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Morthoron
Gondor
Jun 30 2010, 2:09am
Post #26 of 41
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Is there validity to an interpretation?
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People are entitled to their opinions, certainly; however, I have yet to see direct correlation to the term 'black men like half-trolls' and Tolkien exhibiting racist tendencies, or even being racially insensitive.
In regards to my interpretation, I have offered two direct contextual themes that would correlate with the term 'black men like half-trolls': 1) that Tolkien uses black/white symbology as an allusion to good and evil throughout his corpus, and 2) there are ample instances of genetic interbreeding on the part of both Sauron and Saruman in the main books of LotR as well as in the appendices. Tolkien indicates these men appeared to be half trolls, which would mean to me grotesque, disproportionately huge and not entirely human. It does not indicate they are of African descent anymore than one can say that the Mouth of Sauron was African because he was a Black Numenorean.
I readily admit this does not prove I am right, nor does it prove a different interpretation is wrong. However, using a legal term, there is not a preponderance of evidence to convict Tolkien on racism in this case, particularly since he was not anti-semitic nor did he exhibit any animosity towards any race that I am aware of -- and I say 'that I am aware of' because there has been no correlative evidence brought forth to the contrary.
"I was crazy back when being crazy really meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy." -- Charles Manson
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 30 2010, 5:02am
Post #27 of 41
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There are two different issues.
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On issue is whether, in that passage, Tolkien intended to refer to black skin. The other is whether doing so was racially insensitive. At this point I'm more interested in the first issue. I don't think Black Rider or Black Numenorean refers to black skin. But what about the word "black" in the following passage?
"...Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues."
For me it is important that the "black men" are from "Far Harad," a land far to the south of Gondor where, as Aragorn says, "the stars are strange." That means it roughly corresponds to the part of Africa which lies south of the equator, which in the Primary World is inhabited by people with black skin. Furthermore it appears alongside "white eyes" and "red tongues," implying that "black" refers to something other than the color of their souls or their clothing. It honestly never occurred to me that "black," in this context, referred to anything other than skin color.
I'll freely admit that this is my interpretation, and that it isn't conclusive, because Tolkien isn't that explicit. However I do think it is a valid interpretation, and therefore if people find it disturbing, I think we should take that seriously, and not simply dismiss it.
And yes, there can be valid and invalid interpretations. Valid interpretations are supported by the evidence, even if they are not conclusive. Invalid interpretations contradict the evidence.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 30 2010, 9:03pm
Post #28 of 41
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To throw another point into the mix...
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think of phrases like 'black-hearted', 'giving someone a black look' 'not as black as he is painted'. The OED (Oxford English Dictionary - Tolkien was on the staff once, as an assistant) gives 'foul, atrocious, wicked, hateful, malignant, deadly, sinister, foreboding or threatening, characterized by the absence of light' among the meanings of the adjective 'black' and I'm sure this is more what Tolkien had in mind.
In the 1300s there was the son of King Edward III who was named The Black Prince years after his death - even though he appears to be a mix of high-minded gentleman and ruthless fighter. Tolkien, surely, would have known the historical uses of the word 'black' in his own country.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Morthoron
Gondor
Jul 1 2010, 2:05am
Post #29 of 41
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Edward the Black Prince, son of Edward III, wore black armor on campaigns, ergo the nickname. And the Black Prince weren't no gentleman, at least to the villages and castles he put to the sword, indiscriminately killing women, children and the elderly. Those butchered were mostly peasants and merchants though --
he was quite chivalrous to his peers. 
"I was crazy back when being crazy really meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy." -- Charles Manson
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Jul 1 2010, 2:06am)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 1 2010, 8:21am
Post #30 of 41
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... chivalry and the like have probably changed somewhat over the centuries! 
So far as I know, though, the black armour is just a theory to explain the name. In his lifetime he wasn't called 'the Black Prince', they called him 'Edward of Woodstock' (or presumably the Prince of Wales, since that's what he was). The earliest known use of 'the Black Prince' comes about 200 years after his death and no one knows for sure why. The actual armour was (and is still) displayed over his tomb in Canterbury and it has a black-ish patina.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jul 1 2010, 8:31am
Post #31 of 41
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I wish I could remember where the quote was, but I'm pretty sure it says somewhere that the Dunedian were, 'Darker and swarther than other men,' and I am also sure that the text somewhere says that the Dunedain were dark-skinned. So possibly, ethnically the Dunedain were a bit of a mixed bunch by the end of the 3rd age!
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Curious
Half-elven
Jul 1 2010, 8:38am
Post #32 of 41
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Aragorn was often associated with darkness, but not, I think, because his skin was dark or swarthy. The Dunedain were tall, with dark hair, pale skin and grey eyes.
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squire
Half-elven
Jul 1 2010, 4:21pm
Post #33 of 41
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Are you sure you are not thinking of the Dunlendings?
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An understandable confusion which Tolkien addressed, deep in the Appendices.
...the Dunlendings. These were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains; and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree; but long before these had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue. Only in Dunland did Men of this race hold to their old speech and manners: a secret folk, unfriendly to the Dúnedain, hating the Rohirrim.
Of their language nothing appears in this book, save the name Forgoil which they gave to the Rohirrim (meaning Strawheads, it is said). Dunland and Dunlending are the names that the Rohirrim gave to them, because they were swarthy and dark-haired; there is thus no connexion between the word dunn in these names and the Grey-elven word Dûn 'west'. (Appendix F, The Lord of the Rings)
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(This post was edited by squire on Jul 1 2010, 4:22pm)
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TheNazgul
Rivendell
Jul 1 2010, 6:58pm
Post #34 of 41
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I dont understand what is wrong with people any more
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everything is racist any more i swear
Et Earello Endorenna utulien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn` Ambar-metta!
(For those who dont read Elvish)
Out of the great sea to Middle-Earth I am come. In this place I will abide,and my heirs, unto the ending of the world
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 1 2010, 7:53pm
Post #35 of 41
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I think it's a sign of our own hangups, rather than a problem with Tolkien or anyone else. It reminds me of the Victorians who supposedly would cover up the legs of tables and pianos because they were so sensitive to the idea of naked legs! Every situation that involves skin colour (or the colour black even if it's not describing skin) seems to set up an alert in people's minds: This must be racist, prepare to be shocked and appalled!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Curious
Half-elven
Jul 1 2010, 8:15pm
Post #36 of 41
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But I wouldn't dismiss it as a hang up. It's there because of a long history of outrages.
I do think we go too far if we use charges of racism (or sexism, classism, Eurocentrism, or other -isms) to toss out the great literature of history. And I think defenders of that literature lose credibility and lose the ability to persuade if they simply scoff at the arguments and insult the critics without offering a reasoned response.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Jul 1 2010, 10:26pm
Post #37 of 41
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of outrages. And clearly the US has been hypersensitized particularly strongly because so much of the suffering took place there. From the other side of the Atlantic the reactions to skin colour issues can seem extreme, but we British have to remember that Britain was at the heart of the slave trade, and that the comfortable situation of ordinary Englishmen in the 18th and 19th centuries (the kind of folk that the hobbits represent) was based on the profits from this brutal reality.
Still, I find it perverse to try to judge attitudes from other times by the standards of ours. Perhaps they were insensitive but sensibilities were different then about many things. I'm sure our own sensibilities will seem equally odd fifty years from now.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 1 2010, 10:33pm
Post #38 of 41
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Couldn't agree more with this....
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Still, I find it perverse to try to judge attitudes from other times by the standards of ours. Perhaps they were insensitive but sensibilities were different then about many things. I'm sure our own sensibilities will seem equally odd fifty years from now.
Sensibilities will change, so will the list of acceptable and unacceptable words. These things are evolving all the time.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jul 1 2010, 11:55pm
Post #39 of 41
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This isn't the quote I was thinking of, I'm pretty sure that somewhere I have seen a quote of dark-skinned Dunedain and it certainly wasn't that one, though they are close as you say. I will endevaour to find it. Now that's a bit of a challenge and something that you certainly can't find by Googling! I'll try to have a look.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jul 2 2010, 3:55am
Post #40 of 41
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I would be very surprised if you can find such a quote
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As Curious said, the Dunedain were tall, with dark hair, pale skin and grey eyes. I'm not aware of any description of them that so clearly contradicts that.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 21 2010, 2:52am
Post #41 of 41
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As far as 'black men like half trolls' goes I disagree. I don't see any reason to assume that he meant their skins were black. That's just one possible meaning of the word and in the language of myth and fairy tale, it isn't even the most common meaning.
I think we have to take "black men" at face value. They were men with black skin. It is far more likely than any other interpretation. If Tolkien had meant "black-hearted" then I think that that's what he would have wrote. If I see a hoof print, I assume a horse and not a zebra (unless I am in the African savannah). I do not see the usage as having been intentionally racist.
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"black men like half trolls"
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