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entmaiden
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Sep 27 2010, 10:21pm
Post #126 of 330
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The independent contractor rules in the US are based on the payroll withholding rules - employees have taxes withheld and independent contractors do not. Independent contractors are required to pay the full load of Social Security taxes, while employees only pay half - the employers pay the other half. Employees are covered in most states by unemployment, the taxes for which are paid by the employers. Independent contractors can not file for unemployment in most states in the US. NZ does not have the Social Security system that the US has, so the concept of paying FICA taxes will not be the same.
All those rules come from the US tax treatment of employees vs. independent contractors. NZ law is bound to be different, and is likely to be less advanced than US law. Outside the US, the chief source of income for governments is the VAT, not the income or employment taxes. The US government is primarily funded by the income tax, which includes employment taxes, so the laws on treatment of workers is very complex. The NZ tax system, if it is similar to many European systems, is complex in the VAT areas, but not so much in the income tax areas.
I'm going into all this detail to point out that actors and film crews in the US are subject to different rules and it's difficult to extrapolate those rules to NZ. I agree fully with your points about the transition that NZ must be experiencing, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the rule about independent contractors is primarily for the benefit of the film industry.
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Altaira
Superuser
Sep 27 2010, 10:21pm
Post #127 of 330
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She posted some good links yesterday that clarify. And, as I replied to her after reading some of them, it doesn' t matter what 'words' are used in a contract (contractor or employee). What matters is history, industry practice and the interpretation of the courts.
So, if actors are considered contractors, PJ cannot legally bargain with them, or with a union as their representative, collectively. He can offer individual contracts, which is the norm in the industry based on Iolite's comments above.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Sep 27 2010, 10:24pm
Post #128 of 330
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Well thanks for being honest about your perspective :-)
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I would never expect any company to hire a non union actor and pay them a union salary, it's almost laughable.
I am by no means an expert so take this for what it's worth. I can immediately imagine a way that non union gets paid as much as union. If you consider union dues and figure in the difference just that alone can be a factor. This is all hypothetical so don't jump on my figures.  Say union dues are $700 a year. Union member makes $4000 for the year off the production. If no other productions figure in for the year (more likely in a big production) - that's actually $3300 take-home. So if PJ pays non-union peeps $3300 it's the same. PJ saves $700.
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Sep 27 2010, 10:28pm
Post #129 of 330
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Thanks for your review entmaiden
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I haven't had a chance to see it yet (I don't think it's released here yet) but it has caught my attention.
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Sep 27 2010, 10:29pm
Post #130 of 330
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I hope you're right and that this is "much ado about nothing".
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King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
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entmaiden
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Sep 27 2010, 10:31pm
Post #131 of 330
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In the US, it's a facts and circumstances test
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and there are no specific professions that are defined as independent contractors. The determination depends on the degree of control exerted over the contractor/employee, the number of jobs held by the contractor/employee, the ownership of the work product, and the term of the agreement, among other factors.
It's possible that NZ has taken a different route and unilaterally declared certain professions or types of work as being performed by independent contractors. I think the more likely explanation is the articles were short-cutting the specifics by saying that actors are independent contractors by law. Most actors turn out to be independent contractors by applying a facts and circumstances test, so the statements are giving the usual custom the force of law.
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Sep 27 2010, 10:37pm)
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entmaiden
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Sep 27 2010, 10:32pm
Post #132 of 330
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I saw it at a film festival in the US, but
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I don't think it's had wide release yet. I have a couple other objections to it, but don't want to give away a large part of the story, so I'll wait until you've seen it.
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Sep 27 2010, 10:36pm
Post #133 of 330
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Oh I don't doubt squire's right
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I had just missed that point. Time to go back to those older posts and see what I missed.
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Sep 27 2010, 10:41pm
Post #134 of 330
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Sorry, I was just going by what you said here:
We already have a framework in place called the "Pink Book" which has been successfully used for years to provide a non-binding set of best practices for actors contracts/work conditions and a similar one (called the "Blue Book") for crew members.
The problem is, it's either binding, that is to say legally enforceable, mutually agreed upon and satisfactory to both the company and the workers or it is not.
Companies have been offering these sort-of-contracts, bills of workers' rights (a company named Magna calles theirs the Magna Charter) and best practices thingies for a while now. These so-called contracts are often little better than work standards that already exist (but that few workers know about) and are not, by design, enforceable. Yes people can make noise and ask for better treatment but it remains at management's discretion whether to honour their side of the agreement. There is no recourse if management chooses to resort to "worst practices."
As for wages being the main carrot to attact film investment. Well yes this is a common strategy because it is easier for investors to see if the people doing the actual work are willing to take less, then it leaves more for them.
However, the experience in the Toronto film industry shows that even a willingness to work for less does not guarantee a sustainable industry, even less a healthy lifestyle for people working in it.
The funny thing is some Canadian entertainment unions agreed to a lower wage scale for new workers and certain classifications as well as relaxed on some prior tenents including allowing even lower paid non-unionized workers on union films. The results were: the work that came to town helped no one pay their bills for very long; a safety violation (on the set of Jumpers) got someone who was exhibiting that can-do spirit unions are supposed to be against killed; and the Canadian dollar rose to par with the US dollar chasing all but the most expensive, exclusive productions away anyway. Of those who chose Toronto over Vancouver or Montreal, there were few.
All this is to say it is great you have a shot at working on a big production. But agreeing to work for less just to keep productions coming to NZ is no guarantee that they will. This may be a case of needing to make hay while the sun shines.
All the best to you
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Sep 27 2010, 10:42pm
Post #135 of 330
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Sadly, I'm not convinced that it is
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I have been an optimist about these films from the beginning, but I am more concerned about this issue and it's impact on the films than I have been about all of the past issues, including the Tolkien Estate lawsuit, MGM's financial problems, and GdT's departure.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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Kangi Ska
Half-elven
Sep 27 2010, 10:43pm
Post #136 of 330
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A team of international labor lawyers will straighten this out.
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And that should sideline the issue for years.
Kangi Ska
Make the Hobbit Happen Now!
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Sep 27 2010, 10:50pm
Post #137 of 330
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Karl Urban backs the union's stance
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"[The] NZ Actors Equity has my full support in their struggle to gain a higher standard of contract for New Zealand performers," Urban said.
"If he [Jackson] has the opportunity to help improve the working conditions for actors in New Zealand, to bring us more in line with our colleagues in Australia, the UK, and the US, I hope this is a dialogue which he would engage in, and an endeavour which he would support."
Full story here.
I hope the main players can soon leave the inflammatory language behind and start talking to each other. This is beginning to sound a bit schoolyard, with emotions heating up without progress being made.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Altaira
Superuser
Sep 27 2010, 11:13pm
Post #139 of 330
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Link to one of my comments to Ataahua.
It seems there are 'landmark' decisions on both sides. Without knowing the exact details of each case, it's impossible to draw any further conclusions except, maybe that the FIA quoted the decision that seems to tilt things in their favor without mentioning others that seem to contradict their point.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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Elladan
Rivendell
Sep 27 2010, 11:17pm
Post #140 of 330
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Jackson, who has called the union an "Aussie bully", said actors were independent contractors, which made union representation illegal under New Zealand law. MEAA disagrees, citing a 2005 landmark decision that ruled a Lord of the Rings model maker was an employee, not a contractor. The Supreme Court awarded the worker costs of $38,000.
Count me confused.
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Sep 27 2010, 11:20pm
Post #141 of 330
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Indeed I was thinking about the details - the devil Himself resides in them. I agree it would seem on the surface there are conflicting legal precedents. I would like to see each actor that throws down on one side or another comment on this particular bit - it seems a rather important bit.   No point in calling on PJ to weigh in, Mr. Urban, if he legally can't. 
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
(This post was edited by Tim on Sep 27 2010, 11:21pm)
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Sep 27 2010, 11:22pm
Post #142 of 330
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One might also need to consider the jurisdiction of the court that decided the case.
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In the US, different courts have wider jurisdiction and can trump the results of other courts, and we have the Supreme Court, which trumps all courts. NZ might have a similar system, so the findings of one court might override the findings of another court. Of course, the timing of the decisions could have an impact - a more recent decision would carry more weight.
Finally, we would have to review the facts of each case to see if they are on point. Some cases are very narrowly decided and it's difficult to apply them to broader situations.
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Sep 27 2010, 11:27pm
Post #143 of 330
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How is it totally different?
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Sep 27 2010, 11:29pm
Post #144 of 330
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Indeed our land is a Lawyer's Paradise.
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But good points and all true and all going back to the details, details.
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Sep 27 2010, 11:49pm
Post #146 of 330
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I require an expert NZ lawyer panel post haste!
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Compensation of course will be in Twinkies, copies of Mad Magazine, and all the Gatorade they can drink.
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
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Iolite
The Shire
Sep 28 2010, 12:13am
Post #147 of 330
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Recommended guidelines only...
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Sorry, I may not have explained myself very clearly? I should make it clear that I'm certainly no expert in this area having only worked in the industry on a handful of jobs so far and only as a crew member, not as an actor. 
The Pink Book is the Code of Practice for the Engagement of Cast in the NZ Screen Production Industry. The latest edition was from 2005 and was ratified and jointly agreed on by SPADA (Screen Production and Development Association, who represent production companies and producers interests), New Zealand Actors’ Agents' Guild, Actors’ Agents’ Association of New Zealand and New Zealand Actors’ Equity.
The Blue Book is the Code of Practice for the Engagement of Crew in the NZ Screen Production Industry. The latest edition was from 2004 and has been produced by SPADA and the NZ Film & Video Technicians’ guild to provide a reference document of best-practice processes for the engagement of crew in the New Zealand screen production industry.
My understanding is that the Blue and Pink books provide a recommended set of guidelines that producers can choose to incorporate (or not) in the contracts that they present to the cast or crew member. The guidelines in the Pink and Blue Books are totally non-binding and unenforceable as far as I am aware, because in actual fact neither the producer nor the contractor is signing a copy of the Blue or Pink Book, nor have the Blue and Pink Books been passed as any sort of law. It is purely to help the producers know what the industry representative associations/guilds recommend should be included in the contracts they create and to help the contractor know what is the recommended industry practice, so that they can determine if the contract is in line with industry recommendations (but not binding laws). Actual contracts between producers and contractors could vary considerably from the recommendations oulined in the Blue and Pink Books. It is ultimately upto the producer and contractor to negotiate the terms of the work contract and decide whether or not they are happy to work under the conditions of the contract. There is no industry standard contract for every production. Each production company creates new contracts when they offer the jobs to cast or crew and the cast or crew have the choice to sign them or not. I would assume that if something that is written in the contract between the production company and the contractor is breached by either party, then the same legal avenues that apply to contractors in any NZ industry would apply. In other words a contractor could take the production company to court and vice versa if they felt there was a breach of contract.
However I believe most production companies do try to stick as closely as possible to the guidelines set forth in the Pink and Blue Books as a gesture of goodwill and respect towards the cast and crew. In return they expect cast and crew to do the best job that they can in the timeframe of the production and this is usually what happens. The New Zealand film industry is small, which means (as least for crew) your reputation is key. If you don't work hard you won't be employed again by that person. It is very much about who you know and whether or not they have worked with you before. If they remember you as someone who didn't do the work to their required standard or slacked off at every opportunity, then they won't give you anymore work. I can't be sure, but I assume it is much the same with actors. If they don't do the work or act like divas and are very difficult to work with, producers/directors/casting agents just won't employ them again. Rumours and gossip are rife on sets - even in my short time in the industry I have heard about a number of crew and actors who have a reputation for being hard to work with, constantly 'partying it up', or just plain lazy - these people don't get the work as a result. They are last on everyone's contact lists. Unions are not necessary to ensure that cast and crew work hard - the competition for work is currently enough to do that. Cast and crew also talk about producers and companies that might have ripped them off or been nasty to work for, such that those producers/companies gain a reputation and may find it hard to get the same quality of workers or work that other more favourably viewed producers/companies can. It works both ways and to some extent the industry is self-regulating. This is not to say that the industry couldn't benefit from unionisation or special laws - as stated in my earlier posts I just don't think now is a good time to be doing it. We need the Hobbit films and we need them ASAP. Wait until after they have been made to try to restructure the industry.
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 28 2010, 12:25am
Post #148 of 330
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And aside on the aside: NBC News
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(both morning & evening shows) are focusing intensely on that film and has changed their plaza into a forum/info center for "Education Nation" that's addressing the problems and successes of US education. We're rated 21 in global education. Gone from 1 to 21. NBC is really trying to open awareness and give this topic a forum. It should still be there when we go to NYC.
We will now return to our regularly scheduled program :)
 
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 28 2010, 12:34am
Post #149 of 330
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in awe of those of you who are independent. So much satisfaction and flexibility mixed with a bit of terror (at times). *bows to both and all who follow their nose*
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
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Altaira
Superuser
Sep 28 2010, 1:13am
Post #150 of 330
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** Update from the Home Page: Cate Blanchett and Sir Ian McKellen may decline Hobbit roles in pay row
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Editorial Comment: I think this is basically a re-hash of other stories. Nothing specific here, like quotes from either actors. -- Altaira
Seven global actors’ unions have instructed their members to walk away from roles in the two big-budget Lord of the Rings prequels because producers have allegedly refused to negotiate a deal guaranteeing wages and working conditions for performers in New Zealand. Unions in the US, Australia, the UK and Canada, acting under the umbrella of the International Federation of Actors (FIA), said Kiwi performers had “struggled on non-union contracts” for some years during filming of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. They said the contracts “provide no minimum guarantees of wages or working conditions”, no payment for future broadcasts and no cancellation payments. More..
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
TORn Calendar
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= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
