|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
macfalk
Valinor
Feb 1 2011, 2:44pm
Post #101 of 246
(8520 views)
Shortcut
|
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
|
|
|
nobofthepony
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 2:45pm
Post #102 of 246
(8554 views)
Shortcut
|
Yes, Tolkien's mythological races were imaginary...but they were described in such detail that they have a reality to them. Tolkien is not Hans Christian Anderson or Roald Dahl. He is THE fantasy writer but it's because he isn't often carried away by fanciful whimsy (except for Bombadil....grrrr). Every step that is taken in Middle Earth is taken in a real world with real trees...not drawn trees. Real skies, not impressionalistic paintings in the sky. A real place with a real history. Every one of Tolkien creations is an viable carbon-based lifeform that came about by the same (guided ;)) evolutionary process that brought about humans and the rest of the world around us today. Tolkien's world is based in a Christian incarnational philosophical framework. Matter matters because it is created as a work of art by Eru, and it brings about something glorious that first existed in nthe mind of Eru. It isn't a Fruedian fairyland where we face our dreams. The reason I believe that GDT didn't understand the source material is because GDT seems to think all fantasy is a Fruedian dreamscape. And I LOVE that about GDT. That's his perspective. I can't wait to see the Mountains of Madness because I think he fits that story PERFECTLY. So understand I am not badmouthing GDT...I am a fan of his and enjoy most of what he does. I just knew he would have to be harnessed quite a bit in Middle Earth to "keep it real."
|
|
|
Hellmistress
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 2:48pm
Post #103 of 246
(8561 views)
Shortcut
|
say 'horrible'. Others did. A mess was mentioned. It was, honest.
Every design element in any film is experimental. Movies wouldn't be made otherwise. If every design of Frankenstein's Creature looked like the Karloff version, I think we'd be a bit miffed, don't you? Experimental art is essential when designing for film, theatre, TV ... you name it. You can be as off the wall as you like, and maybe you'll go along that road, maybe not. That is what design is all about. And you seem to associate free thinking in design with craziness - it doesn't really work like that. Having seen the initial doodles for a number of designs in G's films and others, and then seen those ideas evolve, change, grow bits here and there and other bits get lopped off, or just end up in the trash can to be replaced by something completely different, I can appreciate the seemingly odd experimental stuff that these intial ideas actually are. The rich gamut of designs for Abe Sapien in HELLBOY have to be seen to be believed, and he is nothing like he was first envisioned. That's half the fun. And that is what this article is about ... the free-form stuff that is the germ, the seed that grows or dies. For wild accusations that these ideas are 'horrible' to be made, is at best a knee-jerk reaction and at worst really rather uncalled-for.
I love experimenting. That is how we got LotR in the first place. And now we have TH. And ATMOM. And FRANKENSTEIN. Done by different experimenters, but experiments they are, every one of them. Thank goodness.
HM
Constructive critique is in the eye of the beholder - and I never said "horrible". In fact I think I would have enjoyed his designs if it was meant for another movie. I'm all for surreal creatures and design but this is The Hobbit (1937, JRR Tolkien). What was described does not exactly blend with PJ's or Tolkien's Middle-Earth, or John Howe's/Alan Lee's for that matter - it looked like as sphdle1 said, "GDT-world". I stand by my opinion that this is not the movie to start an experiment on (Thorin's helmet is a clear experiment - GDT even said himself that he added thorns just because his name is Thorin. That's an expierment to me.)
It's just that what was toldin this article has red flags all over the place, and they are not just what you said, "old doodlings". Like the design of Smaug.... it's recent and Weta clashed with that didnt they.
|
|
|
macfalk
Valinor
Feb 1 2011, 2:51pm
Post #104 of 246
(8550 views)
Shortcut
|
Just to clarify as Dr.Death pointed out I don't think it's a good idea to categorize us who are not so impressed by this article as conservative or "haters" (I know you didn't say that word). I think it's unfair since you are a bit biased since you know him and is likely to defend him to the last gasp - that we "naysayers" are "afraid of thinking outside the box"
GDT is still credited for the script with PJ & co and I would love if they won the Oscar together for adapted screenplay.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
|
|
|
nobofthepony
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 2:52pm
Post #105 of 246
(8540 views)
Shortcut
|
|
PJ wasn't "original", he hired Tolkien artists to design..//
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
|
|
|
Hellmistress
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 2:54pm
Post #106 of 246
(8569 views)
Shortcut
|
... is certainly a fair point. I still think that given the benefit of the doubt, he would have turned in some astonishing yet respectful work, and that in tandem with others his work on TH would have been fabulous. His ideas in THE DEVIL'S BACKBONE are grounded in reality, and it is indeed one of his best films. Yet he still managed to give an 'edge' to the look of the film, and I think that would have added to the Tolkien experience, not detracted. But you've made some interesting points.
Oh, and I agree about Bombadil - that's the one part of the book I skip over. Drives me crazy.
HM
Yes, Tolkien's mythological races were imaginary...but they were described in such detail that they have a reality to them. Tolkien is not Hans Christian Anderson or Roald Dahl. He is THE fantasy writer but it's because he isn't often carried away by fanciful whimsy (except for Bombadil....grrrr). Every step that is taken in Middle Earth is taken in a real world with real trees...not drawn trees. Real skies, not impressionalistic paintings in the sky. A real place with a real history. Every one of Tolkien creations is an viable carbon-based lifeform that came about by the same (guided ;)) evolutionary process that brought about humans and the rest of the world around us today. Tolkien's world is based in a Christian incarnational philosophical framework. Matter matters because it is created as a work of art by Eru, and it brings about something glorious that first existed in nthe mind of Eru. It isn't a Fruedian fairyland where we face our dreams. The reason I believe that GDT didn't understand the source material is because GDT seems to think all fantasy is a Fruedian dreamscape. And I LOVE that about GDT. That's his perspective. I can't wait to see the Mountains of Madness because I think he fits that story PERFECTLY. So understand I am not badmouthing GDT...I am a fan of his and enjoy most of what he does. I just knew he would have to be harnessed quite a bit in Middle Earth to "keep it real."
(This post was edited by Hellmistress on Feb 1 2011, 2:55pm)
|
|
|
Hellmistress
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 2:59pm
Post #107 of 246
(8505 views)
Shortcut
|
... make myself clear - I have no problem with nay-sayers. I fully appreciate G isn't to everyone's taste, and that's perfectly okay with me. I have no doubt at all that my views on Terry Gilliam disturb and irritate G. But to call his work a 'mess' when that work hasn't even been seen? Well, it brings out the rottweiler in me. Rowff. And I still regret that we may not see his vision on screen.
HM
Just to clarify as Dr.Death pointed out I don't think it's a good idea to categorize us who are not so impressed by this article as conservative or "haters" (I know you didn't say that word). I think it's unfair since you are a bit biased since you know him and is likely to defend him to the last gasp - that we "naysayers" are "afraid of thinking outside the box"
GDT is still credited for the script with PJ & co and I would love if they won the Oscar together for adapted screenplay.
|
|
|
nobofthepony
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 3:06pm
Post #108 of 246
(8536 views)
Shortcut
|
while reading the article, everything he brought out about the Hobbit I didn't like...yet EVERYTHING he said about The Mountains Of Madness...I was like "WHY do I have to wait YEARS to see this???" He's a genius, but not even geniuses can be expected to fit EVERY assignment perfectly. Hopefully, out of respect to GDT, PJ will retain some of his designs, but I think he will change any designs that don't fit Middle Earth.
|
|
|
Eruonen
Half-elven
Feb 1 2011, 3:09pm
Post #109 of 246
(8537 views)
Shortcut
|
|
There seem to be divisions in how JRRT's works impact us as
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
both the reader and viewer. For many of us, reading the books was a "literary" (and more) life changing event. We were absorbed into that world...felt it, saw it, breathed it etc. and of course all of us have individual perceptions of that world most seem to agree that the artists and PJ captured most of the look and feel that we shared as our internal scenery etc. To offer something visually very different from the common world we have seen would be "jarring" to say the least. As a stand alone film with no connection to anything else it might work...but we know The Hobbit is part of the bigger story. Cartoon animation versions have been made that were revolting in some of the designs...the Elves in particular....so avoiding that kind of awful interpretation is key...especially for a studio footing the bill.
The Smaug idea....I am sure they can make it work effectively. Taking JRRT's design and making it more powerful and scary is the key. A long whipping tail is part of his power.
|
|
|
entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 1 2011, 3:09pm
Post #110 of 246
(8545 views)
Shortcut
|
have experience with the process of collaborative design, but I have, although not in an artistic design sense.
When you work with a group of talented, smart, confident people, the collaboration process is intense, exhilarating, sometimes frustrating, and always productive. It's important to have an open mind and respect ALL contributions, even when they are outrageous.
Guillermo was walking into a situation where he was the new guy. The team had been enormously successful with the LOTR movies, and it's conceivable they were all set to repeat their designs in The Hobbit movies. I would not be at all surprised to learn that Guillermo's ideas were intended to challenge the team to think in new directions and were intended to energize the design process instead of being final designs.
Design is very organic, and it often happens that the initial ideas do not survive the collaboration, or at least only portions remain. Working with others requires patience and a willingness to consider all input. Guillermo's sketches might not appeal to everyone, but I have no doubt they contributed to the final designs of The Hobbit, and caused the final product to be better than we could imagine.
|
|
|
Bran
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 3:13pm
Post #111 of 246
(8520 views)
Shortcut
|
It's not a case of spliting into GDT v PJ camps, but splittig into anyone vs Tolkien camps.
Personally, I was very happy with PJ's interpretation of Middle Earth and it's creatures and characters. If the film fits what one reads in the books by and large, I'm happy.
IF GDT had done similar, I would have been happy, if PJ had done differently, I would have been upset.
I don't care who does it, I want it done RIGHT.
To date, PJ has done that for me.
Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi
(This post was edited by Bran on Feb 1 2011, 3:18pm)
|
|
|
Hellmistress
Lorien
Feb 1 2011, 3:22pm
Post #113 of 246
(8509 views)
Shortcut
|
... and the only thing I would comment on is that PJ may change any designs that don't fit HIS vision of Middle Earth - which he is entitled to do so, it is, after all, his film. I would hope, though, that we do see at least some of G's Smaug. I'm very much of the wyrm-faction here, and I am always brought back to Tolkien's own design for the dragon, and I think G's ideas will be a shoe-in for the design. I hope. 
HM
while reading the article, everything he brought out about the Hobbit I didn't like...yet EVERYTHING he said about The Mountains Of Madness...I was like "WHY do I have to wait YEARS to see this???" He's a genius, but not even geniuses can be expected to fit EVERY assignment perfectly. Hopefully, out of respect to GDT, PJ will retain some of his designs, but I think he will change any designs that don't fit Middle Earth.
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Feb 1 2011, 3:44pm
Post #114 of 246
(8491 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Another term is "imaginative".
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But for those who have lost or limited their imaginations, derogatory words like queer and weird will have to serve. Personally I prefer "interesting" or "fascinating" (that can function as non-judgmental comments).
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
|
|
|
silneldor
Half-elven
Feb 1 2011, 3:48pm
Post #115 of 246
(8488 views)
Shortcut
|
|
All you will-be dragon speculators are nuts i tell ya!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
THIS should be our
terrrrible Smaug
''Sam put his ragged orc-cloak under his master's head, and covered them both with the grey robe of Lorien; and as he did so his thoughts went out to that fair land, and to the Elves, and he hoped that the cloth woven by their hands might have some virtue to keep them hidden beyond all hope in this wilderness of fear...But their luck held, and for the rest of that day they met no living or moving thing; and when night fell they vanished into the darkess of Mordor.'' - - -rotk, chapter III
May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!
In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Feb 1 2011, 3:51pm
Post #116 of 246
(8491 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I am betting you are dead wrong.//
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
|
|
|
SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 1 2011, 3:58pm
Post #117 of 246
(8489 views)
Shortcut
|
that the relatively small part of the article where they discuss his initial ideas for TH happened over two years ago, right?
On a side note, the article was likely intended to be a before and after TH piece, a witness to a bit of cinema history. If so, the idea had to be reworked for obvious reasons.
|
|
|
dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 1 2011, 4:02pm
Post #118 of 246
(8450 views)
Shortcut
|
|
No, that's what they're going to use
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
as bait to get Smaug to come out of the cave - he's either going to fry it to a crisp, or fall in love with it! 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
|
|
|
Muireadhaigh
Rivendell
Feb 1 2011, 4:03pm
Post #119 of 246
(8512 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Smaug design sounds ok, but a metal plated troll who turns into a ball?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
That sounds like one of the bots from Star Wars - Clone Wars, and not very original.
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Feb 1 2011, 4:07pm
Post #120 of 246
(8471 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Judging GdT's entire involvement in the Hobbit by a single article is just wrong.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Secondarily, to what extent was the article guided by the objectives, values & desires of the writer. G does not take pages out of his notebooks. If the writer looked at the notebooks he would have seen the design process and nothing final. I do not believe GdT would show any final designs. In fact I am sure he is under constraints to not do that, Nor do I think that he would.
Finally as to slavish and boring adaptions. I am certain Peter Jackson would agree completely with that. After look at the Lord of the Rings movies and Lovely Bones even more so.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
|
|
|
Hanzkaz
Rohan
Feb 1 2011, 4:12pm
Post #121 of 246
(8474 views)
Shortcut
|
I was a bit disappointed when GDT left the Hobbit project, but I have to admit I'm a bit uneasy at his ideas for the Hobbit movies (especially after his comment about marrying a widow 'You try to be respectful of the memory of the dead husband, but come Saturday night . . . bam.'. )
I like PJ's version of Middle-Earth. I can recognise it as the Middle-Earth I've read about and seen artwork for all these years.
I like GDT's films but I don't really want characters from the Hellboy universe wandering around Mirkwood (I wonder what Gimli would think about Thorin's 'thorns') - at least not in the Hobbit.
|
|
|
Crunchable Birdses
Rohan
Feb 1 2011, 4:35pm
Post #122 of 246
(8503 views)
Shortcut
|
Looks like now we know the real reason GDT "departed" the project. Roll-up trolls? THORN-rin? I guess at the end of the day Warners didn't really want "The Lord of the Rings: Hellboy Edition" and I can't say I blame them.
* crunch *
|
|
|
SirDennisC
Half-elven
Feb 1 2011, 4:41pm
Post #123 of 246
(8467 views)
Shortcut
|
Yes, that part of the article was a bit dodgey. He was speaking about seasons and movements. At four (each) per film there would be eight units (each). The point I believe he was trying to make was that he did not want to establish 4 units (four seasons) in TH I and then repeat them in TH II, rather that each unit across the diptych would have a distinct feel.
It is not much of a stretch really. Is a cold dry winter the same season as mild wet winter? Inhuit culture is known to have over 20 words for "snow" depending on its quality, when and where it fell. That is not to say they have over 20 descriptive words for snow but that they identify over 20 distinct states of matter, all of which most other cultures describe only as snow. It makes sense that cultures closer to the natural world might identify more than 4 seasons...
Oh and welcome to TORn. Thank you for your thoughtful post!
|
|
|
sphdle1
Gondor
Feb 1 2011, 4:48pm
Post #124 of 246
(8468 views)
Shortcut
|
Even if I am partially right and there was more to GDT's leaving than just the delays, I would cash in.
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Feb 1 2011, 4:51pm
Post #125 of 246
(8467 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Do you have friends that work at high levels for Warner Bros.?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
If not how do you come by these facts?
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
|
|
|
|
|
