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sphdle1
Gondor
Feb 1 2011, 5:00pm
Post #126 of 246
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Can use weird or queer and still maintain a good imagination
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I know they are more judgmental, but I'm just throwing my free opinion out there...forcing to use a more proper or preferred word can cause you to lose or limit your imagination.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Feb 1 2011, 5:09pm
Post #127 of 246
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It appears to serve their purposes to chose to not understand
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where this article comes from. It seems to serve some need to deride and degrade GdT's work both generally and on the Hobbit project.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Feb 1 2011, 5:11pm
Post #128 of 246
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Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Feb 1 2011, 5:27pm
Post #130 of 246
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Conjecture passed off as fact: //
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Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Hellmistress
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 5:33pm
Post #131 of 246
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... Thorin's name begins with 'Th' - the runic 'thorn' sound, common in Nordic and Anglo Saxon futharks. it is associated with the hawthorn, a symbol of protection. It is also, ironically, considering our discussions here, a rune of challenge to those who seek to make change or go against an outmoded tradition.
HM
(Thorin's helmet is a clear experiment - GDT even said himself that he added thorns just because his name is Thorin. That's an expierment to me.) and the 'Thorns' comment is it shows a complete misunderstanding of Tolkien and his use of language. To my knowledge, Thorin is a Norse name, related to Thor, rather than anything to do with thorns. I'm no language expert and will happily stand corrected if that is wrong! One wonders whether we might have seen Legolas with a leg on his shield......  As has been pointed out, this was a couple of years ago, and maybe working with so many Tolkien fans on the film would have set him straight, as it were!
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Pittsmen
Rivendell
Feb 1 2011, 5:36pm
Post #132 of 246
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It's making me sick.
It's one thing to have opinions, its another to tear down an man who committed years of his life to this movie. I have heard so many disrespectful things said in this thread, I shutter at the thought that PJ or GDT would read this thread.
I have not been a member of TORN for very long, I want to say 4 or so years, I have never seen such disrespect and closed mindedness from the posters.
Lock it and throw away the key.
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Feb 1 2011, 6:32pm)
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nobofthepony
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 5:40pm
Post #133 of 246
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You obviously aren't listening if you think those are anyone's arguments. Tolkien created an instantly recognizable world. There is some room for interpretation, but it isn't a GDT Fruedian dreamscape. This is the first attempt to do a big budget version of the Hobbit and we want a serious attempt to recreate Middle Earth, not the vanity project of an eccentric genius.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Feb 1 2011, 5:43pm
Post #134 of 246
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Thanks.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Altaira
Superuser
Feb 1 2011, 5:47pm
Post #135 of 246
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---> From the Home Page: A note about the New Yorker magazine article
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The pop-culture world has been reacting to the excellent magazine article in The New Yorker about Guillermo del Toro and especially about his designs on 'The Hobbit.'
Here is a reminder to be media savvy. The material for that article was taken from interviews when all circumstances surrounding the film were different and when Mr. del Toro was still the director. Since then, after many delays, he was forced to move on with his career and life and get back to the long list of projects that were put on hold for "The Hobbit".
The article was intended to be a profile on the unique genius of the director who has done things his unique way for the whole of his career; it was not intended to be a definitive account of what "The Hobbit" would look like or will look like now. TORn's senior staff can tell you how deeply sorry the director was to leave the film and how much a fan of the production he remains.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Hellmistress
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 5:47pm
Post #136 of 246
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... is something Guillermo's version would never have been. Not one of his films has anything to do with vanity. Every film ever made has the mark of its director unless he/she is a studio puppet, so complaining that G would have made the film his way is a little like saying that water is wet, don't you think? Eccentric genius, though ... I like that. Suits him well, although 'geeky fan-boy' is more like it. Yet again, I must reiterate that Guillermo has always said that his version of TH would be respectful towards the trilogy already in place, and he has always been a man of his word.
HM
You obviously aren't listening if you think those are anyone's arguments. Tolkien created an instantly recognizable world. There is some room for interpretation, but it isn't a GDT Fruedian dreamscape. This is the first attempt to do a big budget version of the Hobbit and we want a serious attempt to recreate Middle Earth, not the vanity project of an eccentric genius.
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sphdle1
Gondor
Feb 1 2011, 5:49pm
Post #137 of 246
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You are entitled to your free and open opinion on this (of which I agree with) ... many may not agree with it, but they are free to object and have a differing opinion. It seems like some people have to find common ground, while others are open to just disagreeing and having a difference of opinion. I applaud you standing by yours.
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Bran
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 5:58pm
Post #138 of 246
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The only reference I could find kept relating the name to Thor, and to thunder. I could find no reference to Thorn at all. I'll take your word for it.
Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi
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sphdle1
Gondor
Feb 1 2011, 6:19pm
Post #139 of 246
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There are many directors I would have been OK with for TH
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James Cameron would have been been great IMHO, just as one example, and I've said this long before GDT was at the helm. But I've never truly liked GDT involved in creature design for The Hobbit. I will admit there was a point in time that I became more comfortable with the idea, forgot some of his past creatures, and had faith that PJ and other would reign him in on the stuff I knew I would not like, but more recently after having watched Hellboy, Blade and looking at his designs from Pan's Labyrinth, I've breathed somewhat of a sigh of relief knowing that PJ and his designers are at the helm for these particular 2 movies. Don't get me wrong, I think GDT is very talented, and with the exception of a few creatures here and there, I did enjoy those movies of his...I think he is a much better story teller, writer & director than he is a creature designer, though not all his creatures are bad in my opinion. Some of his creatures were actually really good in those movies, and the some of the ones I didn't like as much, at least didn't take away from the story he was telling, and were passable or in some cases almost passable for those particular movies.
But in my opinion, most would not be near passable for me in TH movies, especially after reading the article from this thread, it just reaffirmed my fears of having him involved in creature design for these new movies. I would be perfectly fine with him directing it though, if he stayed away from the design department.
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Altaira
Superuser
Feb 1 2011, 6:22pm
Post #140 of 246
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This thread is in danger of being locked
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The Admins have had to start editing side-bickering and mean-spirited comments out of this thread.
Please remember that the comments in the article are old, and much has happened since then. It's fine to make assumptions, and even jump to conclusions, if that's what one wants to do, but it's also fine for others to disagree. All further comments should be done respectfully both to Guillermo and to each other. Otherwise, the conversation is over.
Thanks
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Bran
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 6:25pm
Post #141 of 246
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That I know GDT's work is not in the Canon. What I said is that it is fine with me if it is.
Please don't put words in my mouth, and please, also, don't make assumptions about what I can, or cannot bear.
Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi
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macfalk
Valinor
Feb 1 2011, 6:25pm
Post #142 of 246
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Thorin has n-o-t-h-i-n-g to do with thorns
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Tolkien borrowed the name Thorin from the Voluspa, as he did with other dwarves like Durin. Check it up - GDT is way wrong by connecting Thorin with "thorns".
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 1 2011, 6:26pm
Post #143 of 246
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to varying degrees. Let's not judge a person because of their point of view, but discuss the point of view instead.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Bran
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 6:29pm
Post #144 of 246
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Tolkien borrowed the name Thorin from the Voluspa, as he did with other dwarves like Durin. Check it up - GDT is way wrong by connecting Thorin with "thorns".
I found the same, with Thorin being reference to the God Thor, thunder, with an alternate meaning of 'bold' or 'courageous'.
The only cross reference to Hawthorn I could find was on a page selling chemicals based on Thorium.
I found the Voluspa, too, but then the pages recovered were in some Scandinavian language!
Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi
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macfalk
Valinor
Feb 1 2011, 6:32pm
Post #145 of 246
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Yes, Tolkien borrowed his most important characters from there
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Gandalf (Staff-elf), Thorin, Dvalin, Durin etc etc
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
(This post was edited by macfalk on Feb 1 2011, 6:33pm)
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Altaira
Superuser
Feb 1 2011, 6:35pm
Post #146 of 246
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Does no one here have a sense of humor?
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And, is GDT not allowed to have one either? I'll be dollars to donuts he was joking when he said that. It's almost too good to resist that play on words, even for me.
General comment (not directed to macfalk): Lordy, I can't remember a thread where people took so many things out of context, jumped to so many wild conclusions and were so unwilling to give one iota of a benefit of a doubt, especially considering how much water has gone under the bridge since those comments were made. This truly isn't something to get so upset over, and certainly not to resort to mean-spirited, personal comments about GDT and/or each other.
Some true colors are coming out in this thread and not all of the colors are attractive ones. 
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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Flagg
Tol Eressea
Feb 1 2011, 6:37pm
Post #147 of 246
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I've been re-reading the article and examining the description of Smaug. The reporter writes that 'Del Toro wanted to be creative with the wing placement'. Guillermo goes on to say that he dislikes four-legged dragons with wings sprouting out of their backs, and that he also dislikes four-legged dragons with wings attached to their forelegs. It appears that he did not choose to make Smaug an example of either variety. The only possibility this really leaves is that the wings were, in fact, attached to Smaug's hind legs. Think about that for a moment. A serpentine, worm-like dragon with small, expressive foreclaws, whose body terminates in a vast pair of rear wings. It's as if the entire beast is tapered, growing larger and larger as you go further along his back... and, when viewed from above, he happens to resemble an axe; a tool of bloodshed and death. Why are people ridiculing this idea? I see nothing anti-Tolkien or 'sacrilegious' about it. Remember, Tolkien was entirely in favour of the serpentine design, and the smaller, more slender, more emotionally-expressive foreclaws would help to bring Smaug's sly and manipulative aspect to the forefront of his interactions with Bilbo. With the added eeriness and intimidation of Smaug's hidden eyes (think Alien; the creature was especially frightening because you could never tell if it was looking at you or not), the masterstroke of giving the dragon reflective scales that change colour depending on his environment... I have to say, this sounds like an all-round great design to me.
As for Thorin's helmet: people, are you really getting annoyed about this? Seriously? It's just a helmet! There's nothing whatsoever 'weird' or 'sacrilegious' about an antlered helm. There are plenty of horned helmets in films – haven't you all seen helmets with bull's horns, or helmets with ram's horns? This is the same idea, except it's a more unique, distinctive and perhaps more regal interpretation. It's not as if Guillermo was thinking of giving Thorin himself horns, you know! I don't see why so much ridicule is being directed towards the 'thorn' detail – the similarity between 'Thorin' and 'thorn' is probably the thing that provided the seed for Guillermo's idea, but it's ridiculous to claim that he's adding thorns to the helmet 'because 'thorn' sort of sounds like 'Thorin'' – of course he isn't.
Some of you are getting far too carried away over Guillermo's troll idea. It's not as if he's taking a leaf out of Transformers's book – there is no need to leap to outlandish conclusions about transforming cyber-trolls. In all likelihood, these trolls simply wore suits of armour with round parts, structured in such a way that the trolls could curl up and roll at enemies. It's not a very far-fetched idea – from a tactical point of view, it seems like a perfectly logical use of the trolls' muscle and weight, and there's nothing about it which seems physically or technically impossible. I doubt that Tolkien is turning over in his grave because of this.
I really wish that certain members here would stop mocking Guillermo's ideas by rattling off ridiculously exaggerated caricatures of his ideas. I am not questioning that worth of opposing points of view, but I honestly believe that some of the negative attitudes expressed here come from a desire for comfort. People want to believe that Guillermo was a bad choice for The Hobbit, because that makes our current sad predicament seem much better. The way I see it, Guillermo's departure was a tragedy. I could probably make myself much happier and more satisfied with the current state of these films if I found a way to convince myself that Guillermo's work is not so great. It would be like going from 'this is a terrible loss' to 'whew, we really dodged a bullet there'. Fortunately (or unfortunately) I am one of those who appreciates his work too deeply for such conceits. The temptation to switch sides is there, but I simply cannot bring myself to believe that Guillermo's version of The Hobbit would have been anything less than a masterpiece, and I'm all the sadder for it.
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BlueMan
Rivendell
Feb 1 2011, 6:37pm
Post #148 of 246
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It seems to me that a lot of comments on here are quite aggressive and unnecessarily fearful. I was very glad to read the article and hope that they will eventually release the designs of the pre-PJ-era in an "art of" book and/or feature it in the making of documentaries, so that we will be able to look at them and judge in how far they might have influenced the final designs in the movies.
It is impossible to say anything about the quality of the designs, leave alone the potential movies that GDT might have made, based only on some rough descriptions of early designs that are still to go through a long process of reworking. In fact, the aggressive comments here are a good example why artists are hesitant to show unfinished work: The judgement is bound to be hurtful and in most cases not productive.
I had hoped for a friendly discussion of the interesting tidbits in the article when I logged in today and am shocked by the aggressive tone of so many posts. What's the point? There is no enemy and no battle to be fought here.
Raptos a diis homines dici ...
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 1 2011, 6:38pm
Post #149 of 246
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And yet antler motifs likely would have appealed to Tolkien
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though others around here are in a better position to support or refute this idea (and I await their reliable input *cough* NEB, Geordie, Squire, and others of RR fame).
If memory serves, in The Hobbit, a Hart (stag deer) appears in Mirkwood, a mirror of Arthurian hunting scenes (incidentally, in which some knights likely adorned their helmets with antlers with pride). Further on the Arthurian Romances point, as in Mirkwood, a white hart presaged a quest or some sort of change in fortune (similar to HM's thorn runes).
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Altaira
Superuser
Feb 1 2011, 6:39pm
Post #150 of 246
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Well said. Thank-you, Flagg //
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Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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