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"Forlorn hope"

Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 10 2010, 4:32pm

Post #1 of 11 (760 views)
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"Forlorn hope" Can't Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forlorn_hope

I would think Tolkien would have known about this.

Was Aragorn and the Dunedain a "forlorn hope" (Estel) or "lost troop" ("not all who wander are lost")? Was that in Tolkien's mind as a sort of pun on "hope"?


Like a "forlorn hope", maybe nobody really expected Aragorn to survive, but like a junior officer in command of a "forlorn hope", since he performed courageously and managed to survive he was rewarded with a high position.

In WWI Tolkien probably would not have been in the first wave, or "forlorn hope", of an assualt on enemy trenches but as a Signals Officer he probably would have been right behind them with a radioman and a couple of men laying communication wire.

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NARFOT since 1967.

NARFOP since 2001.

I'm NARFOB and I'm proud!!


squire
Half-elven


Nov 10 2010, 6:12pm

Post #2 of 11 (604 views)
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"Oft hope is born, when all is forlorn" [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien uses forlorn often enough in his fiction, but the sense is always clearly physical, conveying the sense of being lost and abandoned in some place. But the phrase in my subject line is from The Lord of the Rings, Book V.9. It is an Elven proverb quoted by Legolas -- in Gimli's retelling of how Aragorn struggled to lead the black ships up Anduin to the rescue of Gondor, against the current. This usage is the only one I can find or remember where forlorn is used somewhat metaphorically and then contrasted with the word hope.

I wonder if it is appropriate for us to insert "Estel" and by implication "Aragorn" in every place where Tolkien uses the word "hope" - but in this case it seems to work very well!

I don't see a good connection between this Tolkien-style proverb, and the more technical military usage you found for "forlorn hope". Especially since it contains a false cognate (i.e., in "forlorn hope", hope is an anglicization of Dutch hoop = English heap, as in: heap of dead bodies), I should think either Tolkien would have known this and stayed away from using it misleadingly; or he would have rewritten the phrase to what it would have been had it derived from Old English and made a very clever and erudite pun out of the result.

A very interesting phrase, none the less, which I'd never come across. Thanks!



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geordie
Tol Eressea

Nov 10 2010, 6:27pm

Post #3 of 11 (588 views)
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Don't think so [In reply to] Can't Post

- strictly speaking, Aragorn was not 'rewarded' with a high position - he was the king; but a king in exile. As such, it was his duty to do what he did. The fact that he had few men is immaterial in that sense. 'I have no help to send, (to Minas Tirith) therefore I must go myself' he said.

BTW - The signalling officers' brief was not to expose himself to enemy fire, but to maintain communications. This was done mainly by telephone, or by runners. AFAIK there was no portable field radio in WWI


Curious
Half-elven


Nov 10 2010, 6:43pm

Post #4 of 11 (591 views)
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What? [In reply to] Can't Post

You haven't read Cornwell's stories about Richard Sharpe?


dormouse
Half-elven

Nov 10 2010, 6:48pm

Post #5 of 11 (565 views)
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That's how I knew it too! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 10 2010, 7:19pm

Post #6 of 11 (582 views)
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Whoops! [In reply to] Can't Post

strictly speaking, Aragorn was not 'rewarded' with a high position - he was the king; but a king in exile. As such, it was his duty to do what he did. The fact that he had few men is immaterial in that sense. 'I have no help to send, (to Minas Tirith) therefore I must go myself' he said.

But the Council of Gondor had dismissed Arvedui's claim to the throne. One would suppose if Aragorn had walked into Gondor during a time of peace his claim would have also been denied. But since he came as a victorious savior and hero the people over-ruled any legalities. That is, in the end, one could argue Aragorn won the kingship by his deeds, not by any right. (Though doubtless the latter helped.)


BTW - The signalling officers' brief was not to expose himself to enemy fire, but to maintain communications. This was done mainly by telephone, or by runners.

Or by pigeons or dogs, or horses. (Tolkien's command would seem to have been a bit of a menagerie. I was surprized and amused that dogs were not only used to carry messages, but dogs were also used to carry cages of carrier pigeons back to the front.) A Signals Officer could find himself virtually anywhere, from following close on an advance in the front to directing traffic in the rear. One interesting story is how Tolkien was on horseback and found himself behind enemy lines. He ran into some Uhlans, rather nasty German (actually Polish) cavalry notorious for various alleged atrocities. (They also wore death's head insignia, though I doubt Tolkien was close enough to see.) They gave pursuit and Tolkien barely escaped back to his own lines, having to jump over fences and trenches. Supposedly inspired the Ringwraiths and the Flight to the Ford.

Bruce Bairnsfather in his account of the Somme in Bullets & Billets describes how junior officers had to lead and position and reposition various details during an advance. (Then herd them back during a retreat.) He himself was a Machine Gun Officer, but he describes how the Signals Officer in his unit did the same. He was especially impressed on how the Signals Officer would lead details out at night to repair telephone wire. Extremely dangerous.


FAIK there was no portable field radio in WWI

I believe there were some (if portable in name only), but you still score the point. I misspoke. I meant telephone instead of radio.

******************************************
NARFOT since 1967.

NARFOP since 2001.

I'm NARFOB and I'm proud!!


geordie
Tol Eressea

Nov 10 2010, 7:27pm

Post #7 of 11 (577 views)
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oh, heck [In reply to] Can't Post

- there was a discussion about this some time ago on a different board, and I can't remember where it is at the moment. That story comes from a letter from a clergyman, I believe; who heard it from Tolkien's son Michael? The thing is, someone did some research into this, and found several loopholes; for instance, the Uhlans were not deployed anywhere in the area where Tolkien was working; not to mention the unliklihood of Tolkien being behind enemy lines - on horseback or not.

I'll see if I can dig up some more on this story, but I'm afraid it seems to be pretty much that - just a story.


(This post was edited by geordie on Nov 10 2010, 7:29pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 10 2010, 7:45pm

Post #8 of 11 (590 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

On the old boards a member followed it up and actually contacted the clergyman who said that at least that's how he heard it.

******************************************
NARFOT since 1967.

NARFOP since 2001.

I'm NARFOB and I'm proud!!


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Nov 11 2010, 3:10am

Post #9 of 11 (563 views)
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"What is 'a real recurring nightmare'?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably the best analysis of the story of Tolkien's (imaginary?) encounter with the Uhlans is found in Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull's essay, "Truth or Consequences: A Cautionary Tale of Tolkien Studies", posted early this year to the Lord of the Rings Fanatics Forum. Here is a link. The whole piece, a version of which Scull presented at Mythcon 2008 in Connecticut, is well-worth reading. (Only a small portion is concerned with the Uhlans incident.)

You remember correctly that a TORN member wrote to the Rev. Waddington-Feather for more information: it was squire, as mentioned in this thread of Dec. 2006, the first of a weeklong series by Elizabeth (under her old screen name) on the subject of Tolkien and horses. I don't remember if squire ever mentioned receiving an answer, but there are links in that thread to a discussion five months earlier at the Barrow-downs forum, where Waddington-Feather's e-mail response to a contributor there was posted (with his permission), though it didn't directly address doubts about this incident. See also the link (in the TORN thread) to Bill Hicklin's comments at the Mythopoeic Society list on the location of German horse-units during the period in question.

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squire
Half-elven


Nov 11 2010, 3:27am

Post #10 of 11 (625 views)
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And then I woke up [In reply to] Can't Post

I never received an answer to this email that I sent to the address that Darkstone put me on to, back during that 2006 discussion. I may have reached the wrong Rev. Waddington-Feather, as I had feared I would.

Dear Rev. Waddington-Feather,


Pardon me if I have mistaken your identity, but I am writing to follow up this comment I believe you put on the BBC News website this summer. If I have reached the wrong Rev. Waddington-Feather, I apologize.

The story is quite remarkable, and has stirred up interest among numerous fans of J. R. R. Tolkien's work, of whom I am one. What I am curious to know, is whether you believe it is an actual account of an adventure of his, or whether what Mr. Michael Tolkien relayed to you was literally a "nightmare" that his father suffered, possibly repeatedly, in his sleep during that war.

The question has come up mostly through my own ignorance, I suppose. But my general understanding of the Somme battlefield conditions in the summer and fall of 1916 is that British officers did not ride their horses anywhere near the front line, where they would have made prominent targets above the trenchlines. Nor was it very easy to wander across No-Man's-Land, through triple-wire on a continuous front, much less ride back leaping trenches on the way. Nor were German cavalry lancers stationed on the front lines any more than the British were: cavalry were held in the rear, in reserve, waiting, as the saying goes, for the "breakout that never came."

Not that Tolkien could not have suffered such a nightmare! Strange states of mind are a commonplace in war, and if in fact he rode a mount as a signals officer, he may well have felt just as vulnerable and disoriented when riding at night in the rear areas as the dream episode conveys.

And amorphous fears reappear easily in our heads, transformed into new shapes. As you probably know, Tolkien (and his son!) had a life-long recurring dream involving an entire landscape being overcome by a vast dark wave. He employed this image to great effect in his myth of the downfall of Numenor, and it recurs in Faramir's mind in The Lord of the Rings. Yet Tolkien admitted he never actually experienced such an event (unless it was a childhood lost memory of a seashore visit). The mythological power he gave it in his writing is almost independent of the actual origins, of course.

Finally, I would ask you if you remember how much of your account comes from the actual language of J. R. R. T. as relayed to you via Mr. M. Tolkien; and how much is your own retelling of what you remember hearing or learning? The language is so specific, and also so colorful, that it seems possible that your memory of the communication has become the basis of a kind of "tale" rather than being a verbatim transcript of what Prof. Tolkien told his son so many decades ago.

Thanking you in advance for any consideration you may be able to give me, I am




squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Nov 14 2010, 5:48pm

Post #11 of 11 (580 views)
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Hope, but also fear! [In reply to] Can't Post

Abounds in Tolkien's works, and some might argue that Fear has a stronger influence. In fact, if one looks at the entire history of ME as we know it, fear was a mighty force. Consider how powerful the Numenoreans and Sauron were throughout much of the 2nd age and the fact that the forces of evil were in control of many countries in ME in the third age, one can consider that there is hope yes, but sometimes only a forlorn one and often not realizied. How much hope did someone like Turin have, for example?

 
 

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