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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
How many of Gollum's and Bilbo's riddles should they sneak in?
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lurtz2010
Rohan

Nov 10 2010, 4:34am

Post #1 of 70 (751 views)
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How many of Gollum's and Bilbo's riddles should they sneak in? Can't Post

I'm rereading TH right now and just finished Riddles in the Dark and was just wondering how many of the riddles should actually be in the movie and which ones should they be?
Probably been discussed 10000 times already but I haven't seen anything recently.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 10 2010, 4:44am

Post #2 of 70 (444 views)
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Every last one.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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Snaga
Lorien


Nov 10 2010, 5:23am

Post #3 of 70 (439 views)
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All of them [In reply to] Can't Post

Since I was a kid, visualizing that scene while reading the book, it had me on edge. Bilbo was so close to getting eaten a couple times there.

I think it will jump right to the big screen, and with a very few alterations ratchet the tension up nicely.

"Alas for Boromir! It was too sore a trial!"

-Faramir


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 5:45am

Post #4 of 70 (418 views)
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I would hope all of them. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

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NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


jacf182
Registered User

Nov 10 2010, 7:18am

Post #5 of 70 (420 views)
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Considering that [In reply to] Can't Post

this conversation led to Bilbo getting away with the one ring and thus changing the course and the fate of the peoples of Middle Earth and thus gave shape to some of the best stories ever written, the entire riddle talk better remain an essential part of that movie script, unabridged! In my humble opinion.

Now, whether Bilbo cheated or not, that is for each one of us to answer.Cool

Wielder of the Flame of Anor


dormouse
Half-elven

Nov 10 2010, 8:27am

Post #6 of 70 (391 views)
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All of them... [In reply to] Can't Post

... and it's hardly 'sneaking' - ithe fate of Middle Earth hangs on that scene!


squire
Valinor


Nov 10 2010, 12:38pm

Post #7 of 70 (399 views)
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I don't think today's audiences will sit still for more than one or two [In reply to] Can't Post

And the ones that are left in should probably be rewritten to be easier for the audience to solve. They won't have the words on the book page to help them, and the film can hardly afford to give them time to try to solve it in their heads - that's "dead time" on screen, which is fatal to any blockbuster's chances of success and huge profits.

It might help the scene if at one point Bilbo puts a knife to Gollum's throat, or Gollum gets his hands around Bilbo's neck. Something physical and action-filled to keep the scene moving and engaging to the millions of LotR fans who will have waited ten years to see more battles like in Moria and Helm's Deep.

The Riddles Game is, of course, one of the most important in this well-loved book and should never be cut completely. Just fixed and improved for the new medium of film, as per the suggestions above.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Donry
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 12:44pm

Post #8 of 70 (361 views)
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Every one! [In reply to] Can't Post

And no need to sneak them in....just get'em in there!!!

What's the matter, James? No glib remark? No pithy comeback?"


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 1:16pm

Post #9 of 70 (360 views)
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Most of them. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think three or four would be enough. The one about the egg and the one about the fish are easy. The one about the sun on the daisies is tricksy. I don't think it would be necessary to include every single one... the film has a limited running time and there are more interesting scenes that deserve the extra time. If they want to include every single riddle, they can do so in the extended edition.


geordie
Tol Eressea

Nov 10 2010, 1:21pm

Post #10 of 70 (364 views)
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All of them - of course! [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien was proud of his skill at making up riddles - and the best 'adaptation' I know of any of Tolkien's works is his reading of the Riddle game on disc- (then tape, then cd). It's half an hour long, and not a second is wasted. Old JRR had quite a talent for acting.

Smile


(This post was edited by geordie on Nov 10 2010, 1:22pm)


film fanNo.7
Bree


Nov 10 2010, 1:21pm

Post #11 of 70 (358 views)
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All of them... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a very important scene for all of Middle Earth so I don't see why every piece of it shouldn't be in the movie.

You know you're cool when...
-You have a nerd-spasm just because you walk by your Lord of the Rings Extended Edition DVDs.
-You cry at the end of return of the king even though you've seen it about 13 times.
-You check TOR.n for updates when you should be doing your geography project.
-You would rather have Richard Taylor's autograph than Merryl Streep's.
-You doodle Treebeard in the margins of your math homework.
-Everything you say, or anyone else for that matter, relates to LotR even if it only makes sense to you.-by Gimli'sBox
But if that's what I'm like... well than too bad for normal people!


shadowdog
Rohan

Nov 10 2010, 2:43pm

Post #12 of 70 (337 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Film all of them and if they can't show all of them in the theatrical version, they can be in the extended version. Smile


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 10 2010, 3:04pm

Post #13 of 70 (347 views)
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Depends [In reply to] Can't Post

As squire said a direct transition from book to screen would bring the film to a screeching halt and lose the interest of the audience. (Unless you had, say, Miranda Otto wearing a skimpy spandex outfit covered in spangles, walking around in stiletto heels, holding up a placard with “Round 1” “Round 2”, etc., but that may be just me.)

Anyway, if you decide to include most or all of them I think a key would be something to foster audience participation. I’m thinking something like those electronic versions of pub quizzes where they ask a question and as the time counts down it gives you a series of clues until it’s pretty obvious what the answer is. (Of course you get more points if you answer the question early. Wait too long and you get zip.)

Let’s take this riddle as an example:

“This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king, ruins town
And beats high mountain down.”

Let’s say as Gollum asks the riddle we see superimposed over the scene a series of clues, like animated cartoonish images of baby birds growing up, kittens becoming cats, saplings growing into trees, flowers budding and wilting, iron rusting, a steel sword getting nicked and worn, stones being ground down to dust, a mighty king growing old and grey (a nice cameo for Elessar), a town getting run down over time (Minas Tirith?), and finally a mountain being eroded by time. It would also show Bilbo thinking as Gollum asks the riddle and as the clues play out (like they’re in his head) and he’d give the answer a moment or two after Gollum finishes. There would be a lot of the surreal about the whole thing, but if it works the audience will be hooked into trying to guess the riddle, and then they’d be eager for the next one, just like with the electronic pub game Quizzo. I’ve seen people get really into it.

This is where I think Del Toro would have excelled with his talent for animation and the surreal. If done right this could be one of the most popular and talked about parts of the film.

(BTW, I hope Jackson and Co. don't read this, otherwise they can't do it this way.)

******************************************
NARFOT since 1967.

NARFOP since 2001.

I'm NARFOB and I'm proud!!


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Nov 10 2010, 3:46pm

Post #14 of 70 (364 views)
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The 10 Riddles: Which ones MUST be used? [In reply to] Can't Post

1. What has roots as nobody sees, Is taller than trees, Up, up it goes, And yet never grows?
2. Thirty white horses on a red hill, First they champ, Then they stamp, Then they stand still.
3. Voiceless it cries, Wingless flutters, Toothless bites, Mouthless mutters.
4. An eye in a blue face Saw an eye in a green face. "That eye is like to this eye" Said the first eye, "But in low place, Not in high place."
5. It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt. It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills. It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.
6. A box without hinges, key, or lid, Yet golden treasure inside is hid,
7. A live without breath, As cold as death; Never thirsty, ever drinking, All in mail never clinking.
8. No-legs lay on one-leg, two-legs sat near on three-legs, four-legs got some.
9. This thing all things devours: Birds, beasts, trees, flowers; Gnaws iron, bites steel; Grinds hard stones to meal; Slays king, ruins town, And beats high mountain down.
10. "What have I got in my pocket?"


Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket

(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Nov 10 2010, 3:49pm)


Poppytook
Registered User

Nov 10 2010, 4:15pm

Post #15 of 70 (314 views)
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Definately all of them [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor


Nov 10 2010, 4:19pm

Post #16 of 70 (345 views)
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A girl in a bikini [In reply to] Can't Post

could walk across holding signs that say "Riddle 1", "Riddle 2", etc., each time a new riddle is started, so the audience will know when to move on to the next one, in case they're still working out the last one. The much-anticipated Itaril, perhaps?



And suddenly the Tornadoes saw afar off a greenlight, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame;
and they knew that this was no vision only, but that PJ had made a new thing: The Hobbit, the Film that Is.


Voorhas
Lorien


Nov 10 2010, 4:19pm

Post #17 of 70 (315 views)
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All of them... [In reply to] Can't Post

...they've got two movies to fill, you know!


Alassëa Eruvande
Valinor


Nov 10 2010, 4:26pm

Post #18 of 70 (319 views)
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I don't know whether [In reply to] Can't Post

to be pleased or disturbed that we both thought of sign-holding babes for the Riddle game. CrazyCool



And suddenly the Tornadoes saw afar off a greenlight, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame;
and they knew that this was no vision only, but that PJ had made a new thing: The Hobbit, the Film that Is.


acheron
Gondor


Nov 10 2010, 4:38pm

Post #19 of 70 (342 views)
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I think you're onto something here. [In reply to] Can't Post

She could come out of Gollum's lake, a la Ursula Andress in Dr No.

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams


Darkstone
Immortal


Nov 10 2010, 5:34pm

Post #20 of 70 (323 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

We don't really even need a riddle game as it could be like in the FOTR prologue: Bilbo finds the ring, then Gollum discovers it's missing. Then Gollum chases Bilbo to the exit and Bilbo escapes.

But if it be worked, why not all ten riddles and then a couple of dozen more or so from the Exeter Book?

******************************************
NARFOT since 1967.

NARFOP since 2001.

I'm NARFOB and I'm proud!!


moreorless
Rohan

Nov 10 2010, 5:42pm

Post #21 of 70 (304 views)
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I think you need to keep the riddles in character [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1. What has roots as nobody sees, Is taller than trees, Up, up it goes, And yet never grows?
2. Thirty white horses on a red hill, First they champ, Then they stamp, Then they stand still.
3. Voiceless it cries, Wingless flutters, Toothless bites, Mouthless mutters.
4. An eye in a blue face Saw an eye in a green face. "That eye is like to this eye" Said the first eye, "But in low place, Not in high place."
5. It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt. It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills. It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.
6. A box without hinges, key, or lid, Yet golden treasure inside is hid,
7. A live without breath, As cold as death; Never thirsty, ever drinking, All in mail never clinking.
8. No-legs lay on one-leg, two-legs sat near on three-legs, four-legs got some.
9. This thing all things devours: Birds, beasts, trees, flowers; Gnaws iron, bites steel; Grinds hard stones to meal; Slays king, ruins town, And beats high mountain down.
10. "What have I got in my pocket?"

I don't think you could give one characters riddles to the other, they relate too closely to each character. Gollums obviously telling you alot about his own story and Bilbo's reminding him of his former life.

Bilbo's actually seem the harder to get across to me, #8 should definately make it as thats a pretty common one I'd guess alot of the audience will pickup on, #6 is less common but also pretty easy to understand when you hear the answer plus of course #10 has to be there.

I think pretty much all of Gollums would work well on film, I'd go with #3, #5 and #7 personally. #9 is a nice threatening setup but Bilbo's accidential reply would be hard to get across and I think you could slip in #5 instread as thats pretty threatening aswell.

I think you'd need a minimum of three riddles each for Bilbo being unable to think of anything but #10 to be believeble and to build up some tension.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 5:46pm

Post #22 of 70 (315 views)
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They need the riddle-game. [In reply to] Can't Post

'Shire... Baggins... but that will lead them here!'

The last thing that line needs is to be turned into a plot hole. Smile


King Isildur of Gondor
The Shire


Nov 10 2010, 5:48pm

Post #23 of 70 (300 views)
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what the heck! [In reply to] Can't Post

put all of them in there CoolCool

- Isildur, son of Elendil -




geordie
Tol Eressea

Nov 10 2010, 6:55pm

Post #24 of 70 (306 views)
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Oh, surely not - [In reply to] Can't Post

Riddles from the Exeter Book? Why, no; that would be going too far. But there are two other riddles by Tolkien; in Anglo-Saxon, that pJ and co. might consider. These were published in the Leeds University anthology _A Northern Venture_ (1923 - mine is one of the 200 copies of the 'second impression of July 1923) The riddles together are called 'Enigmata Saxonica Nuper Inventa Duo'. There's no modern English translation; I suppose the book's intended buyers were expected to know Anglo-Saxon.

For those without access to the 1923 booklet, these can also be found in Doug Anderson's _The Annotated Hobbit (2002, pp.124-5)

Smile


(This post was edited by geordie on Nov 10 2010, 6:56pm)


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Nov 10 2010, 7:14pm

Post #25 of 70 (300 views)
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Then I guess it depends [In reply to] Can't Post

on whether Doug Anderson is too spiteful to sell the rights to The Annotated Hobbit. Tongue

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