The third choice is to stay here, until the end."
...'"Until what end?" ...'"Until you reveal to me where the One may be found...""


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 10 2007, 8:51am

Post #19 of 42 (79 views)
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Agreed :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 10 2007, 11:42am

Post #20 of 42 (82 views)
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*imagines gramma dancing around in oversized boots with a feathered cap* [In reply to] Can't Post

*while speaking in rhymes*

Definitely! Laugh You'd protect all the critters who wander in the Forest, and set those unfriendly trees and ghosts to rights!

...Ho! grammabombadil, grammabombadillo!
...By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow,
...By fire, sun and moon, harken now and hear us!
...Come, grammabombadil, for our need is near us!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago."
(Avatar pic: The Calanais stones, Isle of Lewis)

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 10 2007, 11:50am

Post #21 of 42 (81 views)
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Saruman couldn't be more deceitful and devious [In reply to] Can't Post

if he'd been wearing a black cape and hat, and fingering a long, thin mustache! He was once able to disguise his desires, but he is so obvious now. He threw away his title of "the White", and all that the Valar charged him with, the moment he - well, changed his colors, so to speak. That "lust in his eyes" - Christopher Lee did that perfectly, he was frightening!

"Follow your heart", Gandalf - it knew you were walking into a trap, even when your mind was still trusting Saruman.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago."
(Avatar pic: The Calanais stones, Isle of Lewis)

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


Morwen
Rohan


Jul 10 2007, 1:01pm

Post #22 of 42 (82 views)
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That's a wonderful movie. [In reply to] Can't Post

Like The Lovely Bones, it's a story about a family coming to terms with the death of a loved one. I love that moment at the end. The "Don't you think you'd better die first?" line fits Redford's character perfectly.

I never made the connection with Tolkien and flowers on the burial mounds, but it fits perfectly.

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If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore,
Thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 10 2007, 2:13pm

Post #23 of 42 (81 views)
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Bwahaha!!! That's so BAD [In reply to] Can't Post

that is MUST be rewarded!!!

You crack me right up!


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jul 10 2007, 2:19pm

Post #24 of 42 (83 views)
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That's loyalty for ya! [In reply to] Can't Post

Even when alarms are going off, you still trust and believe. I guess that's the price for being completely loyal... you never doubt. They did play that subtly in the films re: not being totally comfortable in his heart... as they had him hanging onto his staff even when he was sipping wine where you see him setting it aside everywhere else he goes.

Yeah... Lee was deliciously corrupt!


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


Cirdan the Shipwright
Registered User

Jul 10 2007, 6:46pm

Post #25 of 42 (80 views)
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I have that passage [In reply to] Can't Post

on the bulletin board in my office and look at it often. My family all know I want it read over my ashes, along with that poem of Bilbo's (the road goes ever and ever on...)

The passage reminds me very much of a sermon my Martin Luther King, Jr., in which he talked of the difference between hope and optimism. Optimism (amdir), he said, is a belief in progress; a belief that one's circumstances will get better. Hope (estel) is independent from one's circumstances - it is the conviction that there is another Kingdom, and it has existed in splendor and glory for all eternity, and it is doing wonderfully well right now, and it will prvevail.

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