|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2010, 12:14am
Post #51 of 202
(661 views)
Shortcut
|
|
He didn't say that was his opinion
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
he said that "There are quite a few LOTR fans" who think that way
anyway, there is no right and wrong in regards to PJ's talent, it is a matter of opinion
You can't say that someone doesn't feel the way that they say they do, they have a right to have their own opinion
The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out
You can only come to the morning through the shadows
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Oct 17 2010, 12:24am
Post #52 of 202
(669 views)
Shortcut
|
|
On rereading: You ar right he did not say it was his opinion.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
and I agree with you that all are entitled to their opinion regarding personal tastes. But I personally believe that they should be willing to explain and defend their explanations. This is the Socratic method of teaching and learning. Everyone learns and the world becomes a better and more enlightened place.
Kangi Ska Resident Cynic
The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
|
|
|
Flagg
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2010, 12:27am
Post #53 of 202
(718 views)
Shortcut
|
I only directed my post towards him because he seems to be the only 'representative' of the über-purists in this discussion. My post was really meant for the über-purist community in general.
I disagree with your belief that talent is a matter of opinion. Sure, how an individual feels may affect how much they themselves enjoy a person's work, but that has no influence on how talented the creator is. Some people are simply more talented than others.
For example, JRR Tolkien had more talent than Stephenie Meyer does. This is a fact and anyone who disagrees with it is wrong. 
|
|
|
Tim
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2010, 12:29am
Post #54 of 202
(655 views)
Shortcut
|
Seriously yes that's the point of a discussion board - to discuss. Why throw out an opinion if you're not going to explain it? Not to mention it's handy for spotting trolls - who seldom explain anything and just throw verbal bombs - NOT that I'm calling anyone here a troll.
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Oct 17 2010, 12:35am
Post #55 of 202
(671 views)
Shortcut
|
A comparison is possible and can be a good thing especially in coming to an understanding of what makes one book or movie superior to another. A simple statement of personal taste without comparison is not valid criticism. So I will end by asking you what you mean by creative and how it applies to the situation.
Kangi Ska Resident Cynic
The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Oct 17 2010, 12:35am)
|
|
|
Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2010, 12:39am
Post #56 of 202
(645 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I think modern art is a fine example
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Two people may look at a painting which is, say simply royal blue with a couple white lines. One may say that it is brilliant, innovative and has great motion and energy. The other may say that his two year old son could have painted that. They are looking at the same painting, but have widely different views of the talent of the artist. Maybe the disagreement regarding PJ's talent is like this.
Perhaps instead there really is no disagreement at all. Perhaps the PJ fans are talking about his talent in creating an exciting, well-balanced movie, while the others are talking about his talent in adapting books precisely.
Or maybe it's a bit of each situation
and if we are going after the Socratic method: how who you define talent? 
The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out
You can only come to the morning through the shadows
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Oct 17 2010, 12:40am
Post #57 of 202
(655 views)
Shortcut
|
In primary school. You know "Three Billy Goats Gruff"...the troll under the bridge and all that. It was fifty five years ago. I did not throw bombs.
Kangi Ska Resident Cynic
The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Oct 17 2010, 12:44am
Post #58 of 202
(650 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"Tallent is the ability to make finely crafted things." Joesef Fox.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The greatest teacher I ever experienced. This was one of the first questions in his discussion of aesthetics.
Now pick apart the answer and we will learn together.
Kangi Ska Resident Cynic
The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
|
|
|
Tim
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2010, 12:50am
Post #59 of 202
(639 views)
Shortcut
|
"I'm not a troll but I play one on TV"
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
|
|
|
Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2010, 12:51am
Post #60 of 202
(637 views)
Shortcut
|
what would you say is the quality that a finely crafted thing has that makes in a finely crafted thing?
And what about those who have a talent for mathematics? Is an elegant solution a finely crafted thing? What about the ability to find the answer quickly?
What about a talent for reading quickly? What is the finely crafted thing in that case?
I would like to point out that you are very talented at distracting me from my physics homework 
The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out
You can only come to the morning through the shadows
|
|
|
Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2010, 1:00am
Post #61 of 202
(633 views)
Shortcut
|
as for the JRRT / Stephenie Meyer comparison
I would not disagree that as an overall writer JRRT is by far superior
However I would like to point out that depending on how you define the aim, the success varies
Stephenie Meyer is very talented at writing an addicting read, one which is hard to put down, even if you don't want to like the story (speaking from experience). Now if we are talking about deeper meaning, and don't think anyone would disagree when I say Meyer did not accomplish that.
Okay, I lied, I had two more comments.
I want to be careful to point out that I am not advocating an "everything is opinion, there is no truth" stance, nor do I have the truth, I just have my current opinion about what the truth might be
The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out
You can only come to the morning through the shadows
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Oct 17 2010, 1:05am
Post #62 of 202
(640 views)
Shortcut
|
A fine made thing can be material or intellectual. Craft is the process of making.
Ability (for the sake of discussion) can be limited to ones innate capacity to learn.
Skill is the outcome of learning through the utilization of ability.
Wisdom is the understanding of the limits of ones ability and skill.
If you accept these definitions then we have started to build the arena for our discussion.
Kangi Ska Resident Cynic
The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Oct 17 2010, 1:09am)
|
|
|
Tim
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2010, 1:11am
Post #63 of 202
(624 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Resident Skeptic pfaw - more like Resident Socratic Zen Master //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
|
|
|
Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2010, 1:18am
Post #64 of 202
(710 views)
Shortcut
|
|
but can't one improve their ability
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
by learning how to learn better? We may start off with an innate capacity to learn, but doesn't our capacity to learn improve over time? Surely you are better at learning after graduating from high-school than you were in elementary school, and even better once you've graduated from college. If this is true, then surely our ability has improved, if ability is the capacity to learn. An author's ability to write is not the same when they are two and don't yet know how the world works, than when they have built a life for themselves, even if they already knew how to physically write letters.
The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out
You can only come to the morning through the shadows
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Oct 17 2010, 1:21am
Post #65 of 202
(622 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Just a poor reflection of my Master Mr. Fox.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The last thing he told me was that his lawn was going to kill him.
They found him dead on his riding lawnmower 4 months later.
Kangi Ska Resident Cynic
The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
|
|
|
Ruijor
Rohan
Oct 17 2010, 1:22am
Post #66 of 202
(632 views)
Shortcut
|
I'd say its like comparing Tolkien to Twilight, to be honest. Say what you will about how good it was, but HP was at the very least creative.
Maybe it was but to my standards you can compare Tolkien to J.K.Rowling in terms of greatness, sorry. It´s just like comparing Avatar, a recycled script put together with state of the art technology for the sole purpose of visual delightment, to the entricate mithology created almost from scratch almost one hundred years ago.
For me Harry Potter emulates a little too much Tolkien´s Universe, probably one of the reasons of my dislike, added to the fact that it is more child- oriented; Dumbledore screams Gandalf everyday of the week and Potter is like an alternative Frodo Baggins.
I would like to state that this is only my opinion on this subject not universal law so with that said...
|
|
|
Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2010, 1:25am
Post #67 of 202
(633 views)
Shortcut
|
as for the JRRT / Stephenie Meyer comparison
I would not disagree that as an overall writer JRRT is by far superior
However I would like to point out that depending on how you define the aim, the success varies
Stephenie Meyer is very talented at writing an addicting read, one which is hard to put down, even if you don't want to like the story (speaking from experience). Now if we are talking about deeper meaning, and don't think anyone would disagree when I say Meyer did not accomplish that.
Okay, I lied, I had two more comments.
I want to be careful to point out that I am not advocating an "everything is opinion, there is no truth" stance, nor do I have the truth, I just have my current opinion about what the truth might be
Warning: strong opinion ahead
Are you sure you are not mistaking Meyer for Rowling? XD Rowling is addicting- Meyer is a talentless hack who happens to have an agent who is a brilliant businessperson who knew that many female teenagers don't give a darn about decent characterization and only need their hormone fix.
This comes from the personal experience as well.
/end strong opinion
As for "there is no truth, only opinion" in art, the majority of it *is* opinion, and very, very few artists can be considered "talented" without debate. Usually these guys have been around for 100s of years. Even artists who are a couple hundred years in the making don't get off the opinion hook (I'm looking at you, Joseph Conrad...)
And, of course, people who are talented can make some horrible pieces of art, or have their shortcomings elsewhere. I am still of the opinion that, while Tolkien was incredibly talented, his shortcoming was writing romance. Thank goodness there is not too much of it.
My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography
NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.
|
|
|
grammaboodawg
Immortal
Oct 17 2010, 1:25am
Post #68 of 202
(647 views)
Shortcut
|
when LotR was coming out and it was being compared to Harry Potter... that they were some sort of competition. For me, it was apples and oranges. This is, too. Middle-earth and LotR have been so firmly planted for me that even if these 2 Hobbit films are done in 3D (which I really don't want them to be), there's no danger of me seeing them as following Avatar in production styles. If anything, Avatar gleaned a few tricks from LotR ;)
 
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
Unused Scenes
|
|
|
Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2010, 1:34am
Post #69 of 202
(612 views)
Shortcut
|
my friend forced me to read the Twilight series.
I went into it saying "I'm not going to like it," but was sorely disappointed with myself when I couldn't put it down. However, when I got to the end of each book I closed the cover and said to myself "what was the point of that? and what in the world made it so addicting." Of course then I'd give my friend back her book, she'd be ecstatic that I actually took the time to read it, hand me the next one, and it would happen all over again.
and yes, everyone has their blunders. Actually I think that if we don't see a talented person as not having any blunders we are probably not paying enough attention and/or are wearing rose colored glasses
The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out
You can only come to the morning through the shadows
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Oct 17 2010, 1:35am
Post #70 of 202
(616 views)
Shortcut
|
|
So do you want to dispute the definition of ability that I offered?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Capacity and ability are not the same thing. Skill comes from learning to better utilize ones ability. Current studies indicate that the individual's process of learning (the apprehension and understanding of experience) actually slows as one matures. Babies learn an entire language, how to control a human body, what behavior is acceptable and how to get what they want and need in an astonishingly short time. I am fully ripened. I am lucky to learn a few new things each day (Old Dogs you know.)
Skill and wisdom comes from learning and applying the knowledge gained.
Kangi Ska Resident Cynic
The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
|
|
|
Ruijor
Rohan
Oct 17 2010, 1:36am
Post #71 of 202
(622 views)
Shortcut
|
My thoughts exactly...
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Oct 17 2010, 1:45am
Post #72 of 202
(612 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Tolkien did not write for a market
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In today's publishing world only a miracle would get them into print annd even back then it was nearly a miracle as it was. Publishers today demand that writers write to a market. In the old days they called this hack writing. Today there are genre with very specific rules for inclusion. This would have been a big problem for the Professor.
Kangi Ska Resident Cynic
The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
|
|
|
Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2010, 1:50am
Post #73 of 202
(602 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I was trying to keep ability and capacity separate
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
with their own definitions. That being said, as one improves, so does the other, at least if we work off your definition of ability as the capacity to learn.
While your overall capacity to learn surely is tremendous as an infant, your specific capacity to learn how to compose good literature is not. For this you must first develop an appropriate knowledge base to work off of. You are not going to learn to write good stories if you do not first know how to write, have a developed vocabulary and sense of grammar, knowledge of what is and is not possible, etc.
To quote Tolkien:
For creative Fantasy is founded upon the hard recognition that things are so in the world as it appears under the sun; on recognition of fact, but not slavery to it
-- On Fairy Stories
We must first have a basis of knowledge and experience to create something for which people would say we have talent, at least when it comes to writing
The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out
You can only come to the morning through the shadows
|
|
|
Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2010, 1:56am
Post #74 of 202
(593 views)
Shortcut
|
Tolkien did not exactly have a talent for giving the publisher what they asked for. "Sequel to The Hobbit," or sweeping epic thick with complicated themes, same thing, right?
Just saying that Stephanie Meyer must have a talent for something if she can get so many people to read her books, even if for many it is only out of curiosity for what so many people are talking bout
The wide world is all about you:
you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out
You can only come to the morning through the shadows
|
|
|
Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Oct 17 2010, 1:56am
Post #75 of 202
(605 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I have to retire for the night.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Three AM comes far too soon. I will pick this up tomorrow. Now back to those physics.
Kangi Ska Resident Cynic
The Hobbit is here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
|
|
|
|
|
