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Airaloske
The Shire
Nov 22 2010, 10:56pm
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"The Mirror of Galadriel" Part 2
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Today's Reading
From "When all the guests were seated before his chair the Lord looked at them again" until "Now you shall rest, and we will not speak of your further road for awhile."
In this section of the chapter the Fellowship relays the news of Gandalf's demise to Celeborn and Galadriel. The two Elves take the news hard, but Galadriel retains her composure while Celeborn is very obviously rattled and makes some rash remarks towards Gandalf and the deeds of the Dwarves of Moria. Galadriel manages to regain control over the tense situation, placates any offended parties, and tests the character of each member of the Fellowship in turn.
What's Interesting?
- Galadriel "cannot see [Gandalf] from afar, unless he comes within the fences of Lothlorien." Is this true of all of the people on Middle-Earth or is there something blocking Gandalf from Galadriel's mind? Is it because he is one of the Maiar, or could it be because he is still dead, or is it simply because he doesn't want her to see him? I guess the core question here asks whether Galadriel has the power to see what any person is doing outside of Lothlorien just with a thought.
- Celeborn seems to snap at Haldir when he finds out that Gandalf has fallen. He reverts back to his native tongue, and it seems that Legolas steps in to deflect the ire of the Elf-lord from his friend. Legolas, the son of Thranduil who we know from The Hobbit to have somewhat of a zero-tolerance policy on any shenanigans, must be used to placating an irritated king.
- Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli all give the Balrog a different title according to their own race. Aragorn calls it an "evil of the Ancient World," Legolas calls it an "elf-bane", and of course it is called "Durin's Bane" by dear old Gimli. I find this to be interesting, how the Balrog can strike the same fear into three exceedingly diverse races.
- Galadriel originally summoned the White Council and wanted Gandalf at the head of it. How very, very different things would have been had Saruman not held the reins.
Celeborn and Galadriel: Different Approaches to the Same Obstacle
Celeborn and Galadriel are old. Old is an understatement; these Elves are ancient. They predate any of the civilizations of Middle-Earth. They have dealt with so many ridiculous situations and threats to the free world that the fall of one old wizard couldn't be that disastrous, could it? Sad, yes. Misfortunate? You bet, but is it cause enough to make Celeborn lose his cool in front of representatives from each of the free races?
Indeed it is, as we can see in this chapter. Celeborn not only snaps at Haldir, but he goes on to make accusatory remarks about the Dwarves of Moria and calls Gandalf, who we know to be one of the Maiar and is a higher power than any Elf could hope to be, a fool. Not looking so good for the Lord of Lothlorien.
Galadriel, on the other hand, keeps her composure through the whole conversation, and takes control of the situation entirely. Let's look closer at exactly what Galadriel did.
- Celeborn came dangerously close to saying some pretty rash things. Galadriel not only halted her spouse's verbal incontinence but later managed to show solidarity and support for her husband after he managed to offer words of peace to Gimli.
- Gimli must have been showing some agitation at Celeborn's words (beyond the "glowering and sad" expression he was wearing) for she not only extended a hand of kindness and understanding to him, she even used words in his own language to comfort him and calm the anger and sadness that could have been his undoing in Lothlorien.
So what?
The difference between Galadriel and Celeborn is this: Galadriel is much more powerful than Celeborn. Celeborn, powerful Elf-lord though he is, has nowhere near as much wisdom and forethought as Galadriel does, and therefore is much more rash than his spouse. First-time readers of the books will expect Celeborn to be the powerhouse in this chapter, seeing as the series has been very male-dominated up until this point, but Tolkien throws us around a curve and reveals Galadriel to be the real master (mistress?) of Caras Galadhon. It is important to remember that with Elves, gender is no indication of power.
The Company Tempted
"Your Quest stands on the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will fail, to the ruin of all. Yet hope remains while all the Company is true."
You said it, sister. While ALL the Company is true. Galadriel knows that the Quest can be accomplished even without Gandalf's aid or advice. What she does not know is if any of the members of the Fellowship will crack under pressure. She needs to make sure that none of their number will give in to their selfish wants. How does she do this? A simple test suffices.
She simple speaks to each member, offering them their deepest desires. What those specific desires are we can't possibly know, except in the cases of Boromir, Merry, and Sam (only because Boromir's desire is obvious, and Sam and Merry tell us what their particular temptations were. More on that is coming in the next section).
I find it very curious that only Aragorn and Legolas can hold her gaze for long. Legolas, obviously, can stand it because I believe fully that Legolas was so determined in his mind to see this Quest through to the very end that whatever Galadriel offered him was unimportant (Being of the same race couldn't have hurt any, either. Elves are such intriguing creatures). Aragorn, on the other hand, is a different story. Is it because of his bloodline that he can stand her gaze? Or is it due to the fact that he's used to staring Elves in the face? Or could it possibly be that he also was so committed to his destiny that the very idea of giving up and going home was absurd to him?
In any case, it is very gracious of Galadriel to give each member of the Fellowship the privilege to keep their temptations private. Not only did it ensure an honest answer, it kept the other members of the Fellowship from knowing the intimate desires of everyone's heart. Some things just don't need to be laid bare, even among the closest of friends.
Next Discussion
Only a very short passage tomorrow, seeing as I've got pies to make (US holiday and all). Our reading will be from "That night the Company slept upon the ground, much to the satisfaction of the hobbits." until "When they woke they found that the light of day was broad upon the lawn before the pavilion, and the fountain rose and fell glittering in the sun."
Including
- Oh, the privacy of Hobbits...
- Boromir, why such an attitude? Hiding your disappointment?
- "There is in her and in this land no evil..." Can Aragorn already tell that Boromir is starting to crack?
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Airaloske
The Shire
Nov 22 2010, 11:16pm
Post #2 of 14
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scratch that last part about the pies. I keep forgetting that today's only Monday. Still going to be a short discussion tomorrow, just no pies. This makes me very sad indeed.
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PhantomS
Rohan
Nov 23 2010, 6:41am
Post #3 of 14
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look deeeeeep into my eyeesss~
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I find it very curious that only Aragorn and Legolas can hold her gaze for long. Legolas, obviously, can stand it because I believe fully that Legolas was so determined in his mind to see this Quest through to the very end that whatever Galadriel offered him was unimportant (Being of the same race couldn't have hurt any, either. Elves are such intriguing creatures). Aragorn, on the other hand, is a different story. Is it because of his bloodline that he can stand her gaze? Or is it due to the fact that he's used to staring Elves in the face? Or could it possibly be that he also was so committed to his destiny that the very idea of giving up and going home was absurd to him?
Aside from being raised by Elves, Aragorn is also one of those rare men who has Numenorean characteristics and not only physically. The men of old were the closest to Elves that could ever be for mortals and were in fact greater in power and majesty. He's also met Galadriel before, so for him it's a case of deja vu. Galadriel's gift to him, unsurprisingly is the only gift that connects to the personal past rather than the future; Gimli's hairs are another story, which LoTR but non-Sil readers wouldn't know of. Hence Aragorn isn't really tempted by anything new, and Galadriel is quietly making him embrace his destiny even more. She doesn't know any other others so she girds them for the times ahead, and Gimli gets something incredible that is in its own category.
At Pelargir Gimli reckons Aragorn has the greatest will among mortals (in order to suffer the Dead) and Legolas supports that notion ,reminding us who Aragorn's famous half-Maia ancestor is.
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sador
Half-elven
Nov 23 2010, 11:11am
Post #4 of 14
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Galadriel "cannot see [Gandalf] from afar, unless he comes within the fences of Lothlorien."... I guess the core question here asks whether Galadriel has the power to see what any person is doing outside of Lothlorien just with a thought.
But she did, in the Mirror - otherwise how could she send Gwaihir to look for him? Look at appendix B: the Mirror and the return of Gandalf are on the same day. I very much doubt that Frodo telling her he saw someone who might be either Saruman or Gandalf would tip her off to the fact that Gandalf has returned to life.
Celeborn seems to snap at Haldir when he finds out that Gandalf has fallen.
Isn't that natural? Wasn't this something which should have been reprted? What are the border-guards for?
Reverting to the Silvan tongue is more tactful (not to undermine Haldir before the guests) than anything else. But I suspect that he is in for a demotion.
Legolas, the son of Thranduil who we know from The Hobbit to have somewhat of a zero-tolerance policy on any shenanigans, must be used to placating an irritated king.
Yup. He must have been spying on Dol Guldur for Gandalf when Thorin and co. came along, which explains why the dwarves were imprisoned. Look forward for Orli's cameo!
Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli all give the Balrog a different title according to their own race.
Aragorn doesn't. He describes what it is - please remember Gandalf's words about older and fouler things than Sauron after meeting the Watcher.
Galadriel originally summoned the White Council and wanted Gandalf at the head of it. How very, very different things would have been had Saruman not held the reins.
Very! For instance, they would probably attack Dol Guldur prematurely and be wiped out.
Celeborn came dangerously close to saying some pretty rash things. Galadriel not only halted her spouse's verbal incontinence but later managed to show solidarity and support for her husband after he managed to offer words of peace to Gimli.
Solidarity and support?
Gimli must have been showing some agitation at Celeborn's words (beyond the "glowering and sad" expression he was wearing) for she not only extended a hand of kindness and understanding to him, she even used words in his own language to comfort him and calm the anger and sadness that could have been his undoing in Lothlorien.
These were names, and public ones. But yes, Galadriel had a long history with dwarves - read Unfinished Tales.
Celeborn, powerful Elf-lord though he is, has nowhere near as much wisdom and forethought as Galadriel does, and therefore is much more rash than his spouse.
Right. Frodo would never offer Celeborn the Ring.
But in general, I think you are being unfair to Celborn. Most readers are. And while I don't agree with all of Michael Martinez's premises, I applaud his spirited defense of the abused lord.
It is important to remember that with Elves, gender is no indication of power.
No - race is. Galadriel the last of the Royal High-Elves, and before her Luthien the half-Maia.
But are Aredhel or Finduilas (my favourite one by far) that powerful, compared to their peers?
You said it, sister. While ALL the Company is true.
Of course, it eventually happened even without it.
She simple speaks to each member, offering them their deepest desires. What those specific desires are we can't possibly know, except in the cases of Boromir, Merry, and Sam (only because Boromir's desire is obvious, and Sam and Merry tell us what their particular temptations were. More on that is coming in the next section).
I suspect I am going to disagree with you. We'll wait until then.
I find it very curious that only Aragorn and Legolas can hold her gaze for long.
Actually, I don't. These two would need less to hide their inner thoughts from someone with her own agenda (as Boromir says). They are both committed to that of the Elves (and I refer you to Gildor's words about Elves' cares being very different from those of mortals).
In any case, it is very gracious of Galadriel to give each member of the Fellowship the privilege to keep their temptations private.
And the time to reconsider and eventually yield to them - see the beginning of the next chapter.
I apologise if I seem contrarian; over the last couple of years, it seems that my takes on the actions and temptation of Galadriel is different than that of most fans, so I would probably be so with any leader.
I am really enjoying this discussion!
"Welcome, and well met!" - Gloin.
The weekly discussion of The Lord of the Rings is back! Please join us in the Reading Room.
"Caras Galadhon is actually a fortress... I guess I always imagined it as more of a nice garden with lots of trees. But someone put some serious thought into defending that garden."
- Altaira.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Nov 23 2010, 12:49pm
Post #5 of 14
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Galadriel's gift to [Aragorn], unsurprisingly is the only gift that connects to the personal past rather than the future Although the Elfstone is the memorable gift, it's not actually Galadriel's gift to Aragorn - her gift is a sheath to protect his sword "even in defeat", so no more personal than anyone else's gift.
The Elfstone isn't really from Galadriel - it's all very diplomatically understated, but it's really from Arwen:
"...it was left in my care to be given to you, should you pass through this land." Then she lifted from her lap a great stone of a clear green... "This stone I gave to Celebrķan my daughter, and she to hers; and now it comes to you..."
A minor point, really, in terms of the gift-giving itself. But perhaps a major point in the hidden relationship of Arwen and Aragorn (and Galadriel's role in it).
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 23 2010, 1:23pm
Post #6 of 14
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I find it very curious that only Aragorn and Legolas can hold her gaze for long.
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I find it curious that Galadriel even tests Aragorn. Maybe to be egalitarian, she must test all of them, just as he had them all blindfolded them previously. But he's betrothed to her granddaughter, has been in Lorien before, is already known to Galadriel and has her favor, plus he's proven in numerous ways that he's the worthy Heir of Isildur and upholds the nobility and integrity of his line. Testing him seems unnecessary. So maybe he held her gaze long because her test was perfunctory and superficial. Or, maybe she did give him a rigorous test because she thought the Ring could corrupt anyone, even him.
What's also curious to me is that we don't learn the details of what she promises to each individual. That's probably Tolkien highlighting that it was all very intimate and not stuff that you would divulge--that someone reached into your very private dreams that you don't speak publicly. Yet it leaves me wanting to know the details just to know the characters better. Less can be more in creating the tension in the story, and while we can guess at what she promised Boromir, not knowing the specifics keeps us guessing at him too.
Her real hook on the hobbits was probably offering them 10 meals a day, complete with Mrs Maggot's mushrooms, a temptation they couldn't possibly turn down without herculean effort. :)
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PhantomS
Rohan
Nov 23 2010, 1:51pm
Post #7 of 14
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It is important to remember that with Elves, gender is no indication of power.
No - race is. Galadriel the last of the Royal High-Elves, and before her Luthien the half-Maia.
But are Aredhel or Finduilas (my favourite one by far) that powerful, compared to their peers?
Galadriel was described in the UT as being incredibly powerful among her entire race , being second only to Feanor himself and the tallest of all the female Elves. She is also of Aman, so she is more powerful than 'ME born' Noldor like Voronwe (Tuor's guide) and Gilgalad, or special Elves like Elrond. Being kindred of all three strains of Elves also boosts her characteristics and insights. I wouldn't include her in any discussion about gender roles, because she forged her own identity apart from the denominations Elves and High Men love. That's why she isn't Queen of the Noldor, but the Lady of the Wood, a title held previously by Silvan Elves.
Aredhel was known as a hunter and one of the few non-Feanorian royals to be friends with the Sons, but she was hardly known as a powerful person; she was under her father and Turgon's shadow for so long we have no chance to see any feats of power from her, if indeed she had any. Findulas doesn't really show anything of Galadriel's power; being most famous for being skewered on a tree is not really prestigious. Plus she's a generation below Galadriel (or two, depending on whose version), which makes her even less likely to be powerful.
Celebrimbor was perhaps a spike in a rather flat reading among his peers, since he was Feanor's grandson and Curufinwe's son and of course, managed to create the Three Rings. Pity he didn't make a fourth for Eregion and himself!
As a whole, and Glorfindel, Galadriel,Elrond and Cirdan excepted, the Third Age Elves in Middle Earth aren't really that powerful.
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Airaloske
The Shire
Nov 23 2010, 9:39pm
Post #8 of 14
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Instead of immediately snapping at Haldir wouldn't it have been more prudent of Celeborn to wait until he knew if Haldir had indeed made a mistake? Haldir may be a border guard but he's not omniscient, and he'd done his job pretty well to begin with. Can't blame a guy for what he doesn't know.
If Gandalf had ran the White Council they wouldn't have had to waste their time defending Rohan or destroying Isengard. The Rohan part of the series is lovely and all, and I'm glad that the hobbits had a chance to wake up the Ents (because Ents are ridiculously awesome), but things could have gone so much faster had there not been Saruman to mess with.
Solidarity and support, yes. If you'll look further in the paragraph that begins "'Your quest is known to us," you'll see that Galadriel mentions how wise and good Celeborn is. Showing anything other than a united front to strangers in your land is a most unwise decision. Galadriel had just rebuked her spouse in front of guests and needed to appease Celeborn's ego.
I don't doubt that you'll disagree with me on what Boromir was tempted with, but we'll be taking a little closer look at Boromir in the next section anyway.
I am glad you're enjoying this discussion. Please keep in mind that I haven't done anything quite like this before.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 24 2010, 3:51am
Post #9 of 14
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Galadriel's clairvoyance; Frodo's later revenge
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Pure speculation on my part about Galadriel seeing or not seeing Gandalf.
For whatever reason, I don't get the sense that she can (or wants to) see every individual everywhere. I conjecture it's only people she has a personal connection to. She didn't know Frodo and didn't see him coming to Lorien. She didn't know or see Legolas or Gimli coming either, but after she met them and they continued on their journey, she had prophecies for each of them that Gandalf communicated to them. She was "seeing" something about them: where they were in real time, or where they were headed, or what might happen to them. Did she see Frodo and Sam and help them in their battle with Shelob, especially since her Phial was key in that conflict? (Some say it was Varda herself, so that debate can wait.)
With Gandalf, I don't think she knows he's fallen/"dead" yet. She seems surprised too, and says she wants to talk to him, and where is he?
I'd guess the reason she can't routinely see Gandalf is that he is a Maia, and as Olorin he had that particular trait of walking unseen among Elves and giving them "fair promptings of wisdom" of which they didn't know the origin. Yet when he's on her turf, her power has the upper hand, and then she can see him.
"Gently you are revenged for my testing of your heart": she says something similar to this later when we get to the scene that names the chapter, and Frodo, with or without guile, politely offers her the Ring. Her reply about him getting his revenge for her temptation of him reveals that she knows it's not a nice thing to do, nor is it hospitable when worn out travelers first appear in your tree-loft throne room. She didn't do it out of malice, of course, but out of concern for the success for the quest, yet still she acknowledges that it was what it was: invasive, misleading, and (dare I say what's in the news right now) like an overly intrusive "pat down" into his and others' intimate regions (mental, not physical).
I wonder if they're all suddenly worn out afterwards because her mental probing is tiring in itself, or if she's laid a mild enchantment on them to go get some sleep and forget the probing sooner rather than later. While she does tell Frodo he is getting even with her, revealing her guilt, she never apologizes to any of them, which is rather curious.
I like Galadriel and am not finding fault with her, but this aspect of her could be fairly said to justify the suspicions of the human realms south of her, that witch in the wood who gets into your mind and plays games there.
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batik
Tol Eressea
Nov 24 2010, 5:32am
Post #10 of 14
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I guess the core question here asks whether Galadriel has the power to see what any person is doing outside of Lothlorien just with a thought.
Nah--but I do think she has more than enough experience to make very good guesses. Now, for those with whom she does have some kind of connection or those that are within eyesight-maybe she can *read* them with scary accuracy.
Galadriel not only halted her spouse's verbal incontinence but later managed to show solidarity and support for her husband after he managed to offer words of peace to Gimli.
 Something about the relationship between Celeborn and Galdariel...I don't know if it is due to what glimpses does Tolkien give us of these two--or what is left out! I did have a couple of questions about this in the last "Many Partings" discussion--
here-->
http://newboards.theonering.net/...ng=Galadriel;#156103
I get the remark about showing solidarity and support though. My folks will reach their 50th anniversary not so long from now. Regardless of the disagreements (he: I think I'll get a 20 ft. trailer for the tractor; she: nay, there will be no 20 ft. trailer) they *are* together, period. Galadriel may be the more insighftul one here--knowing that any appearance of division in front of "children" (aka non-Elves) may be disturbing, especially in this time of mega-crisis.
I see that Celeborn is noted to be "..the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth.." (bold, mine). Who are the other Elves *of* Middle-earth?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 24 2010, 5:43am
Post #11 of 14
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Yes, if it's just ME, Celeborn doesn't have much competition, does he? //
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batik
Tol Eressea
Nov 24 2010, 5:57am
Post #12 of 14
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it's been too long since I read TS! The Mirkwood Elves--of Middle-earth? At least some of the Rivendell Elves and others living Lothlorien? Other than Legolas, who do we know?
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PhantomS
Rohan
Nov 24 2010, 8:51am
Post #13 of 14
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I see that Celeborn is noted to be "..the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth.." (bold, mine). Who are the other Elves *of* Middle-earth?
-Cirdan's mariners (not Cirdan himself of course), Elves like Galdor
-Mirkwood Elves inckluding Thranduil and Legolas
-Lothlorien Elves and any Sindar who came with G and C
-Elrond's fellow Rivendell dwellers who are not Aman-born Noldor, presumably Erestor
-Some of the Wandering Companies
-other Elves who dwell so far East they aren't in our stories (the Avari).
Celeborn is perhaps wiser than the likes of Glorfindel as well, if only because he seems older and less war-like.
He was a prince of Doriath who grew up in Thingol's halls (presumably, since Thingol's own child was born before Galadriel arrived),so he does have the wisdom of ages and the foresight of old. Being in the company of the actual wisest Elf around (his wife) for centures doesn't hurt his standing either. If Elrond is wise from lore, Celeborn is wise from experience.
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Airaloske
The Shire
Nov 24 2010, 7:43pm
Post #14 of 14
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He has to have some sort of brilliance of mind or Galadriel wouldn't have married him. I don't peg her for someone to just go for a pretty face. "Wise from experience" is probably a good description of Celeborn
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