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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Itaril storylines?
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Idril Celebrindal
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 3:37pm

Post #1 of 36 (694 views)
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Itaril storylines? Can't Post

I've been thinking about how a character like Itaril could be worked into the story, and it strikes me that we can look to literature (classic and otherwise) for inspiration.


There's the "Romeo and Juliet" approach:

A love beyond death! Despite their height and species difference, Itaril the Wood Elf found true love in the arms of Fili the Dwarf. But they were torn asunder by war and greed, not to mention the quarrel between her uncle Thranduil, King of the Mirkwood Elves, and Thorin Oakenshield, heir to the throne of Durin. Can these star-crossed lovers reunite and heal their peoples' differences before the greatest battle of the age?


Or the "Midsummer Night's Dream" approach:

Merriment ensues when a stray band of Dwarves accidentally stumbles into the autumn revels of King Thranduil! The Elf Legolas seizes the chance to get back at his unfaithful girlfriend Itaril, whom he tricks into falling in love with Bombur the Dwarf. Meanwhile, Thranduil imprisons Thorin, leader of the Dwarves, in revenge for an old quarrel. Bilbo the Hobbit is forced to use his magic ring to save the day. Will our lovers reunite? Will Thranduil and Thorin settle their differences? Will everyone dance and sing "Tra-la-la-lally" at the end?


Or the "Pride and Prejudice" approach:

It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single Dwarf in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife.

Or the "Anna Karenina" approach:

Happy Dwarves and Elves are all alike; every unhappy Dwarf and Elf is unhappy in their own way.


Or even the "Twilight" approach:

Elf maiden Itaril loved the Dwarf Kili the minute she saw him because his beard was so sparkly. But he was concealing a secret that could tear them apart! The Elf Lord Legolas also has the hots for Itaril (who is kind of plain and has brown hair and isn't very popular -- in short, she's exactly like you). He has a dreadful secret, too. Will Team Kili or Team Legolas win the day? More importantly, how many sequels can we squeeze out of this idea?

Other ideas? Angelic


With caffeine, all things are possible.

The pity of Bilbo will screw up the fate of many.

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(This post was edited by Idril Celebrindal on Nov 10 2010, 3:46pm)


Auraran
Lorien

Nov 10 2010, 4:09pm

Post #2 of 36 (336 views)
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Another possibility [In reply to] Can't Post

Itaril of the wood Elves pines for Bard the Bowman, noble heir to Dale. (Like many of Tolkien's Elf/Human love storiess.) She has met him a few times during the Elves' commerce with Laketwown. But alas, he is too consumed in his duties of serving the Master.

She is one of the Elves at the party who thinks their King may have made a mistake in imprisoning the Dwarves.

And yes, she sneaks into the battle, fights, survives, discovers the unconscious Bilbo and marries the heroic and noble Bard in the end.

I'm not saying I want this, but trying to think how they might weave her in. Somehow this sounds too "been there, done that."


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 4:12pm

Post #3 of 36 (330 views)
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Fabricating a fourth Man/Elf union [In reply to] Can't Post

would be playing with the lore a little too much in my eyes.


Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor


Nov 10 2010, 4:33pm

Post #4 of 36 (339 views)
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Or the Last of the Mohicans approach (movie version): [In reply to] Can't Post

Itaril helps Fili into the barrels and prepares to send the Dwarves on their perilous way. As she closes the barrel, she cries, "Stay alive! No matter what happens, I *will* find you!"



And suddenly the Tornadoes saw afar off a greenlight, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame;
and they knew that this was no vision only, but that PJ had made a new thing: The Hobbit, the Film that Is.


Eruonen
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 4:37pm

Post #5 of 36 (334 views)
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I am sure Elrond has elvish needs..... [In reply to] Can't Post

What happens in Mirkwood stays in Mirkwood.


Eruonen
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 4:39pm

Post #6 of 36 (312 views)
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That could work, Itaril finding Fili's body on the field.... [In reply to] Can't Post

weep, sob....Thranduil telling her it could never have worked out etc etc.

Hmm, I wonder if dwarves could breed outside their species...how "human" compatible was Aule's creation is unknown. The kids of such a union....fair dwarves?


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Nov 10 2010, 4:42pm)


King Isildur of Gondor
The Shire


Nov 10 2010, 4:47pm

Post #7 of 36 (300 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I like the "Romeo and Juliet" aproach to it. Cool



But not so sure it's plausible though Wink

- Isildur, son of Elendil -




acheron
Gondor


Nov 10 2010, 4:49pm

Post #8 of 36 (324 views)
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Star Wars [In reply to] Can't Post

Bifur: I don't like the rocks of Erebor. They are coarse and rough and get everywhere. Not like you, Itaril. You are soft and smooth.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams


Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor


Nov 10 2010, 4:54pm

Post #9 of 36 (298 views)
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Cheese-tastic! :D // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



And suddenly the Tornadoes saw afar off a greenlight, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame;
and they knew that this was no vision only, but that PJ had made a new thing: The Hobbit, the Film that Is.


Auraran
Lorien

Nov 10 2010, 5:02pm

Post #10 of 36 (293 views)
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My point exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

But I have a sneaking feeling that that might be an approach they take.

After all, it's only been done in the books a lot ... not in the movies. in the movies we have Aragorn and Arwen, and it's briefly mentioned that Elrond is half-Elven.


(This post was edited by Auraran on Nov 10 2010, 5:07pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 10 2010, 5:15pm

Post #11 of 36 (285 views)
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"Itaril and the Thirteen Dwarfs" / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Flagg
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 5:35pm

Post #12 of 36 (277 views)
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The fruit of such a union [In reply to] Can't Post

would not be too different from Men, I think...


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Nov 10 2010, 5:51pm

Post #13 of 36 (288 views)
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It's not the set-up that matters, but the pay-off. [In reply to] Can't Post

...Itaril becomes a prisoner of the Necromancer, who promises to make her "Orctastic!" (as well as head dishwasher in the kitchen of Barad-dûr). Purists and various NARFs jump to their feet and cheer, scaring the cr*p out of John and Jane Public in audiences around the world. ;)

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Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Nov 10 2010, 6:05pm

Post #14 of 36 (280 views)
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Hmmm - channelling Douglas Adams: [In reply to] Can't Post

In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, elven women were real elven women, and small furry Dwarves from The Lonely Mountain were real small furry Dwarves from The Lonely Mountain.

***************
Itaril felt at a bit of a loss. There was a whole Middle-earth of adventures out there for her, and she wondered if it was churlish of her to complain to herself that it lacked just two things: the undying home she longed for and the Dwarf she loved.

***************
The Council of Elrond, in its Great Meeting on the State of Elvinkind's breakout workshop on Love, decided that it is far too complicated to define. Elrond Halfelven has this to say on the subject of love: Avoid, if at all possible. Unfortunately, Itaril has never read the summary notes from the breakout workshop on Love.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


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(This post was edited by Ataahua on Nov 10 2010, 6:07pm)


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 8:11pm

Post #15 of 36 (237 views)
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Worse than sending the elves to Helm's Deep? [In reply to] Can't Post

Or worse than sending Faramir to Osgiliath? I don't think so, lore-bending wise.

My actual concern in such a move is cheapening the romance of Aragorn and Arwen in the trilogy. The only reason Arwen could actually become mortal and die is because her father and his children had the choice, due to their blood and their parents being awesome. Elrond's brother also had the choice, and once he went mortal, it does not seem that his children had any choice in that route. Arwen's children were probably- I'd say definitely- the same; once you make the mortal choice, there is no going back, and your kids don't get the same choice.

But explaining all that to the film audience? Explaining why Arwen gets a choice and not all other elves do? Yea, not sure how well that would work out without sounding like Mr. Exposition, especially since there is absolutely no mention of Earendil being Elrond's dad and Elrond also having the choice in the film trilogy.

For that sake, if she does become a romantic figure, I hope it's with another elf.

If she wasn't cast so young (with Saoirse Ronan the current rumor), according to the information we have, I'd say she could easily be Thranduil's wife.

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Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 8:13pm

Post #16 of 36 (236 views)
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Celebrian would kill him. And then Galadriel would kill what was left of him. Celeborn would come in for the finish. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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acheron
Gondor


Nov 10 2010, 8:25pm

Post #17 of 36 (245 views)
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Note the "three unions" were of Edain and Eldar [In reply to] Can't Post

Not "men" and "elves". If Itaril is Silvan/Avari, then that wouldn't bend it as such.

See also Imrahil and the people of Dol Amroth, who supposedly had "Elvish" blood, but obviously not from one of "the" unions.

(I may be wrong on this, but that is how I remember it.)

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 8:40pm

Post #18 of 36 (234 views)
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Yea, the little-known fourth union was between Imrazor and Mithrellas [In reply to] Can't Post

Mentioned in Unfinished Tales, IIRC. They started the whole Princes of Dol Amroth line.

As I mentioned above, there is no indication, nor necessarily reason, she would have the choice to turn mortal; only Luthien and her descendants seemed to have the choice. Interestingly enough, while she and Beren were brought back and were mortal, it seems their child, Dior, is considered "half-elven", and maybe he would have had the same choice if he had not been killed so early on in his life. Buttt he was 36 when he was killed, and he was already married and had 3 children, which would seem to indicate he matured pretty fast if he was considered an elf. He married an elf, though, and their union is not considered mortal/immortal union, so he would have to be an immortal half elf. Who just matured insanely fast.

I think I am confusing myself. In the end, there is no reason Mithrellas could choose a mortal life; she has no mortal blood within her. If such a choice applied to her children, I'd imagine we'd hear a little something about it... but it does not seem that the First Prince of Dol Amroth had such a choice and was just mortal with a bit of a longer lifespan.

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Flagg
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 8:41pm

Post #19 of 36 (213 views)
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You may be right [In reply to] Can't Post

I never really considered the possibility of a non-Edain/non-Eldar union... usually when I read 'Edain' and 'Eldar' I just think 'Men' and 'Elves'. Since Imrahil is of Númenorean ancestry, I sort of assumed he was descended from Elros when I read the line about him having Elvish blood. And I really don't think that's an unreasonable leap to make; the only way Aragorn could be Elros's only descendant after 6,500 years is through some serious inbreeding. Unimpressed

I think there's definitely room for other descendants. For example, I noticed that the family tree of the Kings of Númenor almost always omits the females. And all those generations of uncounted daughters have to go somewhere... Smile

Edit – Oops, yet another simul. Crazy I wasn't aware that Tolkien had specified the origin of the Princes of Dol Amroth's Elvish blood until I read Ainu Laire's post. But I believe most of what I said still stands...


(This post was edited by Flagg on Nov 10 2010, 8:46pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Nov 10 2010, 9:43pm

Post #20 of 36 (202 views)
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There were other man/elf unions [In reply to] Can't Post

But only three between men and the Calaqueindi, The High Elves (light elves). There is no record of how many unions there were between men and Silvan Elves, but the Princes of Dol Amroth were said to be descended in part from some of the elves who fled Lorien with Amroth and Nimrodel at the awakening of The Balrog in Moria.

In Reply To
would be playing with the lore a little too much in my eyes.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 10 2010, 9:57pm

Post #21 of 36 (190 views)
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It has to do with a little known practice in the Second Age [In reply to] Can't Post

Elf /Human transfusions.

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LordMaximus
Rivendell

Nov 10 2010, 10:20pm

Post #22 of 36 (181 views)
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Perhaps she won't be just a love interest? Maybe she has something else to offer? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


dormouse
Half-elven

Nov 10 2010, 11:11pm

Post #23 of 36 (173 views)
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Well, at the risk of sounding like a scratched record.... [In reply to] Can't Post

*pauses, really that some of the company probably don't know what a scratched record is any more...*

I still reckon Itaril and her elf lord have more to do with adding character to the Mirkwood elves and recognisable faces to the Elf King's army in the Battle of the Five Armies....

Just my theory....


worldsmiths
Bree

Nov 10 2010, 11:57pm

Post #24 of 36 (205 views)
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No Half-Dwarves. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
weep, sob....Thranduil telling her it could never have worked out etc etc.

Hmm, I wonder if dwarves could breed outside their species...how "human" compatible was Aule's creation is unknown. The kids of such a union....fair dwarves?



I very much doubt that either Dwarves or Hobbits could intermarry with Elves and produce offspring. Eles and Men are uniquely similar races. No one's entirely sure where Hobbits come from, but given their unique status as shorter-than-Dwarves I'd have to guess they are Illuvatar's duck-billed-platypus.


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 11 2010, 1:49pm

Post #25 of 36 (168 views)
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Itaril-hontas [In reply to] Can't Post

"Please don't kill Thorin, daddy! I love him!"

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I'm NARFOB and I'm proud!!

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