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CuriousG
Half-elven
Aug 24 2010, 12:40pm
Post #26 of 129
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Frodo: the exceptional hobbit and hero
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Another aspect of this chapter is that it continues to develop Frodo as an exceptional hobbit. He is a hero, though not a confident or aggressively brave one. He's also endowed with qualities that other hobbits don't seem to possess. He was the only one to awaken in the Barrow: why? They were all taken captive. He had some clairvoyance about the attack on Crickhollow. (The Nazgul attacked then; they didn't use proxies. So why couldn't they attack the sleeping hobbits in The Prancing Pony?) And though terrified on Amon Sul, he wasn't incapacitated like his friends. He still had the will to attack the Witch-King and take off the Ring and try to prevent its capture. Courage, as I've been told, is not acting without fear, but acting in spite of fear.
He is being built up, in my mind, as the only one who can complete the quest because of his exceptionality (which is developed further in his long resistance to the wound by the Morgul knife that is to come). I can hear Curious chiming in ( ) that all this was due to Providence guiding his fate, and I would agree. He doesn't appear to be the accidental hero that he perceives himself to be in his modesty and self-doubt. No accident or whimsy of fate: he was selected by someone to get the Ring and do this deed. And Varda seems to inspire him too, with him invoking her name at the crucial moment. Maybe that was chance, maybe not, but he does appear to have Powers on his side in addition to a wizard.
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 24 2010, 12:43pm
Post #27 of 129
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There Sauron had vested the Witchking with his power, and under Sauron's Great Darkness, at the head of his armies, the Witchking felt ready and able to duel Gandalf the White. It's a very different time and place, and the Witchking seems to channel Sauron's spirit.
But what I can't explain is Gandalf's inability to fend off the Riders at Weathertop just three days earlier. Yes, Gandalf faced nine riders, not five, but Gandalf is also, as you note, a specialist in fire, held the Ring of Fire, and served the Secret Fire. If fire was enough to make them flee, Gandalf should have been able to do it.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Aug 24 2010, 12:48pm
Post #28 of 129
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Thanks. You're right; the Nazgul shouldn't have been fooled by the bolsters.
Maybe it's my own willful interpretation, and I'm just ignoring some facts because I want to. I like the fear induced by the Black Riders. I'm not scared of Ferny, I just loathe him. Thinking that Frodo narrowly escaped death at the hands of the Riders in the inn's bedroom, instead of a murder attempt by Ferny, heightens the fear and drama for me, keeping me eagerly turning the pages.
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 24 2010, 1:11pm
Post #29 of 129
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Frodo is an exceptional hobbit.
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But at this point he is exceptionally fierce, attacking the Barrow-wight and attempting to attack the Witchking. This will hold through Moria, where he attacks the Cave Troll, and perhaps even though Cirith Ungol, where he faces down Shelob.
After Shelob wounds him and the orcs capture him, he changes; he must devote all his energy to keeping up his strength and resisting the Ring. He abandons his weapons, and vows not to take up weapons ever again. Even after the Ring is unmade, he refuses to take up weapons again, and restrains other hobbits in the Scouring. Then, of course, he finds himself unable to recover from his wounds.
Perhaps, like a shell-shocked warrior, he reaches his breaking point in Mordor, and never quite recovers. Alternatively, he moves from physical courage to spiritual courage, including the courage to resist violence and forgive his enemies and calm his fellow hobbits. Or maybe it's a bit of both, something lost and something gained, a transition to a more spiritual being.
I think sometimes readers forget that for much of the story Frodo was the fiercest of the hobbits, and not the broken hobbit we see in Mordor or the pacifist we see in the Scouring. He was ahead of his companions from the beginning. Whether he remained ahead of them by moving to a place of peaceful wisdom or fell behind because of his trauma and wounds is open to debate.
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xy
Rohan
Aug 24 2010, 3:31pm
Post #30 of 129
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I'm guessing element of surprise
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1. Nazgul do not expect Frodo to fight back as he did - and are we sure he missed WK ?
2. Unlike a powerful magical being like Gandalf where they needed the presence of all Nine* - here they had 4 little hobbits and a ranger. I've no doubt Aragorn took them completely by surprise when he jumped out with torches.
* Gandalf says he was tired after the fight, what with throwing thunderbolts around all night. Maybe the Nazgul are tired a little as well.
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 24 2010, 4:33pm
Post #31 of 129
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Good point about the Riders being tired,
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although that's not something supplied by the text. This is what I mean by feeling like I'm indulging in fan fiction -- even if we can come up with plausible reasons they don't appear in any form in the text -- not even in ambiguous hints and clues.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Aug 24 2010, 5:06pm
Post #32 of 129
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On the other hand; and, Bombadil and the Siege of Imladris
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Even though the Witch-King saw the Barrow blade and was scared by it, and the sight of it halted two of his comrades, he attacked Frodo anyway, showing some resolute courage despite his dismay. So, like any good Tolkien characters, the Nazgul were conflicted. We just never hear their side of things. Not that I would be sympathetic.
You sort of wonder why he didn't utter the spell to break the sword there and then instead of waiting for the Ford of Bruinen, though Gandalf said his own spells (like locking the door in the Chamber of Mazarbul) take time, so that might be why.
To revisit a recent topic: we discussed at great length Sauron's invasion of Eriador and the seige of Imladris. Lindon was threatened too. That means Bombadil's little enclave would have have been in the thick of things and surrounded by Sauron's forces. I don't think every square inch of Eriador was crawling with orcs, but Bombadil wasn't remote since his domain is close to The Road. So, was he besieged too? If so, what did he do since he survived?
There's the discussion in the Council of Elrond about him and how, if everything else fell under a renewed dominion of Sauron, he would fall too, "Last as he was First." Taken literally, he would be last to fall to Sauron, implying he would be the most redoubtable defender. Or perhaps Sauron wouldn't consider him that important since he didn't have any subjects or much land, and that's why he would be last? It's curious that he's never mentioned in any of the histories, even in brief, tantalizing mentions such as those in the Tale of the Years that we don't know any more details about, such as "Second assault on Lorien." What about: "Second assault on Bombadil"?
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 24 2010, 5:27pm
Post #33 of 129
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Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wights
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are presumably on the side of the Witchking, at least more so than the side of Men and Hobbits. Bombadil was a noncombatant who could not easily be captured by the bad guys but did not obviously intervene on behalf of the good guys.
Given time, the Dark Lord might have turned the Old Forest and Barrow-mounds into another Mordor, a place even Bombadil could not tolerate. But in light of more pressing concerns, Sauron and the Witchking presumably saw no reason to target Bombadil.
I wonder if the men and women who died and were buried in the Barrow-mounds ever resented Bombadil's refusal to go to war with them, or at least grant them some kind of refuge? The elves may have been more understanding than the men. It's one thing to be a pacificist noncombatant when the battles are far away; it's another matter when they battle on your front yard, or in your neighbor's house.
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Evernight
Rivendell
Aug 24 2010, 6:25pm
Post #34 of 129
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I wonder if the men and women who died and were buried in the Barrow-mounds ever resented Bombadil's refusal to go to war with them, or at least grant them some kind of refuge?
Appendix A says that in T.A. 1409, after the destruction of the Tower of Amon Sûl "a remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the Forest behind." (Appendix A, page 1016, one volume edition. Bold mine).
Next page I find this "[Some say that the mound in which the Ring-bearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409.]"
These two excerpts remind me of the treasure Bombadil takes out of the mound. Appart from the swords, there's another object that Tolkien describes:
"He [Bombadil] chose for himself from the pile a brooch set with blue stones, many-shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory, shaking his head, and saying at last: 'Here is a pretty toy for Tom and for his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!'" (Fog on the Barrow-Downs, page 142, one volume edition)
Maybe I'm treading on the dubious ground of fanfiction, but these words make me think that Bombadil knew personally both the prince of Cardolan and his wife/sister/daughter/mother/whatever, and granted them refuge in his home for a while.
In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...
(This post was edited by Evernight on Aug 24 2010, 6:25pm)
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Rohan
Aug 24 2010, 6:39pm
Post #35 of 129
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Were Nazgul under orders to capture the Ring or only capturing the one carrying the Ring ( Frodo) ?
Was WK improvising at Weathertop when he stabbed Frodo or was turning the Ringbearer into a wraith the plan all along ?
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 24 2010, 7:00pm
Post #36 of 129
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Perhaps if he just gave refuge to women and children, the army of Angmar wasn't so interested -- or perhaps Bombadil has resources we can't comprehend.
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 24 2010, 7:06pm
Post #37 of 129
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for the Nine to capture the holder of the One. Sure, Frodo didn't claim the One for himself, but when he put on the One could that have affected the Nine? Would they prefer to turn him into a wraith so that he would willingly join them, rather than trying to capture or coerce the holder of the One?
Note that if the Ford had not flooded, Frodo might have found himself powerless to resist the call of the Nine. He certainly wasn't making any attempt to flee, and his attempt to fight failed miserably, with his sword broken and his voice struck dumb. He wouldn't even have crossed the water if Glorfindel hadn't ordered Asfaloth to run for it, because the Nine were silently "commanding him to wait."
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 24 2010, 7:23pm
Post #38 of 129
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to find plausible explanations for the Riders' behavior, because Tolkien doesn't offer those explanations to the reader. Why couldn't the objective narrator speak up, or why couldn't Strider's speculation hit closer to home?
It makes sense that the Riders were tired after battling Gandalf and wary of the Ring and its potential power over them and scared of the sword Frodo unexpectedly drew. But none of that would be noticed by the reader because Tolkien does nothing to hint at those explanations. Even ambiguous hints would help, because we could pick up on them the second or third time through the book.
It's remarkable that Tolkien so often does lay the groundwork for what happens so that on close examination it all makes sense. This is not one of those instances.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Aug 24 2010, 7:28pm
Post #39 of 129
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I don't think you're verging on fanfic at all, Evernight. I'd forgotten that bit about Cardolan, and I never made the connection to Bombadil, but I've always wondered how he knew the woman who wore the brooch and why his memory of her was so poignant, especially since he is silly and light-hearted most of the time. So you tied it all up for me--gracias! And once again, Tolkien has mastered a zillion details and linked them altogether.
And yes, Curious, I wonder the same thing. Did the Dunedain appeal to Bombadil for help? Or, like the men of Rohan and Galadriel, did they distrust and avoid him? If Tom will save four hobbits on the Barrow Downs, what would he have done or not done for the Dunedain refugees? Or, did he give them sanctuary, and they later made a break for Fornost or Lindon and got killed along the way and outside of his domain?
I guess we can revisit Bombadil's role when we get to the Council of Elrond chapter given the exchange there between the elves and Gandalf. (And why does Gandalf know Bombadil so well, and stays with him at the end of the book, and how often does he visit him, and why?.....)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Aug 24 2010, 7:34pm
Post #40 of 129
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Strider could have expounded more on what he thought. He's the wise one/answer-giver at this point for the hobbits. His vague observation of "I don't think they expected to be resisted" doesn't go very far for most of us as an explanation. I'm not saying he was omniscient or was supposed to be, but I think he knew more than he said. And whatever he had to say would have comforted the scared hobbits since the Black Riders did indeed withdraw so far they lost track of the hobbits. Maybe he was more concerned about Frodo's bewitched wound at that point.
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 24 2010, 7:55pm
Post #41 of 129
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wanted to save the explanations for Rivendell, and once he got there just couldn't find room for a detailed explanation of what happened at Weathertop.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Aug 25 2010, 10:35am
Post #42 of 129
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Why couldn't the objective narrator speak up... Tolkien does nothing to hint ... Even ambiguous hints would help, because we could pick up on them the second or third time through the book.
It's remarkable that Tolkien so often does lay the groundwork for what happens so that on close examination it all makes sense. This is not one of those instances.
I think the answer lies in the very few hints we get that things are different on the "other side", the shadow world that is entered when wearing the Ring, and where the Black Riders have their most powerful existence.
Frodo gets a glimpse into the way things are in the shadow world as he looks back at the Ford of Bruinen:
"I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?" "Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn." (Many Meetings)
He had already seen the Nazgul from that perspective on Weathertop:
"Immediately, though everything else remained as before, dim and dark, the shapes became terribly clear. He was able to see beneath their black wrappings." (A Knife in the Dark)
To Frodo while he's in the shadow world, everything in the real world seems dim, while things on the "other side" seem vivid and real. This seems to echo the way that things are for the Ringwraiths too:
"They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared."
It seems that the Ringwraiths' dim and shadowy perception of the "real world" extends to their being capable of only dim and shadowy physical action on it. They can master their horses, and interact minimally with objects (breaking down the door at Crickhollow - unless they used a horse for that - and picking up a cloak), but their only truly dangerous power in the mortal world is on the mind. Note that Frodo can only be physically harmed by the Witch-King's knife because he puts the Ring on, and his last, despairing instinct to take the Ring off again is probably what removes him from any further physical danger in the attack.
Now compare that to the Elves' attitude to the Ringwraiths:
"There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south." (Glorfindel, in Flight to the Ford)
It seems that the power of the Nine is much greater to immortal beings who have existence in both "worlds" - the physical world of Middle-earth and the immortal, invisible world beyond.
I suggest that Gandalf is in this same category, which is why he needs to have a full-pitched battle with the Nazgul, while with the mortals they play a game of cat-and-mouse.
I think this also explains why the Nazgul are dismayed by Frodo's barrow-blade. Frodo himself sees the blade as it appears on the "other side":
"Desperate, he drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it was a firebrand. Two of the figures halted."
That sword, then, also has a dual existence, and is capable of physically harming the Ringwraiths - and therefore also of being physically acted on by them. Which is why at the Ford, the Lord of the Nazgul, who is only capable of putting mental force on Frodo himself, is able to physically destroy the barrow-blade:
"Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand." (Flight to the Ford)
Far from being a problem - why is the sword so scary on Weathertop, and so easily destroyed at the Ford? - it becomes a clue to the fact that it really is a great danger to the Nazgul, and therefore needs to be put out of commission before they attack again, and indeed a clue to suggest that they can only do so because it has an existence in their own "other world".
It's true that the story doesn't give up this information easily, perhaps because if readers figure out that mortals are "only" vulnerable to mental attack it will diminish the fear factor - most fear, as horror movie-makers know, is caused by uncertainty and that sense of impending, inexplicable terror that is dispelled by knowing too much.
If the narrator of LotR really were omniscient, he would indeed be expected to pop up with something like, "But unknown to Frodo and his friends, the Ringwraiths themselves were now filled with fear, seeing that their apparently harmless victim was armed with a magic blade specifically designed to harm them. How many other such blades might be in the company? The Riders decided to withdraw and find their missing companions, preparing a spell to break the deadly sword before closing in again. They knew that their victim would need to cross the Ford of Bruinen, so all they had to do was wait..." But the narrator may be third-person, but he's not omniscient - he only sees the hobbits's side of the story, and from their perspective the Ringwraiths are all the more menacing for being so incomprehensible.
In the extract that squire posted, Tolkien is indeed playing the omniscient narrator role, and giving us the perspective of the Nazgul, and it makes the Nazgul seem weak and cowardly. Which I think is fair enough - they are bullies, and they are trying to do a job that's difficult for them, since the job is against mortals and in the real world that they have only minimal access to. They are very vulnerable to simple accidents like having their mounts washed away, and need to find accomplices to do anything physically demanding in the mortal world. Meanwhile there are powerful immortal enemies around - Gandalf for one, Glorfindel and whoever else Elrond sent out. With foes like these, the battle is more direct and straightforward than with mortals, but it's dangerous for both parties. Which may explain why they decided to withdraw and find the rest of their companions after Weathertop, before trying to attack again with greater force.
Even after the Ringwraiths' power grows as they approach Mordor and as Sauron's own power increases, they remain only capable of harming mortals mentally, by inspiring terror (that's what happens with Faramir and his men, for example). But with Gandalf, it seems again that the danger is different and more direct:
"‘Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dûr the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls,’ said Gandalf. ‘King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl..." "‘Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,’ said Denethor, "...can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?" "It might be so," Gandalf answered..." (The Siege of Gondor)
Yet right from the start their power against mortals is mostly in inspiring terror:
...they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people – not until they are desperate.... But their power is in terror." (Strider)
That's why they need darkness, and why fire dismays them - not because it's fire as such, but because it's light. In the Great Darkness, once their power has grown, ordinary fire doesn't bother them any more, and neither do they have problems terrorising "many people" - this is now a situation of mass terror, compared to the private terror of lonely individuals in the dark in the first chapters.
But even in the later chapters all their power against mortals lies in controlling the mind - instilling mindless fear or breaking a mind with the Black Breath. Even with Eowyn, the Witch-King doesn't threaten physical death, but the slow breaking of her mind. But with immortal folk who walk also on the "other side" with them, the threat is quite different - the minds are more able to resist, no doubt, but other weapons than fear are now in play, on both sides. Hence WiKi's sudden paralysing doubt when he finds that the mortal Frodo has an otherworldly sword in his possession - that's a game changer, and puts Frodo onto the "other side" of the ledger...
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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sador
Half-elven
Aug 25 2010, 10:53am
Post #43 of 129
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Then we return to Bree, where Frodo wakes up well before dawn, and has troubled dreams until he wakes again at dawn. Apparently Frodo dreams of the attack before it happens.
Well, troubled dreams do not necessarily take a long time; ten minutes quite suffice.
And it isn't clear wether Frodo is dreaming of the attack on Crickhollow, or working into a dream the attack on the next room.
What is the strategy of the Black Riders? Why wait for days to attack in Crickhollow?
Good question! Perhaps it took them time to find the house, or they had to confer with their Captain and decide what to do.
Why move in and out of Fatty’s front yard invisibly, yet visibly open and close the gate?
Well, I don't think it was actually visible to anyone. The narrator sees it - and describes it for our benefit, to increase the spooky effect.
Why don’t they cover the back door? Perhaps they didn't know it was there. It's not as if they had a plan of the house, and if that door doesn't lead anywhere they didn't bother.
Why stand there all night waiting until dawn to attack when they are best at night? They best reason would be to somehow co-ordinate with the attack on Bree (re: The Tale of Years), but it is impossible - both because of the istance needed to communicate, and because that would mean they knew Frodo was not in Crickhollow - which is diametrically against their thought following the attack.
Why yell “‘Open, in the name of Mordor,’” when it takes two blows to knock down the door? Perhaps they counted on their power to command the Ringbearer.
Maybe Tolkien answers these questions in Unfinished Tales, “The Hunt for the Ring,” but I doubt it.
As far as I remember - he only mentions their receiving orders from the Witch-king (and names the leader of the three as Khamul the Easterling).
Oh, and another thought - perhaps they knew Gandalf was on his way. He was in Hobbiton at the time.
Also, if the Horn-call of Buckland hasn’t been sounded for a hundred years, how did anyone recognize it? Do they have regular drills? I think so, yes.
It is more striking that the people of Bywater recognise it later, in The Scouring of the Shire. And how does one blow words?
Strider goes without sleep at least three times in this chapter, by my count – once in Bree, and again the fourth and fifth nights out of Bree. It’s quite possible that he goes without sleep the other nights as well, since the narrator never mentions him sleeping. The seventh night out, if I calculate it correctly, they fight the Black Riders. How can Strider operate without sleep?
The narrator doesn't mention him not sleeping - only his seeming not to sleep, presumably in Frodo's eyes. It could mean only that he went to sleep last and woke up first.
Back to Bree, how did Ferny and Harry and the Southerner enter the hobbits’ bedrooms and stab the bolsters and enter the stables and let loose the horses and ponies without waking anyone, including Strider and Butterbur and Bob and Nob, who were all alert for attack? Magic seems like the only explanation.
You've just said Strider was awake next door!
Another question: if it was indeed those three miscreants, why couldn't Strider take them on?
Butterbur pays twelve silver pennies for Bill Ferny’s pony and eighteen pennies to Merry for the lost animals. Any significance to the thirty pieces of silver, the price Judas was paid to betray Jesus? I like to look for subtle Christian allusions as much as anyone, but this one I find a stretch.
Interesting - but a stretch indeed.
But as far as I recall, this is the last time anyone refers to money at all. Why is that? Do the elves use money? Is Rohan a barter-based society? Would money feel out of place? Surely Gondor uses money, right? Were there references to money I haven’t recalled?
Saruman refers to his Longbottom Leaf as paid for.
But this enhances your question rather than answering it.
Even between the Shire and Bree I detect a shift in historical inspirations, with Bree reminiscent of an earlier time period than the Shire, before post offices and umbrellas and mantle clocks.
Right - but it is perhaps not Bree as opposed to the Shire as much as Men as opposed to Hobbits.
How did Bombadil hear what happened in Bree? How did he send the ponies back to Butterbur? Through a Ranger, perhaps? Tom knows of Bree; and he probably sent the ponies back escorted by Fatty Lumpkin, or with the help of Gildor's people.
I suppose that Bob was used to taking care of ponies straying in the Wild, and might have seen it as a clean find - or else he recognised White-socks.
It’s significant, then, that Strider will later adopt a translation of Strider, “Telcontar,” as his house name. It may be a tribute to the four hobbits who first came to know him as Strider, and for whom it did become a term of affection.
Yes, that's how it seems. He could have tried Eomer's 'Wingfoot', as well.
And if Angmar was capable of destroying the Elven watchtower on Weathertop, it seems unlikely that ruder walls would do much good. Was it Angmar? For some reason I thought it was internal strife.
Strider lets slip a comment about Elendil watching for Gil-galad on the watchtower of Amon Sûl, which naturally prompts Merry to ask who is Gil-galad. I note that Merry is the curious one, as usual.
Tolkien’s poem about Gil-galad has a simple beat and rhyme scheme, four beats to a line and six couplets. If we ignore the subject matter, I don’t find the beat or rhyme interesting. In fact, if I read an epic made up of four beat lines and rhyming couplets, I think it would quickly get annoying. Small wonder Sam couldn't memorise the rest!
Tolkien drops a couple of more hints here. First, Strider says he never knew that Bilbo translated this poem, indicating that he knows Bilbo and his other translations. Few will catch that hint on first reading.
Nice catch! I haven't until you've mentioned it. 
Second, Sam speaks of going to Mordor, even though the supposed goal is just Rivendell. In hindsight it appears quite possible that Sam perceives what Frodo must do, and has already determined that he will go where Frodo goes, to the Cracks of Doom in Mordor. Pippin, on the other hand, does not perceive this at all, and does not understand why Sam is talking this way.
Well, Merry says that Sam considered himself to be on parole, and dried up after Gandalf caught him. And this part was towards the very end of The Shadow of the Past.
Strider is nervous about the hobbits saying the word “Mordor” so loudly. Is he worried that it will summon the servants of Mordor? He doesn’t say “be quiet” in general – he specifically asks that they stop saying the word “Mordor” so loudly. Maybe he just doesn’t like the reminder.
Yet only last chapter, he used it to intimidate Butterbur.
Then there’s the puzzling decision to start a bonfire so that the Black Riders would be certain to find them. Is a fire really the best solution to the problem? It's a handy one, and Strider seems to take the wood left them as a portent.
Ironically, the hobbits carry blades that would be very effective against the Riders, but no one knows that, except perhaps the Riders. Tom?
This is a small point, but it bugs me. If it takes Strider twelve days to travel from Weathertop to the Ford of Bruinen on the Road, why would it take the hobbits only a fortnight (fourteen days) to do the same trip off of the Road? Wouldn’t Strider need fourteen days cross country if he were alone? Don’t the hobbits slow Strider down significantly? This is one of many places Tolkien seems to ignore the difference between short-strided hobbits and long-strided men.
Of course!
I don't remember if I've ever mentioned it, but it really bugs me, too. Another place is at the Bridge of Khazad-dum.
When Strider confirms that the enemy is here and they head back down the hill, for some reason Tolkien refers to Sam and “Peregrin.” Why “Peregrin”? Granted, that’s his name, but we almost never hear it, and I don’t understand why we hear it here. And it’s not Samwise and Peregrin, it’s Sam and Peregrin. Peregrin is used far more often than Meriadoc. Even at the beginning of The Shadow of the Past, the contrast is noticeble.
Okay, I have to stop. I'll try to finish this later.
A fair warning: I am a nitpicker by taste, talents and profession.
"Does it matter whether the things Tom has to do are "useful" things? ... Perhaps nothing would seem much different if he wasn't there with 'my singing, my talking and my walking, and my watching of the country.' But something would be missing - something intangible, hardly noticeable maybe. A little of the spirit would have gone out of the land. "
- FarFromHome.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Aug 25 2010, 2:13pm
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This is really a tour de force, FFH. You answer so much and tie everything together quite, well, "magically."
So I will feel guilty in nitpicking. But call it constructive criticism. The WiKi did threaten Eowyn with a torment of the mind, but he also attacked her physically with his mace, and did so twice (first shattering her shield, then missing the second time, but only because of Merry's ambush from behind). He was definitely out to bludgeon her to death, and he saw her well enough to aim accurately.
But aside from that one point, the rest of your expose decisively puts to rest one common criticism: if the Nazgul could fly and could drive people away with terror, why didn't they fly into Minas Tirith, drive off the defenders, and open the gates from the inside? Answer: opening up gates wasn't within their abilities.
Even after the Ringwraiths' power grows as they approach Mordor and as Sauron's own power increases, they remain only capable of harming mortals mentally, by inspiring terror (that's what happens with Faramir and his men, for example).
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sador
Half-elven
Aug 25 2010, 2:15pm
Post #45 of 129
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Comments on your Analysis - part II
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Strider describes the perceptions of the Riders in the most frightening terms. ???
How does he know so much about them (like he did in the last chapter, where he said for sure what they will and will not do), when Gandalf said a few months ago that it has been very long since the Nine have walked again? Especially guessing what they are likely to do in unfamiliat territory!
The black horses can see.
Do we know for sure the horses communicate what they see to the Riders?
And, perhaps, no wonder Strider decides against trying to flee. At least confronting the Riders has the advantage of novelty. Perhaps Strider suspected how infrequently they were confronted. See my question above.
It is perhaps the only story from The Silmarillion which is full of hope, and a story to which Tolkien will return many times during LotR. In contrast, in LotR he rarely mentions Turin or Feanor, and then only in contexts which do not reveal their tragedies.
In general, the Elder Days seem to be a memory of bliss. No tragedy of the First Age is mentioned, apart for the Fall of Gondolin (twice) and of Nargothrond (once).
The waxing moon shines brightly on the attack – that’s a good omen, and may have something to do with Frodo’s narrow escape. Other than Frodo, the hobbits are all paralyzed by terror. Frodo would be paralyzed too, except for the strong temptation to put on the Ring, which sends him into motion. The temptation to put on the Ring actually seems to counteract the terror inspired by the Riders and therefore, ironically, may help Frodo in some way, for he is able to act in ways the other hobbits are not.
Nice thought!
But I must poin out that Boromir mentioned "a shadow against the moon" as one of the two ways the wraiths appear.
Frodo no longer thinks the Ring will hide him, but still cannot resist putting it on. Although Tolkien calls it a temptation, it’s hard to see what is tempting about it. It seems more like a command or a possession.
Yes, it is a command, like he will feel in the next confrontation. And when the Witch-king is unaware of him, the command is easier to resist - see The Stairs of Cirith Ungol.
We learn more, of course, in The Silmarillion.
Actually, not that much. I think the suggestions in The Lord of the Rings say more (although less explicity perhaps) than the Valaquenta, or even Of the Coming of the Elves, and inspire more reverence.
Third, Frodo stabs at the Rider (presumably the Witchking, with the crown on his head) Of course it is him! As The Stairs of Cirith Ungol says explicitly.
I would love to be a fly on the wall hearing them explain to Sauron why they retreated. The fly Imrahil and Gandalf discuss in The Last Debate?
Even if Frodo had turned into a wraith, why would they think his companions would allow him to bring them the Ring?
This is wierd, but perhaps wraiths could go to Sauron bearing Rings? Just think of how the One Ring escaped the Downfall of Numenor.
I guess that had Frodo's heart been pierced, he would have somehow slipped away and delivered himself to the Enemy (at least that is how I understand Gandalf's words in Many Partings). And of course Strider could not take the Ring from Frodo by force - not even to give it to another hobbit! That would be the worst thing he could do, and put him in their power. And Rivendell is still far away.
A fair warning: I am a nitpicker by taste, talents and profession.
"Does it matter whether the things Tom has to do are "useful" things? ... Perhaps nothing would seem much different if he wasn't there with 'my singing, my talking and my walking, and my watching of the country.' But something would be missing - something intangible, hardly noticeable maybe. A little of the spirit would have gone out of the land. "
- FarFromHome.
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sador
Half-elven
Aug 25 2010, 2:26pm
Post #46 of 129
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The WiKi did threaten Eowyn with a torment of the mind, but he also attacked her physically with his mace, and did so twice (first shattering her shield, then missing the second time, but only because of Merry's ambush from behind). He was definitely out to bludgeon her to death, and he saw her well enough to aim accurately.
The WiKi was especially enhanced by Sauron for this attack - he might have been able to wield a mace! Note that while he is invested with brute force, he does not seem very agile or dexterous. Rude strength is presumably easier.
The question here is the sudden doubt he felt, while hearing that Eowyn is a woman. Why should that matter, if "words can break my bones, but sticks and stones will never harm me"? Or are women more connected to "the other side" than men?
A fair warning: I am a nitpicker by taste, talents and profession.
"Does it matter whether the things Tom has to do are "useful" things? ... Perhaps nothing would seem much different if he wasn't there with 'my singing, my talking and my walking, and my watching of the country.' But something would be missing - something intangible, hardly noticeable maybe. A little of the spirit would have gone out of the land. "
- FarFromHome.
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sador
Half-elven
Aug 25 2010, 2:28pm
Post #47 of 129
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If eighteen pennies is a fair price for Merry's five ponies (3.6 pennies per pony), who were all in good health The "fair price" is mentioned later, when Butterbur receives the ponies.
And welcome to TORn!
A fair warning: I am a nitpicker by taste, talents and profession.
"Does it matter whether the things Tom has to do are "useful" things? ... Perhaps nothing would seem much different if he wasn't there with 'my singing, my talking and my walking, and my watching of the country.' But something would be missing - something intangible, hardly noticeable maybe. A little of the spirit would have gone out of the land. "
- FarFromHome.
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sador
Half-elven
Aug 25 2010, 2:47pm
Post #48 of 129
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As far as I remember, it was in the very first drafts; then it was discarded, in favour of the Ferny idea (which IIRC appeared in an outline to the later drafts). In The Tale of Years, the attack on Crickhollow is mentioned as happening simultanously with the raid on the inn, implying that both were done by the Riders, and Tolkien wrote so specifically in 1955.
You will note that NEB was of the position that Tolkien intended Ferny to be the culprit, and later made a mistake - so at the very least, the text was enough to fool Tolkien himself at the time when he was trying to contruct a rational explanation for the Riders' actions.
Earlier in that thread, NEB mentioned Strider's words which you've as a source for the Ferny theory. But I remain unconvinced, both because I doubt that Strider really knew so much (as I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread), and because Aragorn himself was unsure about Ferny's Southrener friend, as late as in Flotsam and Jetsam - as I've argued here.
A fair warning: I am a nitpicker by taste, talents and profession.
"Does it matter whether the things Tom has to do are "useful" things? ... Perhaps nothing would seem much different if he wasn't there with 'my singing, my talking and my walking, and my watching of the country.' But something would be missing - something intangible, hardly noticeable maybe. A little of the spirit would have gone out of the land. "
- FarFromHome.
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sador
Half-elven
Aug 25 2010, 2:51pm
Post #49 of 129
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Three Riders attacked the House at Crickhollow, not noticing that the Ring was miles away, and that there was no live being in the house.
Being fooled by the bolders once the real thing is next door seems rather more probable.
A fair warning: I am a nitpicker by taste, talents and profession.
"Does it matter whether the things Tom has to do are "useful" things? ... Perhaps nothing would seem much different if he wasn't there with 'my singing, my talking and my walking, and my watching of the country.' But something would be missing - something intangible, hardly noticeable maybe. A little of the spirit would have gone out of the land. "
- FarFromHome.
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Curious
Half-elven
Aug 25 2010, 3:37pm
Post #50 of 129
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The narrator does exactly what you suggest
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when Merry stabs the Witchking, explaining why Merry's blade was so effective.
And still Meriadoc the hobbit stood there blinking through his tears and no one spoke to him, indeed none seemed to heed him. He brushed away the tears, and stooped to pick up the green shield that Éowyn had given him; and he slung it at his back. Then he looked for his sword that he had let fall; for even as he struck his blow his arm was numbed, and now he could only use his left hand. And behold! there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that has been thrust in a fire; and as he watched it, it writhed and withered and was consumed.
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
Similarly, the narrator gives us Shelob's point of view when Sam fights her:
For Sam still stood upon his feet, and dropping his own sword, with both hands he held the elven-blade point upwards, fending off that ghastly roof; and so Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior's hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike. Deep, deep it pricked, as Sam was crushed slowly to the ground.
No such anguish had Shelob ever known, or dreamed of knowing, in all her long world of wickedness. Not the doughtiest soldier of old Gondor, nor the most savage Orc entrapped, had ever thus endured her, or set blade to her beloved flesh. A shudder went through her. Heaving up again, wrenching away from the pain, she bent her writhing limbs beneath her and sprang backwards in a convulsive leap. ...
Even as Sam himself crouched, looking at her, seeing his death in her eyes, a thought came to him, as if some remote voice had spoken. and he fumbled in his breast with his left hand, and found what he sought: cold and hard and solid it seemed to his touch in a phantom world of horror, the Phial of Galadriel. ...
As if his indomitable spirit had set its potency in motion, the glass blazed suddenly like a white torch in his hand. It flamed like a star that leaping from the firmament sears the dark air with intolerable light. No such terror out of heaven had ever burned in Shelob's face before. The beams of it entered into her wounded head and scored it with unbearable pain, and the dreadful infection of light spread from eye to eye. She fell back beating the air with her forelegs, her sight blasted by inner lightnings, her mind in agony. Then turning her maimed head away, she rolled aside and began to crawl, claw by claw, towards the opening in the dark cliff behind.
Even earlier in Book I, when Frodo was alone with the Barrow Wight, the narrator was capable of explaining things to the reader that Frodo did not know:
But though his fear was so great that it seemed to be part of the very darkness that was round him, he found himself as he lay thinking about Bilbo Baggins and his stories, of their jogging along together in the lanes of the Shire and talking about roads and adventures. There is a seed of courage hidden (often deeply, it is true) in the heart of the fattest and most timid hobbit, wailing for some final and desperate danger to make it grow. Frodo was neither very fat nor very timid; indeed, though he did not know it, Bilbo (and Gandalf) had thought him the best hobbit in the Shire. He thought he had come to the end of his adventure, and a terrible end, but the thought hardened him. He found himself stiffening, as if for a final spring; he no longer felt limp like a helpless prey.
So the narrator is perfectly capable of offering explanations unknown to the characters at that time. (You can still, if you like, assume that the hobbits added the commentary later, or that the modern translator added it for the benefit of modern readers.) But Tolkien chose not to do so at Weathertop. And that, I judge, is a failing, for although we can construct reasons for the Riders' behavior, the only reason offered in the narrative, by Strider, is at best incomplete, and at worst just wrong.
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