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oh
Registered User
Jan 15 2011, 3:29pm
Post #1 of 73
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What would Tolkien have done differently?
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Imagine if Tolkien was still alive today and witnessed The Lord of the Rings being adapted in the film trilogy by Peter Jackson, do you think he would have agreed with the choices made by him in order to translate the story to the big screen? Besides how the story was told, also think about the characterization of the characters, the overall spirit and tone etc.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 15 2011, 5:50pm
Post #3 of 73
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He'd have never sold the rights.
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Though I do like to think he would have loved hearing his beloved languages spoken on screen.
And I like to think Jackson could have talked him into a cameo. Say, as Old Noakes, or maybe the Gondorian Archivist.
******************************************
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man pierced with many black-feathered arrows, must be in want of a funeral."
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jan 15 2011, 7:17pm
Post #4 of 73
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in another forum, I suggested some fans would not be happy unless Tolkien himself wrote and directed the movies. I wonder if our new friend is from there...
Welcome to TORn oh,
Your question is quite a tall order. Is this just a passing curiosity or are you doing research? The heart of the question is an analysis of the treatment of a story across different media. I agree with Magpie, it sounds like homework.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jan 15 2011, 10:11pm
Post #5 of 73
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Tolkien actually read an early script for a movie that was going to be made in his lifetime, and it's really interesting to read what he thought of it. He's very harsh but for good reasons. He also showed that he understood that there were going to be many changes, but there were so many things in the script he read that were just plain "silly" and didn't fit with his world at all.
It's pretty much the closest we'll ever get to a Lord of the Rings movie review by Tolkien. We can only assume and make guesses (some educated ones) about what he would think about PJ's version.
(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Jan 15 2011, 10:11pm)
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lurtz2010
Rohan
Jan 16 2011, 1:17am
Post #6 of 73
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I like to hope he would've realised how boring he made Faramir so he would've changed his character and had him take the hobbits to Osgiliath.
Also Helms Deep pretty much just came out of nowhere in the books so maybe he could've added a little suspense to the journey from Edoras by maybe writing in a warg attack and possibly having Aragorn fall off a cliff to up the tension.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jan 16 2011, 10:59am
Post #7 of 73
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And Tolkien would have loved...
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XenArwen (why have only one action heroine when you can have two?).
And he'd have been geekily thrilled at the idea of Annatar at the Black Gate. Who knows where his enthusiam might have led, if he'd been given a free hand in making the movie?
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jan 16 2011, 11:10am
Post #8 of 73
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Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jan 16 2011, 11:34am
Post #9 of 73
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J.R.R.Tolkien would have disliked anything that deviated unnecessarily from his story.
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Here is a short list.
The character trashing of Faramir and Denathor.(including the flaming high dive.)
The Elves at Helms Deep.
Arwen is dying.
The sending off of Samwise at Cirith Ungol.
The absence of Tom Bombadill, The Barrow Downs & The Scouring of the Shire.
Line swapping between characters.
And so on.
It is his story and he would have every right to dislike what was done with it.
He would not have sold the rights if he had not needed the money at the time.
His son carries on that tradition.
You will not see any of Tolkien's writings made available for movies any time in the foreseeable future.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 16 2011, 1:04pm
Post #10 of 73
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From his Foreword to the second edition:
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"The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, minor and major, but being fortunately under no obligation either to review the book or to write it again, he will pass over these in silence..."
I like to think that, had Tolkien somehow been allowed to have a hand in the movies, he might have taken that opportunity to request that some of these "defects", whatever they were, be "corrected" in the film version.
We may have found that the author himself was not a "purist"! 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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The Party Tree
Lorien
Jan 16 2011, 5:09pm
Post #11 of 73
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One scene comes to mind in particular.
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And that's the absence of Gollum's almost-redemption scene on the stairs to Cirith Ungol. It was so tragic and important in his eyes, and I don't think he would have approved of them moving it around and diluting the irony that was so piercing in the original scene.
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jan 16 2011, 6:10pm
Post #12 of 73
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He would have rewritten and rewritten his stories until he died without publishing them. Lucky for us this fate only befell the Silmarillion. Proposing that a hypothetical Tolkien would give his blessing to The Hobbit movie project and take the opportunity to correct his ways is a convenient way of letting everyone off the hook. (Everything is good. Tolkien would have done this himself.) To examine how this might work lets look at his son and literary executor, who also performed the role of administrative assistant/secretary for a good part of his father's life. I believe Christopher is in deed acting as his father would have him act. I do not see him involved in the reconstruction of The Hobbit.
Of course this is only my opinion though it has some support by history.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Jan 16 2011, 6:24pm
Post #13 of 73
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as the movie editor
the movie may never have been released 
..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.
..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar
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Magpie
Immortal
Jan 16 2011, 7:05pm
Post #14 of 73
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Howard Shore:
HS: I think the stamina part came in because of the need for the perfection and the need to create it as good as you could. There were many times when we would create something, Peter and I... and we would look at it and we knew we could do it better so we would try to do it better.
Interviewer: Really?
HS: Oh yes. Peter says the movie is finished only when they take it away. The movie’s never finished. There’s just a point when they take it away, meaning that there has to be an end. You know, the studio says, “It must stop now. You know, you must stop working on this.” And that’s the way we all feel. There is that sort of delivery date, that goal, that moment when they say, “It must stop.” But you work so full on, and so completely dedicated to it to create it... because you also know you’re not going there... you know, you are creating this moment, say, of the Destruction of the Ring or describing the world of Lothlórien that people have read about for 50 years. And you want to make sure that your imagery of those worlds is as true and as real and as well crafted as you could possibly do it.
If Tolkien had been the movie editor, there would have been a point at which they would just 'take it away.'
LOTR soundtrack website
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
(This post was edited by Magpie on Jan 16 2011, 7:06pm)
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Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Jan 16 2011, 7:13pm
Post #15 of 73
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that's an interesting interview quote, thanks 
..The land of long-forgotten name:
......no man may ever anchor near;
..No steering star his hope may aim,
......for nether Night its marches drear,
..And waters wide no sail may tame,
......with shores encircled dark and sheer.
..O! Haven where my heart would be!
......the waves beat upon thy bar
..For ever echo endlessly,
......when longing leads thy thought afar
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jan 16 2011, 7:30pm
Post #16 of 73
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samples of Tolkien's commentary on Zimmerman's script
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These are some things Tolkien said about Zimmerman's script that could
apply to Peter Jackson's adaption in some ways:
Here I may say that I fail to see why the time-scheme should be
deliberately contracted... Time must be left vaguer in a picture than
in a book; but I cannot see why definite time-statements, contrary to
the book and to probability, should be made...
A scene of gloom lit by a small fire, with the Wraiths slowly
approaching as dark shadows -- until the moment when Frodo puts on the
Ring, and the King steps forward revealed -- would seem to me far more
impressive than yet one more scene of screams and rather meaningless
slashings...
I do earnestly hope that in the assignment of actual speeches to the characters they will be represented as I have presented them: in style and sentiment. I should resent perversion of the characters even more than the spoiling of the plot and scenery.
Zimmerman has cut out the ending of the book, including Saruman's proper death. In that case I can see no good reason for making him die... If Zimmerman wants Saruman tidied up, Gandalf should say something to this effect: as Saruman collapses under excommunication: "Since you will not come out and aid us, here in Orthanc you shall stay till you rot, Saruman. Let the Ents look to it!"
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Magpie
Immortal
Jan 16 2011, 7:39pm
Post #17 of 73
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he... like Tolkien tends toward obsessive perfectionism. I feel a kinship with them. :-)
Another quote from that interview is where he talks about his friends becoming a little concerned with him because of the level of his obsession with Tolkien. He has good humor about it, though.
LOTR soundtrack website
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Jan 17 2011, 12:07am
Post #18 of 73
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Proposing that a hypothetical Tolkien would give his blessing to The Hobbit movie project and take the opportunity to correct his ways is a convenient way of letting everyone off the hook.
My dear sir, why in the world are you going off on a Hobbit tangent, and one which I did not imply? I'm referring strictly to LotR, and Tolkien's impressions of that work, and spinning on the notion of "book purist" in that regard. (It was meant as a bit of a joke.)
Now, it is true enough, that he would have been continually revising LotR, had he not had a publisher waiting!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jan 17 2011, 1:13am
Post #19 of 73
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Sorry I forgot where I was at (Victim of CRS). So proposing that a hypothetical Tolkien would give his blessing to The Lord of the Rings movie project and take the opportunity to correct his ways is a convenient way of letting everyone off the hook.
It applies to both movie projects but it is a bit to late to bring the Professor back from the grave to approve (or not) what PJ and Company did with the big book and have it change anything.
I understand that you were going for a humorous bent on what you said but you rubbed against an old pet peeve. In discussions when people make claims that someone would have behaved in just such a way if they were still alive. They can give overwhelming supporting evidence and yet we can not know if it is true for the obvious reason.
Tolkien did not have to worry about purity. He was a master of ambiguity, which is great for causing scholars headaches.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 17 2011, 3:45am
Post #20 of 73
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You are here!
Explanation (and apology) accepted - I catch your drift, now. No, there is no way we can know what Tolkien would have done - which is why speculation runs rampant! 
I have wondered what he felt those "major" problems were, though...and I suppose we'll never know.  Perhaps it's just as well.
A "master of ambiguity"! I like that term. So much was left to the imagination of the reader - but I believe that's one of the things that makes his books so appealing, and helps one "get into" them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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moreorless
Gondor
Jan 17 2011, 7:41am
Post #21 of 73
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Disagreed with some details but liked the overal tone I'd guess..
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Been awhile since I read them but the impression I got from his reactions to previous adaptations or atempted adaptations was that he didnt feel they had a serious enough tone, "sillyfication" I believe he called it. Jacksons films largely avoided that and set as serious a tone as possible while for the most part avoiding the "romantic farie" of the victorian era Tolkien was reacting agenst.
If he'd have had some influence on the script I think there are a few obvious areas he'd change, less "cool" moments during battle scenes, more adult humour for Gimli, a more favourable protrayal of Denethor etc but I think he'd have been somewhat more willing to accept change than many fans and scholars are. He was obviously highly protective of the books themselves but from what I remember he didnt seem to be of the mind that any change in adaptation to another media was sacrilege. Unlike those fans and scolars afterall he did expereince LOTR change a great deal in the writting and IMHO probabley had a better idea of basic story telling mechanics than many of them. I don't think he'd have been pleased with a "tolkiens greatest hits" apprach to adaptation that Bakshi took where by many scenes are faithfully adapted but the overal story doesnt come across well.
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Jan 17 2011, 10:41am
Post #22 of 73
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It's a little more complicated than that
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"Now, it is true enough, that he would have been continually revising LotR, had he not had a publisher waiting! "
I see what you're saying, but for the benefit of those who may not know, Tolkien had 'finished' LotR, in 1949. 'It is off my mind', he wrote. Though, as you imply, he never really 'finished' it; when a revision was called for in 1965 (according to Carpenter, IIRC) he had to restrain himself from writing whole sections of the book!
As for having a publisher waiting - yes and no. Unwin had asked for 'another book about hobbits' in 1937, and the matter more or less rested there, as far as Allen & Unwin were concerned, for many years. Then there was the problem that Tolkien wanted Silm. published at the same time, which drove him away from A&U towards Collins for a while. But I don't think there was any question of a publisher 'waiting' in the sense that anyone had imposed a deadline. (though I'm pretty sure you may not have meant it like that).
On a slightly different topic - earlier, Kangi says that of Tolkien's fictional writings the only one which Tolkien's perfectionism robbed us of is Silm. And that's true. On the other hand, JRR used to drive his employers nuts when it came to his academic works! I think Kenneth Sisam (a big noise at the Oxford University Press; also sometime tutor of Tolkien, and opponent in the election to the Chair of Anglo-Saxon) once wrote of 'that rogue Tolkien' - a pretty damning statement in those circles - because of JRR's procrastinations in producing what would probably have been _the_ standard edition of Chaucer's works; the 'Clarendon Chaucer'. Tolkien kept him waiting for _decades_, and that work is still unpublished to this day.
Same goes for his follow-up to his paper 'Ancrenne Wisse and Hali Maethad', published in 1929. Shippey calls this 'the most perfect of Tolkien's academic writings'. In the end, JRR simply produced an edition of the work in 1962, without any notes. A big disappointment for those fans of his works who'd waited a little over thirty years!
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jan 17 2011, 11:14am
Post #23 of 73
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...proposing that a hypothetical Tolkien would give his blessing to The Lord of the Rings movie project and take the opportunity to correct his ways is a convenient way of letting everyone off the hook. If we can't know what Tolkien might have thought about anything that's happening now, why is anyone even on a hook?
As I see it, every time a tale is told, it will always be a bit different - and, indeed, to be meaningful and memorable, it should be a bit different. It doesn't really matter what the original teller of the tale thinks or thought. The story isn't his any longer - it's passed on, as Gandalf tells Bilbo regarding the Ring.
I can imagine the endlessly-creative and imaginative JRRT, given the opportunity to work with other storytellers in making movies of his work, coming up with things that many of his fans would now find outlandish - it's at least as likely as that he'd have sniffed dismissively at every change, assuming as I'm doing that he had input and control, and wasn't just being asked to approve some hack-work. (His son's reaction doesn't seem relevant to me - he's a very different character, the epitome of filial piety it's true, but much more into painstaking detail-work than possessing the exuberant creativity of his father.)
Of course I was joking about the specific things I mentioned in my post. But there was a serious point behind it. We don't know, can't know and shouldn't be hung up on what the Professor might have thought. I hope he'd have had the wisdom to see that every teller of a tale must be allowed to tell it in his own way. The only criterion is honesty - the teller must be attempting to get at the "truth" of the story he's telling. If he's just pandering to what he thinks his audience wants to hear, then he'll have failed as a storyteller. He'll just be an entertainer and his work will be forgotten as soon as his audience moves on and wants to hear something different...
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Jan 17 2011, 11:59am
Post #24 of 73
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Why tell or re-tell Tolkien's tale why not your own?
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But the Professor did it so well can't I just treasure his telling.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Jan 17 2011, 4:09pm
Post #25 of 73
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