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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
NZ Parliament TV live
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Owain
Tol Eressea


Oct 29 2010, 12:27am

Post #101 of 131 (410 views)
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Ah yes it did! A link from TVNZ [In reply to] Can't Post

Click here

SmileSmileSmile

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Owain
Tol Eressea


Oct 29 2010, 12:28am

Post #102 of 131 (402 views)
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Got it. Thanks!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 29 2010, 12:29am

Post #103 of 131 (412 views)
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Good, I looked it over [In reply to] Can't Post

and I didn't see anything to be concerned about. Not that that means much, I'm an Americano.

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim?


Gildor
Rivendell

Oct 29 2010, 2:21am

Post #104 of 131 (413 views)
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Apocalypse? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your hyperbole clearly shows your bias.


Gildor
Rivendell

Oct 29 2010, 2:25am

Post #105 of 131 (390 views)
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Perspective [In reply to] Can't Post

The truth in this matter is a matter of perspective, and what your emphasis is.

Everyone wants TH in NZ. No one wants workers to abused.

One side emphasizes the positive effect of big business (jobs and money and tourism) and the urgency of holding onto the billions.

The other side emphasizes the workers and making sure they're government is doing right by them.

So both sides are right, but it's a matter of triage; what are your priorities?


Gildor
Rivendell

Oct 29 2010, 2:36am

Post #106 of 131 (401 views)
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Maybe you're not reading closely enough [In reply to] Can't Post

Post: and I didn't see anything to be concerned about. Not that that means much, I'm an Americano. -Tim


You seriously think the 50 MP's in opposition, and the numerous voices on this board that have said that there legitimate points of concern, have nothing productive to add to your knowledge?

The bill will eliminate an avenue of recourse. Employees have benefits and protections that contractors don't have. Contractors will not be able to litigate to get rights as employee if they feel they deserve them. It doesn't absolutely mean that bad things will happen, but it does eliminate a a worker right. That is the concern some have for this bill.

BTW, no one said the sky was falling, no one said this is the apocalypse. Some are just saying that it's a concern that workers lose a right here.










Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 29 2010, 2:50am

Post #107 of 131 (408 views)
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Look I'm no lawyer [In reply to] Can't Post

so by a layman's view I still stand by what I said earlier. Now a contractor knows exactly what they're getting into and that can be said in a way to be a form of recourse. If they find their employment situation is changing they know they can go to their boss and say - "hey look I don't want to be considered a contractor anymore how about hiring me on as a part time/full time employee?" That can help avoid lengthy and costly legal action I suppose. I don't see how the old law was made anything any easier - the contractor was just able to get confused about whether they could be considered an employee or not and still had to go to court to get satisfaction.

And regarding the MP's - I listened to one of them and he just railed on and on about one of his fellow legislators and didn't even talk about the law. Came across to me pretty much as Americano politics where they vote down party lines. Didn't have time to listen to it all. So yeah, I read the law and I seriously don't agree with the 50 MP's for the reason's I cited.

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim?


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Oct 29 2010, 3:04am

Post #108 of 131 (389 views)
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I feel... [In reply to] Can't Post

it only makes sense to clarify that someone hired (and who has signed an agreement) as a contractor - should be, beyond doubt, a contractor. However, I'm also not sure I feel comfortable with the fact that this law change came about as a result of Warner Brothers' request. I understand the uproar some NZ politicians and citizens would have with a foreign corporation having a hand in a law change. I also, however, really want The Hobbit shot in NZ - so I'm at odds with myself... Crazy

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 29 2010, 3:07am

Post #109 of 131 (387 views)
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If it makes you feel any better [In reply to] Can't Post

none of us live in a vacuum and all countries write laws to accommodate the wishes and needs of people and industries in other countries. It's just not usually such a public spectacle.

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim?


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 29 2010, 4:45am

Post #110 of 131 (388 views)
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At this point, [In reply to] Can't Post

posting in this particular thread is probably like dropping pennies in a deep well...

Regardless, although I have enjoyed reading your perspective, and agree with most of what you have said, I must tell you that it is not appropriate, nor in keeping with friendly debate, to cast aspersions on anyone by drawing direct attention to their biases. (Yes there were 5 commas in the preceding sentence.) We all have them, end of story.

Proviso: Although many of us are happy to spend hours reading and posting on message boards for free, some people in this crazy world are paid to enter into debates and stick to a certain ideological line to the point where it is no longer even rational for them to do so. An obvious clue that you are dealing with such a person is that they never ever give an inch to those with opposing viewpoints. And usually they are downright obnoxious. Not only should such operators be confronted, they should be rooted out and shown the virtual door. Thank goodness TORn is free of such people.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Oct 29 2010, 4:47am)


Gildor
Rivendell

Oct 29 2010, 4:55am

Post #111 of 131 (369 views)
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And... [In reply to] Can't Post

And thank goodness I am not one of them!


Gildor
Rivendell

Oct 29 2010, 5:09am

Post #112 of 131 (373 views)
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Not aspersions [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not meaning to attack anyone's reputation (ie aspersion) I just find it frustrating when I (and others) have voiced concern, and we are derided for proclaiming the apocalypse or that the sky is falling! Voicing concern is not proclaiming that all workers are treated unfairly, or that the earth as we know it is coming to an apocalyptic end.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 29 2010, 5:19am

Post #113 of 131 (384 views)
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Yes, at times, [In reply to] Can't Post

it has been frustrating holding a contrary opinion around here. It's just that when things get personal, if they don't get deleted first, they usually only get uglier. As I said, I agree with much of what you have said in several threads. Funny thing, the "sky is falling" criticism was levelled against Peter Jackson by a well know NZ actor.

I can assure you that there are quite a few others who have read and agree with many of the points you have made, but who are not posting for a variety of reasons...


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Oct 29 2010, 6:02am

Post #114 of 131 (361 views)
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Out of curioisty: why are they not posting? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it that they are lurkers? Or that it is deemed an inopportune time?


VoronwŽ_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 29 2010, 6:31am

Post #115 of 131 (638 views)
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My concerns [In reply to] Can't Post

I must say, that as a lawyer, I am quite uneasy about this bill. My concern is this. In my experience, there are a number of factors that are considered in determining whether a worker is an employee or an independent contractor. Among those factors are, of course, how the parties define the relationship, and what the standard practice for workers in the industry is. But by far the most important factor is the degree of control that the employer has over the worker. In many circumstances, if an employer sets standard hours that the worker must do her work, requires that the work be done on site, requires that the worker use its equipment rather than her own equipment, and has the right to determine exactly how the worker has to perform his tasks, the worker is determined to be an employee, even if the parties define the relationship as a contractor relationship, particularly if the person is hired for an indefinite period or a very extended definite period, and the worker works exclusively for that employer. From the little that I have seen, it appears that the general law normally is not that different from that in New Zealand. What this new law does is set up a situation where workers in this one industry must be defined as contractors no matter how many factors weigh in favor of them being employees, unless the parties specifically agree to define the worker as employees. I think that is too rigid without any provision built in to allow for exceptions. I am also concerned -- as Gandalf's Mother previously posted as well -- that the thing is being rushed through so quickly that it is not allowing a regulatory impact statement to be prepared.

I fear this law will cause more problems then it will solve.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

www.arda-reconstructed.com


Peredhil lover
Valinor


Oct 29 2010, 6:53am

Post #116 of 131 (356 views)
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AYE!!! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.

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TORn Travelling Journal website


Peredhil lover
Valinor


Oct 29 2010, 6:55am

Post #117 of 131 (336 views)
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*lol* [In reply to] Can't Post

That just proves that politicians worldwide are the same. It reminds me so much of the politics going on here Laugh Nicely put! Evil



I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.

TORn Link Collection
TORn Travelling Journal website


Eledhwen
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 29 2010, 7:05am

Post #118 of 131 (370 views)
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I think you're right about party lines voting [In reply to] Can't Post

It happens that the opposition (Labour and the Greens) number about 50 and National managed to persuade its partners in the coalition to vote for the legislation. Labour was always going to go with the union view.

Penguin walking


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Oct 29 2010, 10:37am

Post #119 of 131 (340 views)
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Most of your posts clearly show bias too. [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing wrong with an old spot of bias, you know. Smile


Gildor
Rivendell

Oct 29 2010, 3:17pm

Post #120 of 131 (325 views)
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Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for bringing an expert opinion into the fold. As one of the many non-lawyers on here, I try to make the best sense I can with my limited law knowledge, but sometimes I don't know enough about all the specifics to be sure of my position.

So thanks for your thoughts on these matters.


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Oct 29 2010, 3:33pm

Post #121 of 131 (327 views)
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Thank you, Voronwe [In reply to] Can't Post

For a sober and expert analysis of the law. After all, it is a very short piece of legislation, and its potential implications can be quite clearly assessed.

One of my greatest concerns during this series of events was that an obsession of ours (Middle Earth), and I speak for myself when I say I have been obsessed with this imaginary place for nearly 20 years, was dramatically and dishearteningly clouding our judgement about what would normally be considered a legitimate debate about the rights of workers in New Zealand, the merits or demerits of rushing significant social legislation through the NZ Parliament, and the dramatic influence of a corporate entity over a government and, by extension, NZ taxpayers.

This is a discussion that is worth having, soberly and without distortion. Yet, it seems, that the burning desire to see these films made, and made in NZ, which I share, has created an atmosphere of you're either with us, or against us.

I say no to that. No, I am not either with one camp, or against one camp. I am only interested in measuring the impact of a piece of legislation. That, to me, is more important than seeing that the film stays on its February schedule.


(This post was edited by Altaira on Oct 29 2010, 7:02pm)


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 29 2010, 3:49pm

Post #122 of 131 (318 views)
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Just to clarify [In reply to] Can't Post

On the off chance you're referring to my 'concern' and 'sky is falling' post.

My intent was to encourage concern, and voicing concern here on these boards. The point I was trying to make was that there is a big difference between voicing concern about something, and speaking about it as if it was already a done deal; that it's not only already fact, but that blame must be assigned for something that hasn't even happened yet.

If I didn't make that clear, then that's my bad. I wholeheartedly support people voicing their views on the topics at hand, as long as they conform to the ToS for the site.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


cameragod
Lorien


Oct 29 2010, 7:23pm

Post #123 of 131 (278 views)
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Being a contractor [In reply to] Can't Post

does not mean I have no rights. As crew I have the Blue Book as guide to what my conditions should be. Actors have the Pink Book and their agent on their side. If the conditions are not meet then there are several avenues open to us.
This is not bad law. It is not even unusual for law to be passed under urgency... the privious Labour government used it a lot during their 9 years in power so it is a bit ironic them bleating about that now.
This whole thing comes down to trust.
I trust the productions to treat me like a professional and the production trust me to do a professional job.

All artists are prepared to suffer for their work, but why are so few prepared to learn to draw? :BANKSY


"A Cameraman without a camera is just a man." Stephen Press


Rosie-with-the-ribbons
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 29 2010, 8:03pm

Post #124 of 131 (272 views)
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My thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't jumped into this discussion before, because I just know too little of the subject. But I wanted to let you know my thoughts.

I still think for a real opinion we should wait until they start hiring people under the new law. It could go either way. Either they hire contractors and really give them no benefits, no insurance and what so ever. Or they hire contractors, give them the same benefits as employees but just with an easier way to let them go after all the work is done.

I don't think it will be the first that will happen. If they do so, people might work for The Hobbit, but after being mistreated and underpaid they will never ever work for that company and will tell all their friends who also will never work for that company (and there aren't that many filming companies in NZ) . So in the end it will work against the company mistreating the contractors.

But I know a friend of mine who is a horse back rider in NZ and was planning to maybe join, but now she is afraid there won't be an insurance if she might get into an accident, so she is really reconsidering it.

As said before I think we will have to wait. I really hope that it won't turn into something bad for the actors and other people related to the filming industry in NZ. But I have the feeling it won't.

And I was just wondering. Do you yourself live in NZ? And are you working in the movie-making business? Just pure curiosity because you feel so intense about this whole situation.



cameragod
Lorien


Oct 29 2010, 8:36pm

Post #125 of 131 (264 views)
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Ok [In reply to] Can't Post

Productions will all have their own insurance that will cover everyone working for them.
But as every company I work for is different I also carry my own liability insurance, so if I drop my tripod on someoneís head Iím covered up to 1 million.

If your friend is worried they just need to talk to the production and they will say what is covered. Itís a stand question.

This is me on imdb

I live and work in Wellington NZ. Iím doing ok but our film scene is a bit grim at the moment, hence I do a wide range of other camera work... even news. When LOTR came to town it brought with it a lot of other work even for those of us not directly working on it.
A lot of us have been holding on waiting for the Hobbit in the hope it will breathe life back into our local industry. Every delay has been like having the finish line moved in the middle of a marathon.

Then just as the end is in sight to have the union of all people rip the food from my childrenís mouths just to make political capitalÖ yes I do feel intense about it. :)

All artists are prepared to suffer for their work, but why are so few prepared to learn to draw? :BANKSY


"A Cameraman without a camera is just a man." Stephen Press

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