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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Dwarves confined four times

Auraran
Lorien

Nov 14 2010, 5:26am

Post #1 of 20 (789 views)
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Dwarves confined four times Can't Post

I’m struck by the fact that no less that on no less than three separate occasions in "The Hobbit" are all the Dwarves confined inside very tight closed spaces: (1) they’re "nearly suffocated" when confined inside sacks by the Trolls, (2) when they’re "feeling very sick" from being bound up inside spider’s web cocoons, and (3) when they’re stuffed inside "cramped" wine barrels like dogs "forgotten in a kennel for a week."

I wonder if the movie will show the very real fear that the Darves would've felt on each of these terrifying occasions? I hope they don't pass over it too lightly.

And there’s a fourth time (4) when you consider the Dwarves being shut up in prison, tho the cells were probably Elf-sized and weren’t as claustrophobically small as the other three places.

And every single time Bilbo remains free – and later frees the Dwarves.

This should make for some good comedic relief in the movies – basically showing all the Dwarves as somewhat less than nimble (in the first two instances) but it also shows that there is a dark, terrifying side to the lighthearted Hobbit story.


TheGoblinKing
Rohan

Nov 14 2010, 5:41am

Post #2 of 20 (393 views)
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It Shows [In reply to] Can't Post

That Dwarvs are not very smart a little bit and shows they would have been doomed without Bilbo and ironically The One Ring.


merlwynd
Rivendell


Nov 14 2010, 8:38am

Post #3 of 20 (375 views)
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mmmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

do you think flatuence may be in order?!!

MERLWYND
Bard's case to Thorin


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Nov 14 2010, 1:55pm

Post #4 of 20 (323 views)
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I expect their fear [In reply to] Can't Post

to be quite real, considering how two of their imprisonments were performed by creatures who intended to eat them. I don't imagine anything terrifying about the barrel-ride or the Elvenking's jail, though. Assuming they even keep the latter in – Mr Reddit says they won't. The barrel ride ought to be a mixture of funny and exciting.


Crunchable Birdses
Rohan


Nov 14 2010, 2:22pm

Post #5 of 20 (299 views)
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Hmmmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm more concerned with those scenes feeling repetitive to be honest. "Oh no. All the Dwarves are trapped. Again." Hopefully PJ et al. have a few tricks up their sleeve to make it work on film.

* crunch *


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 14 2010, 3:24pm

Post #6 of 20 (323 views)
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Reddit did not say the barrel ride was out. What he did say was [In reply to] Can't Post

" the 'Dungeon' sequence with the elves is gone as we know it, and replaced with what I think is quite a clever concept that creates a nice action set piece for all of the characters while not losing too much from what Tolkien wrote."

The escape could be by barrel. And I would say that to kill such an iconic event in the story would be stupid. I will wager that the barrels are in the end cut.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Nov 14 2010, 4:05pm

Post #7 of 20 (279 views)
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I know that. [In reply to] Can't Post

When I said 'the latter', I was referring to 'the Elvenking's jail', not 'the barrel-ride'.


Auraran
Lorien

Nov 14 2010, 6:53pm

Post #8 of 20 (246 views)
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The barrel ride [In reply to] Can't Post

While the barrel ride might be a mixture of funny and exciting on the surface, if you read Bilbo's feeling of fear at the time, and the Dwarves emerging half-dead from their claustophobic confines, it appears that the barrel-rides were a traumatic experience for all concerned. Remember also the Dwarves' strong protests at the plan in the first place.


Auraran
Lorien

Nov 14 2010, 6:56pm

Post #9 of 20 (249 views)
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I wondered about the repetition too [In reply to] Can't Post

Why did Tolkien use that plot device over and over again?

It raises a question: Did Tolkien suffer from claustrophobia and, identifying himself with Bilbo, "project’ his fear of being in tight places onto the Dwarves?

Anyone know? Maybe from his time in the trenches of WWI.


Garfeimao
Rohan


Nov 14 2010, 9:32pm

Post #10 of 20 (245 views)
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Who is this Reddit person? [In reply to] Can't Post

And why is this person saying what will and won't be in a film that hasn't even begun filming?

Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,


Garfeimao
The orange stripey One



Cruise to Middle-earth


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 14 2010, 9:34pm

Post #11 of 20 (245 views)
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A supposed insider [In reply to] Can't Post

who claims to know what's in the script, apparently. Time will tell.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 14 2010, 10:24pm

Post #12 of 20 (213 views)
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Been spot on so far.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


TheGoblinKing
Rohan

Nov 14 2010, 11:01pm

Post #13 of 20 (217 views)
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I Don't See [In reply to] Can't Post

Jackson and Walsh kept most things from the books in the films really. Only things they changed was silly things that would not work like Frodo dancing and puts on the ring.
I don't see why Peter would not do how its written. The Barrells and The Elves getting Drunk for most fans remember this part of the Book.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 15 2010, 12:20am

Post #14 of 20 (216 views)
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They might chang the Dwarve's escape to make it more exciting. [In reply to] Can't Post

That might make more sense from a movie standpoint.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


TheGoblinKing
Rohan

Nov 15 2010, 12:29am

Post #15 of 20 (208 views)
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Its About Bilbo as A Leader. [In reply to] Can't Post

Its not about the toughness of dwarvs. Its about Bilbo using the ring to smuggle them out which is what a Burgler is for. Sure they can make it slightly different lets say Thorin protest being put in a Barrell but they should keep the elves getting drunk and barrells as is . If for any reason to show Elves do make mistakes unlike we saw in LOTR. This makes Elves more mortal by this whole scene.
Besides they gotta get to lake town. Who knows maybe they find a couple of boats and steal some elvish clokes. But this would be a funny scene and after the spiders the movie would need one and before facing Smaug.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Nov 15 2010, 5:12pm

Post #16 of 20 (144 views)
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I'm not worried [In reply to] Can't Post

about repetition. The trolls in the forest putting the Dwarves in sacks so that Bilbo has to save them and the spiders in the other forest tying the Dwarves up in their webs so that Bilbo has to save them again are the only two instances that really feel similar. The Elvenking's dungeons are quite different from these, and the barrel-ride isn't really an imprisonment at all.


Curious
Half-elven


Nov 15 2010, 9:37pm

Post #17 of 20 (154 views)
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The dwarves repeatedly get captured or trapped. [In reply to] Can't Post

Trolls, goblins, wargs, goblins again, Giant Eagles, Giant Spiders, elves, and Smaug all capture or trap the dwarves. Gandalf frees them from the trolls and goblins. The Eagles free them from the wargs and goblins and then let them go. Bilbo frees them from the Spiders and elves. Bard unwittingly frees them from Smaug.

In The Hobbit, the dwarves are comic bumblers who never learn. They bumble from one predicament to another. They are no more adept at avoiding capture at the end of the tale than at the beginning. The story of their adventure moves from one trap to another, and without help from others they never avoid the trap. Their chief function is to get rescued.

Bilbo, on the other hand, has a character arc. He begins as a worse bumbler than the dwarves and matures into their rescuer. In the end the tone turns dark as the dwarves tragically ignore Bilbo's advice and shun his help, as well as Gandalf's, and pay dearly for doing so. But at least Bilbo reconciles with Thorin before he dies.

LotR, on the other hand, is an ensemble piece with numerous character arcs. The hobbits who must be rescued by Bombadil grow into heroes who rescue others. But Gandalf also grows from Grey to White; Aragorn from Ranger to King; Legolas and Gimli from racial stereotypes to fast friends; and even Boromir from soldier stereotype to protector of hobbits. Others grow as well; Theoden and Eomer and Eowyn and Faramir have short but important character arcs as they learn to trust Gandalf and Aragorn and the hobbits. Gollum and Wormtongue and Saruman and Denethor have the opportunity for growth and tragically pass it up.

I don't know how PJ plans to reconcile this difference in tone between The Hobbit and LotR. I'm guessing he will give the dwarves more distinct personalities and more character development, but if so how will that fit with their bumbling from one trap to another?


Auraran
Lorien

Nov 15 2010, 11:46pm

Post #18 of 20 (117 views)
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That question concerns me too [In reply to] Can't Post

The only way to avoid turning the Dwarves into the Keystone Cops is to (1) bring out their very different personalities, (2) emphasize the danger and seriousness and fear of their misadventures, and (3) emphasize Bombur as the comedic lightning rod -- with amaybe Fili and Kili as a Merry/Pippin comedy duo.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Nov 17 2010, 3:24am

Post #19 of 20 (93 views)
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More repititive than the number of times Frodo was stabbed? lol [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope PJ and company just stick to the book. The circumstances are each different enough to stand well apart. Don't steal anyone's thunder (literally in the case of Gandalf), just keep it as is and translate it gorgeously.

In Reply To
I'm more concerned with those scenes feeling repetitive to be honest. "Oh no. All the Dwarves are trapped. Again." Hopefully PJ et al. have a few tricks up their sleeve to make it work on film.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Nov 17 2010, 3:28am

Post #20 of 20 (172 views)
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And Bilbo doesn't even save them in the early instances. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf saves them from both the trolls and the goblins. Gwahir saves them from the wargs after Gandalf delays them with his fires.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

 
 

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