|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Airaloske
The Shire
Nov 23 2010, 11:26pm
Post #1 of 9
(1138 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"The Mirror of Galadriel" Part 3
|
Can't Post
|
|
Today's Reading
From " That night the Company slept upon the ground..." until "...and fell glittering in the sun."
This short scene features a discussion among the Fellowship about Galadriel's tests and the motives behind them. Boromir makes accusatory remarks towards Galadriel and Aragorn utterly rebukes him.
What's Interesting
- Galadriel offered Merry and Sam very similar things. Merry very obviously didn't want to divulge the whole contents of his particular temptation to the whole group, and it appears that Sam is hiding something as well (when someone stops short of what they were going to say, pauses, and then finishes the sentence it is usually a sign that they came close to saying something they'd rather keep secret). We can probably guess what (who) Sam was thinking of, though I'm sure a little garden of his own would give him only slightly less delight than some face time with the lady he fancies. It is Merry's secret desire that is harder to guess. Is he thinking of a pretty, hairy-toed hobbit lass of his own or are his desires a bit grander than that?
- Boromir brings up a good point: was Galadriel offering something that she didn't have the power to give? I believe that Boromir is correct in this, because if the members of the Fellowship had turned aside from their future of "a shadow full of fear" war would still have eventually found them and robbed them of their deepest desires anyway. Galadriel couldn't promise anyone exactly what they wanted; Sauron would have complicated things eventually.
- This chapter is not where Boromir begins to "crack". If you'll please remember, Boromir isn't on this quest to see Frodo safely in and out of Mordor. Boromir is only traveling with the Fellowship until their path divides from his own. He's going to Minas Tirith. Aragorn has known this whole time that Boromir doesn't support the idea of the Ring being destroyed. He already knows that Boromir wants to take the Ring to Gondor, this isn't news to him. Aragorn's comment to Boromir about a man bringing evil into Lorien with him isn't a signal to the reader that Boromir is now not to be trusted: Boromir has performed admirably this whole time and continues his assistance until the very end, his mistake at Amon Hen notwithstanding. Boromir simply isn't thinking about the Elves as Elves; he is making the mistake of assuming that Elves operate the same way Men do.
Boromir
Boromir never liked to be under the command of somebody else. He had held the rank of "Captain of the White Tower" back in Minas Tirith, he was the favored son of the Steward, and the people of Gondor in general held him in high regard (not without reason. Boromir had shown courage and leadership in battle and had won the favor of his people). Boromir was a tough man, exceptionally tall and strong, and was used to people listening when he gave orders. It is little wonder that he did not get along with the rest of the Fellowship, though he pulled his weight and, often, other people's weight as well.
He was also arrogant, stubborn, and very vociferous about his point of view. His words in Lothlorien regarding Galadriel are most likely not something that surprised the rest of the fellowship (you must remember, these people had been traveling together for quite some time and Boromir had probably been saying rude things like this for the whole journey). However though he had some ignorant remarks to give about Lothlorien and Galadriel's motives behind her testing of them, he did not reveal what he had been tempted with. What part of his heart's desire did Boromir take such umbrage at that he decided to deny its existence altogether?
We have already discussed the fact that Boromir's opinion on the Ring's fate was not a secret among the Fellowship. Galadriel was most likely not tempting Boromir with access to the Ring, because if she had been he would not have been ashamed to admit it. We can probably rule out the idea of some romantic matter that he had left unfinished in Gondor; nothing was ever mentioned about Boromir's love life, and as the son of the Steward any marriage plans probably wouldn't have been left up to him anyway. We know already that Boromir did not like the fact that Aragorn was the heir to the throne of Gondor so we can't rule out the idea of Galadriel offering Boromir the kingship. In fact, when he said "We men of Minas Tirith are true to our word," I believe he was referring to the fact that the Stewards had given their word to honor the true heir to the crown, whenever he showed up to claim it.
Next Discussion
The next section is from "The remained some days in Lothlorien, so far as they could tell or remember," until "I can't bear to think of bringing the news to him"
Including:
- The relationship between Gimli and Legolas: why such a swift change?
- Legolas in his element.
- A lament for Gandalf.
|
|
|
PhantomS
Rohan
Nov 24 2010, 2:23am
Post #2 of 9
(996 views)
Shortcut
|
In fact, when he said "We men of Minas Tirith are true to our word," I believe he was referring to the fact that the Stewards had given their word to honor the true heir to the crown, whenever he showed up to claim it.
Denethor will later say that he is Steward of the House of Anarion and that Aragorn is a mere 'Ranger of the North'. Faramir also says that Men of Minas Tirith keep their word or die trying, so it seems to be a phrase meant to brag, rather than to actually describe Gondor's finest. Pelendur the first Ruling Steward didn't only reject the claim to Isildur's crown by Arvedui, he probed the ranks for a more local candidate and luckily found Earnil. The Stewards have ruled for centuries, this is more likely to be their justification for exercising all the powers of the kings, rather than an a hopeful promise. The ancient line of the kings and its prominence is the only thing stopping the Stewards from setting up a kingdom of their own, as Denethor tells Boromir earlier.
We have already discussed the fact that Boromir's opinion on the Ring's fate was not a secret among the Fellowship. Galadriel was most likely not tempting Boromir with access to the Ring, because if she had been he would not have been ashamed to admit it. We can probably rule out the idea of some romantic matter that he had left unfinished in Gondor; nothing was ever mentioned about Boromir's love life, and as the son of the Steward any marriage plans probably wouldn't have been left up to him anyway.
Boromir and Faramir's personal lives seem to be a mirror of Earnur of Gondor and Valacar the king of Gondor. Earnur loved to fight and ignored the ladies for the most part while as a prince Valacar married a Northern princess that raised eyebrows everywhere.
"More like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came"- Eomer, upon meeting Aragorn
Boromir would probably have chosen a bride for himself; his father didn't seem to, since he married a noble lady who hated living in MT- Faramir is said to be more like his father than Boromir by Gandalf. One would think that after Falastur and Beruthiel Gondor would have learned a thing or two about arranged marriage!
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 24 2010, 4:23am
Post #3 of 9
(1033 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Oh, Galadriel, that temptress in high heels and the revealing dress!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Boromir brings up a good point: was Galadriel offering something that she didn't have the power to give? I believe that Boromir is correct in this, because if the members of the Fellowship had turned aside from their future of "a shadow full of fear" war would still have eventually found them and robbed them of their deepest desires anyway. Galadriel couldn't promise anyone exactly what they wanted; Sauron would have complicated things eventually.
This chapter is not where Boromir begins to "crack". If you'll please remember, Boromir isn't on this quest to see Frodo safely in and out of Mordor. Boromir is only traveling with the Fellowship until their path divides from his own. He's going to Minas Tirith. Aragorn has known this whole time that Boromir doesn't support the idea of the Ring being destroyed. He already knows that Boromir wants to take the Ring to Gondor, this isn't news to him. Aragorn's comment to Boromir about a man bringing evil into Lorien with him isn't a signal to the reader that Boromir is now not to be trusted: Boromir has performed admirably this whole time and continues his assistance until the very end, his mistake at Amon Hen notwithstanding. Boromir simply isn't thinking about the Elves as Elves; he is making the mistake of assuming that Elves operate the same way Men do.
I'm going to sound like I'm picking on Miss G again, one of my very top favorite characters, but fair is fair. She did pretend to offer things she couldn't deliver, or we can glean that from what little we are told afterwards. Can she really give Sam a garden? Well, maybe if she gives him a bag of gold. With Boromir, she had to offer more than just a garden. One possibility is the rule of Gondor as King, and/or rule of Gondor with its boundaries from its zenith. And possibly throw in the Ring too. While she could have gotten the Ring off Frodo, she couldn't have done anything about Gondor's politics, and Gondor was in peril of being subjugated or wiped out, so any promise of glorious rule for Boromir wouldn't be fulfilled either.
She later says to Sam and Frodo in this chapter that she doesn't understand their use of the word "magic," especially since they use the same word for the deceits of the Enemy. Yet she is being deceitful here. Hmmmmm. How often does she pull this temptation routine on her guests? Why is she tempting them with false promises? Is she under the influence of the Ring? It must be trying to reach out to her when it senses Nenya. (But I could be totally wrong about that since it spends lots of time around Narya and seems to have no effect on Gandalf.) Nenya or not, the Ring would recognize her power and want to seduce her as a more valuable prize than a hairy-footed hobbit (the third hobbit it has ensnared, and all of them have been miserable failures as couriers to get it back to daddy). Certainly when Frodo offers her the Ring, she isn't caught off-guard, but instead readily admits she wants it, and has wanted it a long time. Is that why she avoids the company while they're in Lorien for so long--she's staying away from the Ring's presence because the temptation on her is so great? (Now who is going to play the temptation game in her mind?)
Or is Galadriel doing to the company what she knows the Ring would do to them anyway? They had no in-your-head temptation test by Elrond. Maybe he's not capable of this. She takes matters into her own hands, thinking that this whole quest is going to fail if the Ring corrupts them or some of them, and this readiness testing should have been done before they were entrusted with the quest. That absolves her of being deceitful and playing dirty tricks; the stress test is overdue.
Gandalf later says to Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas that Galadriel told him that Boromir was in peril. So I think he was cracking at this point. The power vacuum with Gandalf's loss probably aggravated the situation. They're weakened, they lost their leader, and he's wanted to use that ring all along as a weapon for good, which is the underdog, to conquer evil. Why wouldn't his mind already be slipping in the wrong direction?
It's interesting that though she tells this to Gandalf, she does and says nothing about it while the Fellowship is in her custody. No warnings to Frodo or Aragorn, no lectures to Boromir, no extreme measures like throwing Boromir in jail or separating him from the company so he travels home without the others. Nothing at all. Why is she allowing this very strong warrior who's "in peril" to remain in close proximity to the Ring-bearer? Or, just to be caddy about it, is it inaction like this that explains why she and Celeborn have spent centuries fighting a long defeat?
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
Nov 24 2010, 7:02am
Post #4 of 9
(980 views)
Shortcut
|
They were certainly all things that could reasonably come to pass. She did, in fact give Sam a garden. She couldn't promise Boromir the kingship, particularly with Aragorn standing there, but she could certainly help him envision being hailed in triumph as the savior of the City. Who knows, if he hadn't fallen, he might have been: he was certainly qualified.
I do not see any deceit or false promises, merely the presentation of possibilities that might be alluring.
Sign up now in the Reading Room to lead a chapter discussion of LotR Book II!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
|
|
|
PhantomS
Rohan
Nov 24 2010, 8:57am
Post #5 of 9
(1011 views)
Shortcut
|
"you would not have known your son."
With his men by his side and in his citadel of power, perhaps Boromir would have never repented. Gandalf is saying this in a 'what if' scenario with Boromir having the ring of course, but Boromir was already headed that way psychologically. We're lucky he runs out of patience at Amon Hen, and not when crossing Anorien where hsi horn can be heard.
In a sense he did get what he wanted- no one in Minas Tirith knows about the fall of Boromir and Faramir saw him in peace and with many swords at his feet. Boromir ended up a hero in his city, but a dead hero like his namesake.
|
|
|
Airaloske
The Shire
Nov 24 2010, 7:38pm
Post #6 of 9
(976 views)
Shortcut
|
Galadriel may be purely good, but I love the idea that you bring up of the Ring making an attempt to seduce her to its purposes. Kinda gives me the creeps.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
Nov 25 2010, 9:22am
Post #7 of 9
(1047 views)
Shortcut
|
It is Merry's secret desire that is harder to guess. Is he thinking of a pretty, hairy-toed hobbit lass of his own or are his desires a bit grander than that? It's fun to speculate isn't it? The Brandybuck family tree tells us he married Estella Bolger, but did he already have an "understanding" with her before the Quest? I suppose he, like Sam, was at the marrying age, and might have had a hobbit-lass waiting for him to come home. We don't hear of him marrying before the end of the story, as Sam does, but then Merry is an aristocrat and the arrangement of nuptials might have been more formal and sedate than for a gardener and a farmer's daughter.
Boromir brings up a good point: was Galadriel offering something that she didn't have the power to give? I think it's Boromir misinterpreting what Galadriel was doing. To him it did seem like temptation: "almost I should have said that she was tempting us, and offering what she pretended to have the power to give." But Sam calls it "asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance..." I think maybe what she was really doing was opening up each person's mind so that they could see and confront their own hidden thoughts and desires. She wasn't really "offering", she was just "asking".
Her power was to help them to see their own strengths and weaknesses, and to examine their own motivation. That was surely a good and helpful thing - if you're just doing something because you think you should, rather than really believing in it, you might as well figure that out early, otherwise you'll fail anyway. But Boromir refuses to listen, and is too proud to look beneath the surface of his own superficial motivation, which is that the "Men of Minas Tirith are true to their word."
Boromir simply isn't thinking about the Elves as Elves; he is making the mistake of assuming that Elves operate the same way Men do. Good point. It looks as if Boromir just isn't prepared to trust the Elves, or believe that their motivations can be any less self-serving than Men's tend to be.
Aragorn's comment to Boromir about a man bringing evil into Lorien with him isn't a signal to the reader that Boromir is now not to be trusted... Well, I think it's a signal that there is a danger there that Boromir refuses to admit to. Boromir does have a hidden selfish motivation that he refuses to work through with Galadriel, clinging instead to the idea that as a Man of Minas Tirith being "true to his word" will be enough. Aragorn knows, of course, that Boromir would like the Ring to go to Gondor, but that's not his decision - at this point, since Gandalf's fall, it's Frodo's. Boromir has no right to put pressure on Frodo, and obviously no right to steal the Ring from him.
Boromir has performed admirably this whole time... He's done a heck of a lot of grumbling and second-guessing of others' leadership. He lacks the one thing that you can't do without in Middle-earth - humility. (At least, he learns it very late, in his defence of Merry and Pippin.)
We have already discussed the fact that Boromir's opinion on the Ring's fate was not a secret among the Fellowship. Galadriel was most likely not tempting Boromir with access to the Ring, because if she had been he would not have been ashamed to admit it. Well there's a difference between wanting the Ring to be brought by the Ringbearer to Gondor, and wanting it for yourself (as critics of movie-Faramir never seem to notice  ). He would have been ashamed to admit that he might consider stealing the Ring for himself if the Ringbearer refused to do what he wanted.
We know already that Boromir did not like the fact that Aragorn was the heir to the throne of Gondor so we can't rule out the idea of Galadriel offering Boromir the kingship. That's an interesting idea. Faramir implies that Boromir might have been tempted by that:
"‘And this I remember of Boromir as a boy, when we together learned the tale of our sires and the history of our city, that always it displeased him that his father was not king. “How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not?” he asked. “Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty,” my father answered. “In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice.” Alas! poor Boromir. Does that not tell you something of him?’"
Frodo replies that Boromir was satisfied with Aragorn's claim to the throne and always treated him with honour, but Faramir points out that "the pinch had not yet come." Maybe Boromir got the first hint of that "pinch" when Galadriel looked into his heart.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
|
|
|
dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 26 2010, 2:18pm
Post #8 of 9
(952 views)
Shortcut
|
Good point about Boromir and his early feelings regarding the kingship!
If that is what Galadriel had opened his mind to see clearly - his own desire for the throne - then she was opening a "wound" that had been festering since his boyhood.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Dec 1 2010, 8:56am
Post #9 of 9
(949 views)
Shortcut
|
Sorry for the delay!
I'll just comment on some of your statements.
We can probably guess what (who) Sam was thinking of
We can guess, but I must point out that later in this chapter, when Sam completely loses control and says he must leave Frodo and go back - there is still no hint of Rosie; only of the Gaffer, and Bagshot Row. Rosie isn't mentioned until Mount Doom.
It is Merry's secret desire that is harder to guess. Is he thinking of a pretty, hairy-toed hobbit lass of his own or are his desires a bit grander than that?
I'm not sure of desire, but he might be feeling guilt for inducing Evil come to Buckland, and then leaving his father in the lurch. Remember Gandalf's report in the Council? And also that while Elrond judged that Pippin, at least, should return to the Shire - both Sam (this chapter) and Merry (in The Ride of the Rohirrim) only remember that it was him who needed to be sent back.
Boromir brings up a good point: was Galadriel offering something that she didn't have the power to give?
Why not? "Get the Ring for me, and I will make you king of Gondor". It could happen, you know.
Of course, this contradicts whatever Galadriel might have promised Aragorn - but you know, you can't keep everyone happy all the time...
Galadriel couldn't promise anyone exactly what they wanted; Sauron would have complicated things eventually.
O yes, he always spoils the fun.
If you'll please remember, Boromir isn't on this quest to see Frodo safely in and out of Mordor. Boromir is only traveling with the Fellowship until their path divides from his own. He's going to Minas Tirith.
So is Aragorn.
At least was, until Gandalf fell.
Aragorn has known this whole time that Boromir doesn't support the idea of the Ring being destroyed. He already knows that Boromir wants to take the Ring to Gondor, this isn't news to him.
Since when? Boromir accepted the wisdom of Gandalf and Elrond until now. He refused going to Moria - and was proved correct; and now he didn't want to go to Lorien - but does that mean he wanteds the Ring for himself all through the way? Even Sam thought that Boromir rebelled against Elrond's counsel only in Lorien, although he asserted that Boromir secretly wanted the Ring for himself before.
I'm sure Aragorn had no idea what Boromir really wanted, otherwise he wouldn't have left with Legolas to find the old porter's-way around Sarn Gebir. How stupid do you think he is?
Boromir simply isn't thinking about the Elves as Elves; he is making the mistake of assuming that Elves operate the same way Men do.
Right. He has made the bad mistake of reading The Silmarillion (in whatever form it was available in Gondor), and taking the High-Elves for a group who has their own agenda (or agendas' as they are badly fragmented).
He has also actually listened at the council, and noted that a part of their agenda (as expressed by Galdor) was to keep the Havens free from harm, so that the Elves retain an open way of escape.
He should have thought of Elves as Elves, as you say: magic ethereal beings, with only beauty and bliss and the good of all Middle-earth at their hearts.
Boromir never liked to be under the command of somebody else... Boromir was a tough man, exceptionally tall and strong, and was used to people listening when he gave orders.
Probably; although there is no way of knowing this. And he was the son of an imperious father.
And he followed Aragorn's leadership pretty well, once his objections were overruled.
It is little wonder that he did not get along with the rest of the Fellowship.
???
There is reason to think Sam disliked him (well, Sam was xenophobic and he didn't have anyone else to suspect in the Fellowship); Pippin clearly admired him. What other reasons do you have for this claim?
However though he had some ignorant remarks to give about Lothlorien and Galadriel's motives behind her testing of them
Ignorant? Do you realise that while in Lorien, both Sam and Frodo betrayed their Quest? Frodo was the only one charged with not giving the Ring to anyone not a member of the Fellowship or the Council, and Sam was the only one chraged with accompanying Frodo.
And if, as Sam himself said, Galadriel was the first which plainly showed him that he needed only to take the Ring - shouldn't he be more supicious of her motives? The fact that he does not expose her, shows how much he took Aragorn's assertion about her being good seriously.
What part of his heart's desire did Boromir take such umbrage at that he decided to deny its existence altogether?
Well, I supposed she mentally pointed out that the dream charged him with seeking the Sword that was broken, not the sword-bearer, thank you very much.
But as Boromir clearly realised - that would mean betraying Aragorn; and the Men of Minas Tirith are true to their word.
Galadriel was most likely not tempting Boromir with access to the Ring, because if she had been he would not have been ashamed to admit it.
Really? Why?
We can probably rule out the idea of some romantic matter that he had left unfinished in Gondor; nothing was ever mentioned about Boromir's love life, and as the son of the Steward any marriage plans probably wouldn't have been left up to him anyway.
No, I don't think we can assert that regarding the rules of marriage in Gondor. The nearest thing we know is Aladarion and Erendis, which implies that in Numenor the King's heir could choose.
However, appendix A clearly states that Boromir (like his namesake who was steward in the 2400s) took no interest in women.
We know already that Boromir did not like the fact that Aragorn was the heir to the throne of Gondor so we can't rule out the idea of Galadriel offering Boromir the kingship. In fact, when he said "We men of Minas Tirith are true to our word," I believe he was referring to the fact that the Stewards had given their word to honor the true heir to the crown, whenever he showed up to claim it.
Nope.
The Stewards have already rejected the claim of Arvedui, and it is clear that the Arnorean line of Isildur's heirs was considered disqualified.
Your suggestion works better with the far simpler version of Gondorean politics brought in the movies.
"Welcome, and well met!" - Gloin.
The weekly discussion of The Lord of the Rings is back! Please join us in the Reading Room.
"Caras Galadhon is actually a fortress... I guess I always imagined it as more of a nice garden with lots of trees. But someone put some serious thought into defending that garden."
- Altaira.
|
|
|
|
|
