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squire
Half-elven
Aug 31 2010, 12:45am
Post #101 of 129
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That would be political anti-correctness creeping in. Sorry about that.
I thought about the British Empire itself as a possible referent to the phrases I quoted. But it didn't seem appropriate, especially when compared to the pre-industrial empires and the totalitarian states.
For one thing, Tolkien uses the word "slave" often to describe the orcs and other workers of Mordor. We may use slave in a metaphorical sense to characterize modern industrial workers trapped in their jobs, but Tolkien does not seem to be working with metaphors. He is trying to terrorize us, and I have always thought he means slaves in a literal sense. Many ancient empires really did use slavery to work their fields and drag their loads, and so I called them off - the Aztecs and American colonialists may not have been in Tolkien's mind, but I'm sure Rome and Byzantium and the Ottomans were. Meanwhile modern totalitarian states may enslave their prisoners literally (Desicon9 perceptively mentioned the gulag), but their working classes are not enslaved in the traditional or literal sense, despite western propaganda.
Another telling phrase found in the citations of my last post is Sauron's "long-planned war". Again, this does not ring true about Britain, for all its uses of force to take and guard its maritime empire. His Britannic Majesty's military forces supported his commercial enterprises with petty incursions in almost random and relatively inefficient fashion. "War" in the sense of Mordor's wars of conquest, war to acquire well-defended territories, war long planned and meditated, is more alien to British political and economic tradition. I see its appearance here as a comment not so much on the ancient empires (although it applies) as on the contemporary militarism of continental Europe's empires, both the monarchical and the totalitarian ones.
Thus slavery in Mordor's economy: reference to ancient absolute rule. Militarism in Mordor's economy: reference to modern absolute rule. Mix and match, what comes out in common is the principle of absolute rule = Sauron = the Ring.
Of course, I don't say that Tolkien did not see bits of Mordor at all in Britain - he did, such as in the filthy jargon of the working class (as you note) and the blasted hills of industrial waste in the Dead Lands, which draw as much from the industrial British midlands as they do the battlefields of the Great War.
squire online:
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 31 2010, 1:27am
Post #102 of 129
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there has never been an empire which has not felt its own actions justified, no matter how horrific. That's one way Tolkien did reflect reality, as the orcs consistently justify their own actions and see themselves as righteous victims.
I wasn't suggesting that Mordor resembled the British Empire as it actually was, except perhaps in its very worst parts. But I was suggesting that Mordor represents Tolkien's most nightmarish fears for England, which after all is his chief concern. It takes the worst of industrial England and worst of colonialism and projects it into an even more extreme version.
Thus in the Scouring Sam says what has happened to the Shire is in some ways worse than Mordor, and Frodo says it is Mordor. Oh, wait, I know you like quotes from the source:
‘This is worse than Mordor!’ said Sam. ‘Much worse in a way. It comes home to you, as they say; because it is home, and you remember it before it was all ruined.’
‘Yes, this is Mordor,’ said Frodo. ‘Just one of its works. Saruman was doing its work all the time, even when he thought he was working for himself. And the same with those that Saruman tricked, like Lotho.’
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Desicon9
Bree
Aug 31 2010, 1:38am
Post #103 of 129
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Did Tolkien ever think LOTR economics could be recovered?
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Following up Squire's suggestion of using Tolkien quotes where possible, do we have any quotes from Tolkien himself addressing the situation of economics in Middle-earth, especially regarding whether or not he himself felt that one could, from the LOTR narrative, work out a 'valid' appraisal of the economics of his imaginary societies? Maybe...
"I am not incapable of or unaware of economic thought; and I think as far as the 'mortals' go, Men, Hobbits, and Dwarfs, that the situations are so devised that economic likelihood is there and could be worked out: Gondor has sufficient 'townlands' and fiefs with a good water and road approach to provide for its population; and clearly has many industries though these are hardly alluded to. The Shire is placed in a water and mountain situation and a distance from the sea and a latitude that would give it a natural fertility, quite apart from the stated fact that it was a well-tended region when they took it over..." Letters Sept 25, 1954 to Naomi Mitcison, my emphasis.
For those who have Michael Drout's Tolkien Encyclopedia, (pp 83 - 85) Hal G.P. Colebatch gives us a "small print," in-depth overview of "Capitalism" in LOTR. What I chiefly miss in this article is an actual definition of the term "capitalism," something we are trying to work out in this discussion. I guess Colebatch takes it for granted that we have already established such a definition on our own. (The Colebatch article can be accessed online through the google book reviews, the book now sells for 160 dollars.)
Another quick Google book search under the rubrics "Hobbit economy," and "Lord of the Rings economies," reveals many published secondary works that treat communism, fascism, and capitalism as they are found in the histories of Middle-earth. It does then seem certain, at the least, that many authors do find sufficient economic data in LOTR to make it worth the time they have invested "working out" the details (as JRRT suggested). One such source, to which, alas I have no access, sounds very intriguing: "The Economy and Economic History of Gondor." Mallorn 51 (1994): 37-44.
Sigh, can't have all the books, but I can afford Jared Lobdell's A Tolkien Compass, which, so its advertising blurb tells me, has a chapter long interpretation/ analysis of "fascism" in LOTR's "Scouring of the Shire."
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 31 2010, 4:19am
Post #104 of 129
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Tolkien talks quite a bit about economics in The Hobbit.
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We learn about the trade relationship of Dale and the Kingdom Under the Mountain of old, and about the relationship of the Elven Kingdom and Laketown (and, by implication, Dorwinion, where the wine is strong) in the present. We learn about the contract between Bilbo and the dwarves. We learn about the self-sustaining economy of Beorn and his animal friends. We learn about the hostility between Great Eagles and the Woodsmen because the Eagles unashamedly steal sheep. We learn how the dwarves made their living in the Blue Mountains before the expedition back to the Lonely Mountain. We learn about the economy of the poor villagers the trolls prey upon, and the parasitic role of the trolls. We learn that the Shire conducts auctions. We don't learn a great deal about the economy of the goblins, but we do learn that they, like the trolls, prey upon travellers. We learn how Gollum survives at the bottom of a mountain (fish and goblins).
LotR starts out with such details in the Shire and Bree but, as I noted at the start of this discussion, after Bree moves on to higher matters (and perhaps on to a higher class of people who don't have to worry about mere money -- although that didn't stop the Elvenking or Thorin or Bard from arguing about money in The Hobbit). The Hobbit starts and ends as a commercial proposition, although at a crucial moment Bilbo willingly gives away his reward. LotR is never a commercial proposition, and even after the hobbits accomplish so much no one suggests rewarding them with mere money, as Bilbo was rewarded with two chests full of money.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Aug 31 2010, 1:34pm
Post #105 of 129
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Weak feudalism; more on money; Shire princes
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Re: Feudalism. Yes, there was the obligation of the vassals to send troops to their lord. That was the point of a post I made a month or two back when I couldn't understand why Denethor's vassals held back many of their troops to fight the Corsairs/Haradrim on the coast rather than send them to their overlord to defend Minas Tirith. Maybe feudalism grants exceptions to defend your own home, but my understanding was that the first duty was to the overlord, meaning they should have sent a far more substantial proportion of their armies when Denethor called for them. And by contrast, as several have pointed out, notice how Theoden could summon warriors from all over Rohan to fight in a foreign war, and they all knew they were leaving their homeland defended by a skeleton crew at best that was still prone to invastion (as happened with the army that invaded the Wold). By contrast, Denethor wasn't calling up troops for a foreign war, but domestic defense.
Just to add a few more money examples:
- Gloin tells Frodo in Rivendell that the Beornings provide for safe passage in their realm, but their tolls are steep. The implication is that they expected money/gold from the dwarves.
- The Rangers of Ithilien tell Frodo and Sam that though there was never friendship between Gondor and Harad, there was once trade. Maybe it was all barter, but seems doubtful. Hyarmendacil's son lived in opulence, probably from both taxes and tribute, and I don't think that opulence was based on people tithing their chickens and cows to him.
- Caranthir in the Sil taxed the dwarven trade through Thargelion, and obtained much riches from it. That's the only reference to money or taxes on commerce that I can remember in the Sil, other than the dwarves expecting money from Theoden for their work, plus they traveled into Beleriand to make money, not for social visits.
I wouldn't call Merry and Pippin "princes," but they were heirs to positions of power. Pippin's father was the Thain of the Shire, who says that Lotho has no legal claim to rule the Shire, and if anyone did, it was the Thain. Some backstory to the Shire also explains that the titular hereditary ruler of the Shire was the Thain, and Pippin was in line to inherit that "rule." (The Mayor came closer to pan-Shire rule, I guess, but his job seems light-hearted since he mostly manages the postal system and the very small group of Shirrifs, plus presides at banquets. So here's one for you: did Rohan, Gondor, or Mordor have a postal system?)
Also, the hobbits got their land from the king of Arnor (or maybe it was Arthedain) with the "feudal" or contractual obligation that they maintain the Road in return. It seems a feudal obligation to me that they sent some archers to the final battle with Angmar.
Buckland was a mostly autonomous "colony" outside normal Shire boundaries and ruled by the Master of Buckland, of whom Merry was an heir. Again, not a prince, but in line for a significant, hereditary position of governance.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 2 2010, 9:22am
Post #106 of 129
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Meanwhile modern totalitarian states may enslave their prisoners literally (Desicon9 perceptively mentioned the gulag), but their working classes are not enslaved in the traditional or literal sense, despite western propaganda.
Another possibly complicating factor in comparing Mordor to real-world economic systems is that our view of Mordor itself is coloured by "western propaganda", since all the texts we have were "written" by Mordor's enemies, whether Men, Elves or hobbits.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Curious
Half-elven
Sep 2 2010, 12:19pm
Post #107 of 129
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Now there's a bit of fan fiction for you.
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Write the story from the Enemy's point of view.
That is a major, major trend in books and movies and plays -- outsider monsters or witches or what-have-you who are really misunderstood heroes (Shrek is perhaps the most successful example). The idea of a whole race of irredeemable monsters, ugly and scary and evil, is kind of old-fashioned, perhaps because of modern sensitivity to demonizing any race -- even a race of demons (see, e.g., Hellboy)! Perhaps the closest we get to guilt-free monster killings are all the zombie films and books that are popular now, since zombies are already dead.
So, time to create a zombie hero! He just wants a hug!
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 2 2010, 1:28pm
Post #108 of 129
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seems to have even thought about seeing things from the other point of view. First with the dead soldier in Ithilien, and later when, after discussing stories with Frodo, he's led to wonder about Gollum: "I wonder if he thinks he's the hero or the villain?"
But that's about as far as it goes. And as you say, trying to reconstruct the "history" from the other perspective would just turn into fan-fiction. But it's something I think we need to bear in mind when we try to work out what's really going on in Mordor. The orcs don't think of themselves as merely "irredeemable monsters, ugly and scary and evil", after all - we hear enough of their conversation to recognise that they have their own hopes and fears, and their own morality, debased and corrupted though it may be.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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squire
Half-elven
Sep 2 2010, 2:03pm
Post #109 of 129
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Texts giving Mordor's side of the question
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This concern has been addressed here.
Zinn: Gandalf mentions the evil stirring in Mordor. That's all he has to say. "It's evil." He doesn't elaborate on what's going on in Mordor, what the people are going through. They're evil because they're there.
I would point out that we do have at least one text written by Sauron:
One Ring to rule them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to bring them all
And in the Darkness bind them.
There are also records of the feelings and thoughts of the various Nazgul in the course of their duties, probably recovered from the day-logs found in Minas Morgul/Ithil by Elessar's tower-recovery teams in the early Fourth Age - similar artifacts were found in Orthanc in the same time period.
Let the little people blow! Sauron would deal with them later.
...for a moment he was troubled, sensing some other power within his valley. ... But he was in haste. Already the hour had struck, and at his great Master’s bidding he must march with war into the West.
squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 2 2010, 2:43pm
Post #111 of 129
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in the same way that we "depend" on any source of any history. We bear in mind who is telling the story, and allow for possible bias.
How can we trust what we read in the orcs' conversations? As you just said, all that is recorded by hobbits and cannot be depended on.
Assuming we want to play the game at all, we "believe" that the hobbits (and other chroniclers who supposedly wrote or added to the texts of the legendarium) wrote the "truth" as they saw it, but that they may not have seen everything, nor understood everything. (Clearly, to imagine that what's written might be a deliberate lie is absurd, and makes the whole story worthless. But to imagine that it's a story told from a particular perspective, not necessarily that of Tolkien himself, is quite useful, I find, and borne out by many indications in the text that that was what was intended.)
Alternatively, we can assume that Tolkien is telling us everything omnisciently and as completely as he was able, at which point we start to grumble that he's left a heck of a lot of stuff out. My suggestion, though, is that he didn't intend to tell us everything - he meant his work to resemble a set of legends and histories, and for us to have to read between the lines, and reconstruct things that are left obscure (like the economy) if we're interested enough to want to. Not everything is in there, because not everything is meant to be in there - and some things, like whether or not Sauron's minions were literally slaves as we define the word, should be examined in light of, for example, how the orcs see themselves.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Sep 2 2010, 2:58pm
Post #112 of 129
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I think maybe Squire is concerned with fan fic history revisionism
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and I am with him if this is his perspective and if it means diminishing in any way the evil of Sauron. Any fan fiction from the Enemy's point of view may be written in a way to make their position more sympathetic. This is not compatible with any of the texts. Morgoth and Sauron are evil and their supernatural influence attracts evil. I think our sympathy should extend as far as Tolkien allows - with the foot soldier pressed into service.
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
Tim: Follow. But. Follow only if ye be TORNsibs of valour, for the making of The Hobbit is guarded by a creature so foul, so cruel that no TORNsib yet has fought with it and lived. Bones of an A List veteran director lie strewn about its lair. So, brave TORNsibs, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for Hollywood studio bureaucratic ineptitude awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth!
Studio Exec: And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.
Studio CEO: This new learning amazes me, Studio Lapdog. Explain again how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Sep 2 2010, 4:23pm
Post #113 of 129
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And Sauron speaking to Pippin in the Palantir
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I actually try to forget this part of the books because Sauron seems not the great devil overshadowing the world with his unfathomable evilness, but instead sounds like a petty, irritable bureaucrat, the kind that annoys you when you renew your driver's license and makes you fill out unnecessary forms just to pretend he's got power over you.
When he first thinks it's Saruman who's come to the Palantir, he says something like, "Where have you been? Why has it taken you so long to report?" Oh, that sounds scary. The petty supervisor bullying his underling. You must report, you must fill out this form in triplicate, and you must punch out at 5 pm without incurring overtime.
Then even his menace to Pippin, "Tell Saruman this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once." Okay, a threat there that Pippin will be taken to Barad-dur for torture and questioning, but still, the dialogue isn't scary or diabolical. I'm not sure if Hollywood-style evil cackles would have helped or backfired. Yet Morgoth does scare me in the Sil, and I don't find his dialogue to sound so base.
But my opinions aside, we do hear that bit from Sauron, a direct look at how he speaks and thinks.
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squire
Half-elven
Sep 2 2010, 5:05pm
Post #114 of 129
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As with the orcs, I was trying to avoid using hobbit-reported dialogue to "convey the Mordor point of view". In his notes "On Translation" in LotR Appendix F, Tolkien reveals that he has actually bowdlerized the Orcs' talk:
their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering,
So can we be sure that Pippin, in his horror, gave us the exact phrases and full conversation of his interview? As FarFromHome warns, perhaps Sauron was in fact more understated and polite! Anyway I agree that Sauron's language to Pippin - as given - is pretty banal. But note that the content of the conversation is nevertheless quite evil: Pippin is dehumanized to an "it", and is a "dainty" to be consumed slowly and with pleasure. And Pippin is shown to have been nearly psychologically destroyed just by being in the mental presence of the Dark Lord. Obviously Sauron does not communicate simply with (un)spoken language.
So what exactly would "scary" or "diabolical" language be like? This is always a problem with villainy among the upper-crust: it's their deeds, not their speech, that must be evil, or else they wouldn't be upper-crust. Later, of course, via the Morgul-lord and the Mouth of Sauron we do get better, and pretty scary, descriptions of what happens to Sauron's prisoners. I think Tolkien was reluctant to be too detailed about Mordor and Sauron, too soon in the book, since nothing terrifies like the unhindered imagination (as Frodo exclaims to Gildor in the Woody End).
Perhaps you could find some examples of Morgoth's dialogue in The Silmarillion that you find scary - and we could compare how he speaks to how Sauron speaks in this instance.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 2 2010, 5:43pm
Post #115 of 129
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There are also records of the feelings and thoughts of the various Nazgul in the course of their duties, probably recovered from the day-logs found in Minas Morgul/Ithil by Elessar's tower-recovery teams in the early Fourth Age
As I've argued before, most of the thoughts attributed to the bad guys can also be explained as attempts by the good-guy historians to get across the attitude of the bad guys, which they (the good guys) were perfectly capable of imagining, according to their own view of the "evil empire" they were fighting. (As that now-notorious passage you quoted a while back from The Hunt for the Ring makes clear, the "real" thoughts of the Nazgul weren't quite as overweeningly confident as "Let the little people blow!" might suggest.)
The Ring-spell is an interesting example of a "text" by Sauron - Gandalf tells us that the verse has been "long known in Elven lore". What does that mean? That Sauron made it up and told it to the Elves? Hardly. It sounds like something the Elves could have made up themselves about the evil One Ring. Maybe Sauron heard the "lore" circulating among the Elves and inscribed the last part of the verse on his (already-existing) Ring out of defiance or scorn. Or maybe not. Maybe we don't need to analyse it - maybe we should just accept it as fantasy, and stop trying to analyse this stuff at all.
I think that's what Tolkien wanted his readers to do, yet he also made his world compelling enough that we find ourselves wanting to analyse it anyway. But if we want to analyse the economics, the demographics, or anything else in Middle-earth as if it's real, then I suggest we also should be willing to think of the "history" as if it's real, i.e. as if it's a real ancient history, with all the omissions, biases and lack of modern understanding that you would find in any ancient tale.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Sep 2 2010, 5:44pm)
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Sep 2 2010, 5:59pm
Post #116 of 129
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Maybe we don't need to analyse it - maybe we should just accept it as fantasy, and stop trying to analyse this stuff at all.
Once we start going down the road of doubting motivations and imposing an artificial bias on what we're told in the text - we can go anywhere. In real history there is at least a chance of uncovering two sides of the story. Not so here.
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
Tim: Follow. But. Follow only if ye be TORNsibs of valour, for the making of The Hobbit is guarded by a creature so foul, so cruel that no TORNsib yet has fought with it and lived. Bones of an A List veteran director lie strewn about its lair. So, brave TORNsibs, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for Hollywood studio bureaucratic ineptitude awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth!
Studio Exec: And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.
Studio CEO: This new learning amazes me, Studio Lapdog. Explain again how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
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squire
Half-elven
Sep 2 2010, 6:39pm
Post #117 of 129
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The Ring Spell is Sauron's composition
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At the Council of Elrond Gandalf recites the words of the Ring Spell in the Black Speech that Sauron engraved on the One Ring when forging it, and then gives the translation in the common speech. His introductory comment suggests that the Elvish ring smiths - later we learn that their leader was Celebrimbor - heard Sauron speak the Spell at the moment he did so:
"Out of the Black Years come the words that the Smiths of Eregion heard, and knew that they had been betrayed" (LotR, II.2)
To this can be added, if we wish, the slightly various detail given in the summary of LotR that is found in The Silmarillion:
But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. (Sil, "Of the Rings of Power")
In the latter account, there is no mention of the Spell, and the elves seem to sense, rather than hear, Sauron's intentions. There's no real way to account for the discrepancy except as two different traditions. Neither one, however, suggests that the Elves wrote the Spell itself. The central point is that the One Ring was a surprise attack on the Elves' rings, and the Spell was first created to go with and appear on the One Ring.
How then did the Spell end up at the end of the longer Ring verse ("Three rings for the Elven kings", etc.)? Some commentators have suggested that the Elves translated Sauron's Spell and incorporated it into their verse as a wisdom-poem. It must, of course, have been composed after the One Ring was completed, whereas the Spell was part of the One Ring from its creation. Therefore we are led to believe that the original Spell (in the Black Speech) is indeed Sauron's composition, not the elves'.
I was just kidding about the Nazgul day-logs!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Sep 2 2010, 7:24pm
Post #118 of 129
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Celebrimbor heard those lines, didn't he?
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I think someone (Gandalf, Elrond, not sure) said that as soon as Sauron put on the One and uttered his gloating lines, Celebrimbor "heard" him, and promptly had the Three taken out of action. Presumably he heard him telepathically, and my next assumption is that he was wearing one of the Three and Sauron connected to his mind that way. Anyway, I think that's how the message got across to the elves.
Interesting, at this point in our discussion, that the message was in Mordor's language but using elven script. Just reading that language out loud in a sanctuary like Rivendell darkened the room and hurt the elves' ears, so its evil power had to be potent. Yet it's in elven script, not whatever runes or letters Sauron used (I think he had his own). Was that a taunt to the elves, to make sure they understood his triumph? "Haha, I have got you." A minor point, probably, but it seems he wanted to make sure they got the message. Or maybe it was just the blindness of hubris.
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 2 2010, 7:43pm
Post #119 of 129
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We have two more passages which speak of Sauron's thoughts: when the Eye is said to be pondering the bright sword and stern face it has seen, and when Frodo claims the Ring in the Sammath Naur.
(sorry for not quoting)
A fair warning: I am a nitpicker by taste, talents and profession.
"Does it matter whether the things Tom has to do are "useful" things? ... Perhaps nothing would seem much different if he wasn't there with 'my singing, my talking and my walking, and my watching of the country.' But something would be missing - something intangible, hardly noticeable maybe. A little of the spirit would have gone out of the land. "
- FarFromHome.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 2 2010, 8:49pm
Post #120 of 129
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I was just kidding about the Nazgul day-logs!
I got the joke - but I figured I'd answer the hidden point within it!
Thanks for reminding me about the history of the Ring-spell as it's given at the Council of Elrond, and in the Sil. Neither account seems to mention the engraving of the spell on the Ring, though - they only mention overhearing Sauron's words, or perceiving his thought. Is there some other source that makes you so sure the engraving was done as the Ring was forged?
The idea you mention, that Sauron's spell was translated and incorporated into the longer verse by the Elves certainly appeals to me - as does the idea that there are two different traditions of how the Elves came to know the spell in the first place. So did they literally hear Sauron's words, or just sense what he was up to? And if the latter, couldn't they have composed their verse independent of any specific words of his? Which would leave my (admittedly outlandish) idea still standing, I think.... (The fact that the spell is in the Black Speech on the Ring doesn't prove anything either way - I can imagine Sauron particularly enjoying putting the Elves' words into his own artificially-created and deliberately ugly Black Speech, while using a version of their beautiful script to do so.)
(Perhaps I should add that I'm not saying that this is what did happen - just that there's room for more than one interpretation of events.)
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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squire
Half-elven
Sep 2 2010, 11:35pm
Post #121 of 129
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SAURON: How goes the war?
Angmar: Excellent. We’ve got Gil-galad on the run all the way the Blue Mountains, and that kid Elrond is trapped, right where we want him.
SAURON: Bah! It’s taking too long! Where’s those freaking rings, is what I want to know.
Angmar: I think Celebrimbor would have told us, if we’d gone a little easier on him. You kind of lost it, there.
SAURON: Don’t give me that! I can’t wait for the little creep to reincarnate, so I can kill him again. Did you see how the body flopped in the wind like a battle flag? Ha ha ha!
Angmar: That was a nice touch, I admit. Why can’t you use that fancy new Ring to find the others?
SAURON: I’ve been trying. It doesn’t work the way it was supposed to. I think I missed a step in the process.
Angmar: [looks at ceiling] If you’d kept a certain ring-making expert alive, say in the cellar on a cob-web and venom diet, instead of unwinding his…
SAURON: Shut up, already! I think I know what’s missing. A slogan.
Angmar: Slogan?
SAURON: Words, stupid. A spell. You know, “Rings go better with hocus-pocus”. I spent too much time on pouring all my essential power into it, and forgot to brand the damn thing.
Angmar: So what’s the spell? You complain about delays, and now we find out…
SAURON: Uh uh uh! Witch-King – or bitch king?
Angmar: [prostrates on floor] I beg forgiveness! Torment me!
SAURON: Oh, get up, you old ass, you like it too much. Help me out here. This needs to be good.
Angmar: Um... how about
Hey middle-earth!
Ring a ding ding!
Sauron’s in charge,
and your butt’s in a sling!
SAURON: Are you trying to piss me off? ‘Cause you’re doing an excellent job.
Angmar: Well, it rhymes!
SAURON: You schmuck. It needs dignity. Like…like…
When moon and sun
Light up the sky
You’ll bow to the one
The one that is I!
Angmar: *cough, cough*dog doo*cough*
SAURON: Yeah, so?
Angmar: I hate to mention this, but would you consider Elvish poetry?
SAURON: Yarggh! It gives me the creeps! Do we have to?
Angmar: You’re the boss. But this one was reported by Intelligence just last week. It’s the latest in wisdom lore in the camps of the Eldar:
Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
SAURON: Whoa. Whoa, whoa.
Angmar: I think it’s quite good, actually - except the “doomed to die” line.
SAURON: Good? You fool! It’s PERFECT!
Angmar: Has a ring to it, don’t you think?
SAURON: Shut up with the jokes, already! “One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne” – that’s me! How cool!
Angmar: It is wordy – would it fit?
SAURON: Not a problem. Not a problem. I can be subtle. I can edit.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Curious
Half-elven
Sep 2 2010, 11:52pm
Post #122 of 129
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Ha! And you say you don't like fan fiction!
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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You just don't like bad fan fiction. This is great stuff!
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Sep 3 2010, 12:15am
Post #123 of 129
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Sauron's diction vs. his boss's; who is more menacing?
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Can't Post
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Perhaps you could find some examples of Morgoth's dialogue in The Silmarillion that you find scary - and we could compare how he speaks to how Sauron speaks in this instance.
Sauron in the palantir to Pippin: "So you have come back? Why have you neglected to report for so long?"..."Who are you?"..."Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. [what, for tea?] Tell Saruman this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you undertand? Say just that!"
vs.
Morgoth curses Hurin after capturing him in the 5th Battle: "Sit now there; and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom thou lovest. Thou hast dared to mock me, and to question the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears thou shalt hear; and never shalt thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end."
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Curious
Half-elven
Sep 3 2010, 12:26am
Post #124 of 129
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I never noticed that before, but it's unmistakeable. I don't think Theoden or Denethor would talk like that.
But maybe that's a function of talking mind to mind.
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Sep 3 2010, 12:44am
Post #125 of 129
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rolling on the floor laughing my arse off right now. But carefully. With my laptop.
King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim.
Tim: Follow. But. Follow only if ye be TORNsibs of valour, for the making of The Hobbit is guarded by a creature so foul, so cruel that no TORNsib yet has fought with it and lived. Bones of an A List veteran director lie strewn about its lair. So, brave TORNsibs, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for Hollywood studio bureaucratic ineptitude awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth!
Studio Exec: And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.
Studio CEO: This new learning amazes me, Studio Lapdog. Explain again how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
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