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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Does the MEAA have legitimate complaints?
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Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Oct 24 2010, 7:26pm

Post #26 of 83 (493 views)
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Relax, AngryDwarf [In reply to] Can't Post

You're not helping your cause by lashing out as nastily as Fran and Philippa did on that recent interview. There seems to be an incredibly unhealthy "defensiveness" on this issue, and I wonder if it has to do with a recognition that New Zealand simply cannot exist in a Shire-like bubble for ever, ignoring the labor laws and protections that exist in most of the civilized world. No matter how poorly NZAE handled the situation, this seems to be something of a wake up call to the New Zealand government. The significant expansion of its film industry means that it will need to start treating people who work in that industry in a way that is consistent with most liberal democracies across the world. You may call this "Sharkey's revenge" but I call it the initial awakening of a labor justice movement in the NZ film community. It was bound to happen sometime.


cameragod
Lorien


Oct 24 2010, 7:27pm

Post #27 of 83 (519 views)
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There are some bad employers [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Do the union have a point? Well there are bad productions out there. There was a production company over here that when they needed children would ring local schools, ofter the school $10 a child, then work the children a 16 hour day and expect them to bring their own lunch. It was called work experience but it was exploitation pure and simple. When the union was contacted they said The kids are having fun what do you expect us to do about it?
When an employee was raped and the production fired her and then replaced her with the rapist the union said it was nothing to do with them it was a domestic matter.

They are the production companies I won't work for. In a small market like NZ that is never an easy choice. But for a guy who always seemed to end up playing Paladins in D&D I'd rather starve than work for those SOB, even if that means my kids sometimes miss out on some stuff.

If the unions had gone after one of the bad productions you would have heard us all cheering from the sidelines but to go after Peter??? the guy who has lifted the standards of employment in NZ, doing more for us than the unions ever have. The guy who has invested heavily in our film making infrastructure. It just makes no sense.

Just so you know, I won't get any work directly on The Hobbit but just having it in town will have a massive benefit to the general amount of work that will happen in Wellington.
Not only did they pick the wrong target they are messing with my livelihood.

All artists are prepared to suffer for their work, but why are so few prepared to learn to draw? :BANKSY


"A Cameraman without a camera is just a man." Stephen Press


Magpie
Immortal


Oct 24 2010, 7:54pm

Post #28 of 83 (481 views)
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something else I'm remembering [In reply to] Can't Post

...is some comment, probably in ROTK appendices material, about the number of divorces that happened after the movies were made. It was either openly, or covertly... I can't remember... assumed that the amount of hours the people at Weta Digital and other similar non-actor positions has put in just took their toll in the end.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ June 2010 : ROTK Lyrics Update!
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Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Oct 24 2010, 7:56pm

Post #29 of 83 (491 views)
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Is it correct that the unions are messing with NZ livelihoods? [In reply to] Can't Post

Can it not also be said that Warners, PJ and Fran are messing with people's livelihoods? If they simply agree to meet with NZAE to negotiate a fair agreement with NZ actors, they would likely be able to keep the film in country. Helen changed her tune, it seems, from the legally questionable request for an acceptance of collective bargaining, to an ask for Warners to talk about a set of recommendations from NZAE. I think the almost brutal nastiness coming from PJ, Fran and Philippa is enhancing the impression that they are not particularly concerned about protecting the people that work on their films, and that they just want to do their film, make NZ alot of money, and leave it at that. My guess is that Warners got cold feet, and PJ and co. panicked. The best thing to do is accept the basic demands of of NZAE, and draw up an MOU with NZAE wherein they agree to not disturb the films going forward, provided that some basic demands from NZ actors are met. That may be the best way to keep this in NZ.

But the threat from Philippa to move production to the UK is preposterous. No matter what the difficulties might be in New Zealand, the UK is a far, far more expensive place to make a film, and has labor laws that are far more progressive. I think this is an empty and viciously dishonest threat to make. It has whipped NZ into a nationalistic fury, and this did not need to happen. The reality is that Warners, PJ and Fran can keep the film in NZ by providing basic assurances for workers. It is up to them to keep the film in NZ.


Richie Rich
Rivendell


Oct 24 2010, 8:08pm

Post #30 of 83 (463 views)
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Well yes and no [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it has already been shown that PJ's "agreement" with the actors was more than fair, and shouldn't have been an issue whatsoever. The main complication now is Warner's lack of trust in the stability of NZ.



Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Oct 24 2010, 8:11pm

Post #31 of 83 (464 views)
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Then NZ must change [In reply to] Can't Post

In order to ensure stability, the NZ government needs to quickly adapt its labor laws to meet 21st century democratic standards. That is why the NZ government needs to meet with Warners, and will meet with Warners. To discuss what needs to be done in order to stabilize the country's labor situation. In the end, this dispute could very well be a good thing for NZ's progress in this area. UNLESS the NZ government decides to try to make any kind of "labor disturbances" illegal, as it may be considering doing. That would be a disastrous move. It would allow PJ to make his film, while pushing New Zealand society into a severely regressive direction. What a horrible legacy that would be.


Magpie
Immortal


Oct 24 2010, 8:17pm

Post #32 of 83 (463 views)
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a few thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

I made mention of this in another post but I think there are good reasons for pushing oneself hard and for working for no or very low pay. Sometimes we're working as interns, getting experience in a field of work. Sometimes we're with like minded individuals ... all working for almost nothing or even paying out of pocket to see a dream realized. In your case, you worked hard to benefit others.

But LOTR and/or The Hobbit are not a charities. Someone will be making money. And I'd wager that someone or some people will make a LOT of money. Or their corporations will and that will benefit them in their high paying position.

Now, if I were a new graduate or apprentice in a field, I might be willing to work for almost nothing or even nothing to gain experience and love that fact that it was a film I felt passionate about.

But why would we ever expect people just trying to make a living i
n their chosen career and with good experience in that field.. and trying to maintain a life and relationships in that life outside the film to work for nothing or next to nothing... or endure extreme hardship with minimal compensation (those folks on a crab boat work that hard but they have the potential to take home 20 thousand at the end of a few months... did Shane Rangi make that much after 8 months?). And why should we ask them to do it for next to nothing when someone else is getting way, way more than next to nothing.

I'm sure the people who worked on Born of Hope worked for very little (if any compensation). I'm sure they worked hard. I'm betting some even funded their own expenses or the expenses of the film as they worked on it. I bet few of them are going... gee, I was a sucker for doing that. Those are choices we all have the opportunity to make at one time or another and I think a lot of us feel pretty good with our choices in those situations.

Now lets imagine those folks making Born of Hope had a funder who contributed some small amount. He seemed to be another one of them. They were happy for the cash or maybe the facilities to edit the film. In exchange, this funder got rights and after the celebrated their achievement they saw the film they work hard to make distributed and licensed for marketing. Action figures, lunch boxes, special edition DVDs, and video games. This funder makes, in the end, a lot of money. But they people who worked hard did not get any more. Now, this is not an allegory for LOTR at all. This is just a set up to illustrate how those people we once imagined as being enthusiastic and passionate and proud of their sacrifices now feeling a bit like chumps.

I am not sure why we would expect people to work themselves to exhaustion and divorce and not look around and wonder why the person in LA is rich... and they aren't.

as to Sean, I think he is a bit of a whiner and I recognize a comrade because I am too. If I had been working on those films, I'd be whining too. It's in my nature. People like us shouldn't do this sort of work. I was reading some comments from the person who was originally cast as Theoden and he would have been a whiner too. He was whining before filming ever started. I am immensely grateful that he stepped aside and we got Bernard Hill instead. The first person may have been just as good of an actor but the project benefited from Bernard's energy. I can't speak as to what Sean contributed or drained from that energy but he made the film. For all his whining, he didn't let us down, did he?

But he comes from a union background too. He may have just wanted some more consideration for the people working on the film and I don't know if that's a bad thing to want. I've had those jobs where the owners/managers have no consideration for the working conditions. When we say 'I'd do that for free and never complain', you are ceding an awful lot of power over to people who can wield it in pretty miserable ways. And, I would suggest, you are not valuing yourself, your skills, your experience, and your abilities highly enough.



LOTR soundtrack website ~ June 2010 : ROTK Lyrics Update!
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(This post was edited by Magpie on Oct 24 2010, 8:18pm)


Patty
Immortal


Oct 24 2010, 8:44pm

Post #33 of 83 (456 views)
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Angry Dwarf, I think I'm inclined to agree with you. [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially since they brought this action after all The Hobbit had already endured. I don't know the truth of this, but I also read that the action wasn't brought against another production ( I believe it was Spartacus) because one of the union leaders is married to its director.

Permanent address: Into the West

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Hellmistress
Lorien


Oct 24 2010, 8:49pm

Post #34 of 83 (468 views)
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They went after THE HOBBIT ... [In reply to] Can't Post

  

Quote
If the unions had gone after one of the bad productions you would have heard us all cheering from the sidelines but to go after Peter??? the guy who has lifted the standards of employment in NZ, doing more for us than the unions ever have. The guy who has invested heavily in our film making infrastructure. It just makes no sense.

... precisely because it is what it is - a potentially phenomenal blockbuster. No point going after a small project. No-one other than the producers and people involved will care. This uproar hit TH right in the nethers, and very publicly too, which turned the eyes of the world right on it - like the Eye on Frodo. It got everyone's attention instantly. And don't forget, as has already been mentioned, that Peter wasn't slow in making a very public stink about the hoo-hah over his own contract for LotR - and he was very willing to sacrifice TH and all of the jobs it entailed on that sacrificial altar - to make sure he got his money.

So hopefully the result, although it has been very painful to see and not pretty at the best of times, will mean that NZ has a thriving, competitive and ethical film industry that pays all of its artisans decently and treats them with respect.

HM


Magpie
Immortal


Oct 24 2010, 8:55pm

Post #35 of 83 (424 views)
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I think you've hit reply to the wrong post [In reply to] Can't Post

The post of yours ("They went after THE HOBBIT") is shown as a reply to my post but since you quote material not in my post, I don't think you meant it as a reply to my post. You probably hit reply to the last post show in flat mode which is not advised unless one is actually replying to that post.

The material you quoted is from cameragod in this message entitled, "There are some bad employers".

When one views in threaded mode, these things matter. :-)


LOTR soundtrack website ~ June 2010 : ROTK Lyrics Update!
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Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Oct 24 2010, 9:05pm

Post #36 of 83 (446 views)
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Amen Hellmistress [In reply to] Can't Post

This issue is about FAR more than just seeing one of our favorite books come to life. That is a petty need compared to the issues at stake here. This dispute uncovers something that is very wrong in New Zealand - its labor laws. I want this film to stay in NZ as well. However, if the NZ government does not make some fundamental changes to the legal parameters regarding the treatment of workers, then the project should either be put on hold until it does, or move elsewhere.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 24 2010, 9:06pm

Post #37 of 83 (441 views)
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I take it you mean our labour laws in regards to films [In reply to] Can't Post

rather than our labour laws in general.


In Reply To
In order to ensure stability, the NZ government needs to quickly adapt its labor laws to meet 21st century democratic standards.



I'm am trying to not be offended by your tone, but it's difficult to not feel like NZ is being talked down to here.

I trust that as a result of this Hobbit brouhaha the industry, unions and Government will work together to find a solution that will work in the New Zealand market and which isn't a quick-fix in sole response to The Hobbit. Our Government ministers, filmmakers and unions don't want the industry hobbled. They will find a way because one *has* to be found. Maybe the solution won't match what happens in other countries; maybe it will be better.

Let's see what they come up with.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Oct 24 2010, 9:07pm

Post #38 of 83 (411 views)
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I don't think it can afford to be put on hold any longer. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Oct 24 2010, 9:11pm

Post #39 of 83 (429 views)
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It was a threat from Warner Bros, not Phillipa [In reply to] Can't Post

The studio stated that they were looking to move abroad due to the atmosphere in NZ (basically, a fear that the unions would pull this blacklisting stuff during the filming), and now NZ is fighting for the films to stay.

Considering what insults Helen Kelly threw at PJ and Richard Taylor, I'm not surprised that they are as cordial as they are. And considering that the man who started this whole fiasco is not even part of the country, and that the unions in the country did not do the right thing like the Irish unions did, and immediately went to black-listing, can you blame people for being angry with these unions?

It does sound like the labor laws in the film industry need to be looked at, but the way it went about was wrong, and they hurt their cause more than aided it. Now that Spada and NZ Equity are looking at this Pink Book, perhaps something can be done. But going at one producer of two films /= reforming the whole industry.

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Flagg
Tol Eressea


Oct 24 2010, 9:24pm

Post #40 of 83 (428 views)
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Another way to 'ensure stability' [In reply to] Can't Post

'In order to ensure stability, the NZ government needs to quickly adapt its labor laws to meet 21st century democratic standards.'

Another way to ensure stability is to go the other direction and take the power out of the hands of the blasted incompetent unions that are responsible for this fiasco. It looks to me like the country's labour situation would be quite 'stabilised' if these unions were stripped of their power to mess things up, which seems to be their main modus operandi. People like Peter Jackson would still continue to offer fair pay and treatment to their their workers, independent of union or governmental interference, as he did during the production of The Lord of the Rings. You can sensationalise the issue by proclaiming this to be 'severely regressive', a 'horrible legacy' and so on, but in truth this comes down to no more than a matter of differing perspective (conservatism versus liberalism). You may think that giving more and more power to trade unions will make the world a wonderful place, but bear in mind that for every person who shares your beliefs there is another who disagrees with you.



Gildor
Rivendell

Oct 24 2010, 9:44pm

Post #41 of 83 (402 views)
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good points all of them [In reply to] Can't Post

I always try to be short and concise but I appreciate when someone writes a lot but remains cogent, especially when they support my comments. Smile


farmer maggot
Rivendell

Oct 24 2010, 9:48pm

Post #42 of 83 (414 views)
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One major difference here I think [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ was infact seeking redress for illegal actions already taken in breach of an agreed contact - seeking payments rightfully owed (and to be largely plowed back into the development of the NZ film industry I believe). It was New Line who decided that they could not work with PJ to produce The Hobbit while this situation exeisted - a rather obvious conclusion! Incidentally Im also believe his success in this led the way for others to succeed in gaining justb payments.

This Union (or I actually believe just some specific individuals since the catastrophically stupid boycotting action was never put to even a limited vote) was evidently trying to force a single employer, PJ, into breaking NZ law (as they have finally admitted they knew) to form an illegal agreement that WB could not possibly accept or support.

Quite obviously this was designed to engineer a potentially major economic disaster for NZ and ramp up political pressure on the NZ government to achieve political changes to employment law that an organisation (NZAE) repesenting less than ten percent of its eligible industry membership and with negligible public support could not hope to achieve.

The real tragedy here is that the evident incompetence, dishonestly, oppportunism and greed for power of the responsible individuals has resulted in a very public display of a tiny number of (apparently) self-interested people putting the livelehoods and wellbeing of several thousand of others at real risk. With apparently no concern at all. The resulting inevitable backlash will bury any hope of addressing properly any 'legitimate concerns' that might underly the situation and rebound on the whole field of union representation in NZ. The members and leaders of other reputable and competent Unions in NZ must be wondering what they have done to deserve this level of sabotage. If NZ does lose The Hobbit in any real way the backlash may go off the scale!

The graetest sadness for me is that the brilliance and spirit of JRR's LOTR, reflected through into the staggering achievement of the film trilogy, has driven the huge global enthusiasm to see The Hobbit films produced against all odds. This led directly to The Hobbit being targetted as a tool for the tawdry tactics we have seen with no direct justification to be singled out at all. What does that say about human nature? I cannot think of anything less inkeeping with the spirit and ethics of the good professor as seen in his works - it does appear that the black spirit of Sauron lives still!

Any 'horrible legacy' will rest squarely on the shoulders of those who chose to seek their ends through coersion, illegitimate action and monumental blackmail rather than proper representation, legitimate politics and perasuasion.


Hellmistress
Lorien


Oct 24 2010, 9:53pm

Post #43 of 83 (393 views)
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OOPS ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... sorry. Hit the wrong button.

HM


In Reply To
The post of yours ("They went after THE HOBBIT") is shown as a reply to my post but since you quote material not in my post, I don't think you meant it as a reply to my post. You probably hit reply to the last post show in flat mode which is not advised unless one is actually replying to that post.

The material you quoted is from cameragod in this message entitled, "There are some bad employers".

When one views in threaded mode, these things matter. :-)



Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 24 2010, 10:05pm

Post #44 of 83 (367 views)
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Well said, Ataahua [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's very presumptive of someone who does not live in another country and/or does not work in a specific industry in that country, to pass blanket (or even piecemeal) judgments on:

1) whether there is a problem

2) what, exactly the problem is and,

3) how to fix it.

We've been lucky enough to have heard opinions from Kiwis on both sides of the issues, and it's only human to lean towards one side or another. But, clearly, none of us has enough facts just from the posts and articles we've read to pass judgments on the entire New Zeeland culture, political landscape or film industry, or to impose our own idea of right and wrong, on Kiwis and Kiwi actors.

So, let's go ahead and voice our own opinions, but steer clear of patently telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do - especially if we don't live and/or act, in NZ.

I'm immensely lucky to be married to a Kiwi, and have some dear friends that are Kiwi's Wink. One thing I've realized is that, while I have a lot in common with them, it *is* a different culture and I need to respect that. They're not just Americans, or Europeans, or Canadians with cool accents. Laugh Another thing I've realized is that New Zealand, and Kiwis, have done just fine so far without the rest of the world telling them what to do. Not unlike Gandalf, Kiwis will do exactly what they mean to do, exactly when they mean to do it. (And I love them for it).Smile


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

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dormouse
Half-elven

Oct 24 2010, 10:13pm

Post #45 of 83 (387 views)
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I'm sorry, but as no one else picked this up.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf's mother, in one reply you say this to another poster

Quote

You're not helping your cause by lashing out as nastily as Fran and Philippa did on that recent interview.


Now this

Quote
I think the almost brutal nastiness coming from PJ, Fran and Philippa is enhancing the impression that they are not particularly concerned about protecting the people that work on their films, and that they just want to do their film, make NZ alot of money, and leave it at that.


Forgive me, but I don't think you're helping your cause either with that sort of language. I have to say that I've heard and read all the various interviews in an attempt to understand what on earth is going on and I've heard nothing from Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh or Philippa Boyens that equated to "almost brutal nastiness". I saw anger, frustration and sheer exhaustion and I don't think it helps for any of us to use inflammatory language about a dispute which almost all of us here are watching from the outside.

Besides, in attacking Peter Jackson et al with such gusto I think you're missing a vital point. Nobody on the union side has complained about the agreement actors are being offered for the Hobbit and all agree that he is more than fair: in fact, the union launched its attack before even knowing what the conditions would be, since no contracts had then been drawn up. The unions are using The Hobbit as leverage to change New Zealand employment practice - even their leader has said as much.


Hellmistress
Lorien


Oct 24 2010, 10:18pm

Post #46 of 83 (355 views)
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I'm sure ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... no insult was meant - I certainly didn't think the tone was condescending, but that's me. I'm not from New Zealand. But I have to say I agree with those comments. ALL nations have their Achilles Heel, and I think this just happens to be one of New Zealand's. Heck, I'm British and you should try being on the wrong end of the flack that comes our way every day.

It's not a criticism I don't think, but simply recognition of a problem that needs fixing. And may I respectfully expand on one of your own comments - that hopefully a solution will be found that not only works in the New Zealand market, but more importantly, one that will work for New Zealand internationally ... an essential fix if New Zealand's burgeoning film industry is to have a solid and permanent base in the world of international film making and marketing. New Zealand can't afford to be precious about itself (If you'll excuse the pun) when it comes to dealing with competition globally in one of the toughest industries in the world, especially in today's economic climate. In fact, New Zealand has to out-performance itself if it wishes to compete, and that includes sorting out barriers when it comes to hiring the cast and crew without whom you're screwed. Not only will it benefit actors and artisans who wish to remain in New Zealand to work, but it will help to open more doors for those who wish to work elsewhere.

Saying 'We're New Zealand and we made the Lord of the Rings' isn't going to last forever, and sooner or later the reality of fighting for room in a shrinking market is going to strike home. We in Britain tried that, and it blew up in our face. It's a lot easier getting it right first time around when you get the chance than having to go back and try and reinvent yourself. Yes, it should be thought through properly and thoroughly, and done right ... but in the end it will have to be done. And I have to say that, terrible though it has been (and still is, at the moment), the fundamental need for change won't go away. It will continue to bite until it is sorted.

HM


In Reply To
rather than our labour laws in general.


In Reply To
In order to ensure stability, the NZ government needs to quickly adapt its labor laws to meet 21st century democratic standards.



I'm am trying to not be offended by your tone, but it's difficult to not feel like NZ is being talked down to here.

I trust that as a result of this Hobbit brouhaha the industry, unions and Government will work together to find a solution that will work in the New Zealand market and which isn't a quick-fix in sole response to The Hobbit. Our Government ministers, filmmakers and unions don't want the industry hobbled. They will find a way because one *has* to be found. Maybe the solution won't match what happens in other countries; maybe it will be better.

Let's see what they come up with.



Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Oct 24 2010, 10:40pm

Post #47 of 83 (356 views)
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It cannot be expected that people will continue to altruistically treat employees well into the future [In reply to] Can't Post

As I have said, the MEAA and NZAE committed a tactical blunder. I believe that.

However, if indeed this "blunder" results in New Zealand looking at its labor laws, realizing that burgeoning industries, and the various interests and personalities that come with that, are not all going to voluntarily treat their workers fairly, this will ultimately have had a net positive effect.

And perhaps that is what NZAE was doing. Taking on a blockbuster project in order to highlight the inequities in NZ law.

If so, I believe a greater good was served. Us fans of Tolkien's work can, (or at least I can) understand that our selfish desires to see a beloved book on screen is less important than the lives and livelihoods of working people.


Finrod
Rohan


Oct 24 2010, 10:41pm

Post #48 of 83 (356 views)
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They Walk Amongst Us, Unseen [In reply to] Can't Post


Never realized Helen Kelly was one of the Istari.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151
while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311




Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 24 2010, 10:59pm

Post #49 of 83 (324 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
hopefully a solution will be found that not only works in the New Zealand market, but more importantly, one that will work for New Zealand internationally ...



given that the NZ market works on the international stage, yes, that is a given.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


VoronwŽ_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 24 2010, 11:15pm

Post #50 of 83 (333 views)
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What you seem to be missing [In reply to] Can't Post

is that it is the working people of New Zealand's film industry that are most being negatively impacted by the unions' fiasco. That is what is really so sad about this situation. Personally, I don't really care whether the films are made in NZ or some place else; I actually think that it is possible that a better product could come from filming in Ireland or elsewhere. But I do feel very bad for the people in New Zealand who potentially are going to lose their livelihoods. And they - the working people - are blaming the unions, not PJ or the studio. That is what distinguishes this from most labor disputes.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

www.arda-reconstructed.com

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