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FarFromHome
Doriath
May 25 2007, 5:45pm
Post #76 of 108
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I haven't read the article you cited, so I may just be stating the obvious, but I for one have dreamt that I was dreaming. So why shouldn't Frodo's explicit dream of the "far green country" be a dream within a dream? (Although as a.s. points out, it's really a true vision, and not an ordinary dream at all.)
Then there's the late poem Bombadil goes Boating, in which Tom visits Farmer Maggot and his family, and they spend a night of dancing and singing, but in the morning Tom has disappeared as if it has all been a dream. Of course Tolkien is far too tricksy to ever let us know for sure whether this, or Frodo's visit for that matter, was actually a dream or not. These are the kinds of questions that I don't think there can ever be a definitive answer to - they are ambiguous, and deliberately so.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Gondolin
May 25 2007, 5:57pm
Post #77 of 108
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Good, but a bit too flamboyant for LotR.
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Bombadil was one of the few characters in LotR taken neither from The Hobbit nor from The Silmarillion, but instead from a poem Tolkien had written, and before that from a doll owned by one of his children. If you read his letters you will see that Tolkien was determined to do something with Bombadil in the sequel to The Hobbit, and that even after he completed the sequel in a tone very different from The Hobbit, he kept Bombadil primarily to give the hobbits an adventure of their own before they got caught up in the matter of the Ring.
But as a result Bombadil doesn't really fit into Middle-earth, which is a mixture of The Hobbit and The Silmarillion. Bombadil is in many ways more like the hobbits than the other immortals of Middle-earth. But because he is such a powerful figure he doesn't really fit in with the other hobbits. Indeed Bombadil is more flamboyantly powerful than immortals like Gandalf and Elrond and Galadriel, all of whom fear the Ring. Later, in "The Council of Elrond," Tolkien (primarily through Gandalf) tries to diminish Bombadil's power, but this retroactive explanation does not fully satisfy the reader.
It has been a very long time since I first read LotR, and I don't remember my first impression of Bombadil. That's one reason I love the participation of first-time readers on this forum. But I don't ever remember fearing for the lives of the hobbits anywhere along the way. After all, Tolkien gives away the happy ending in his Prologue, and hints at it many times throughout the book. What Tolkien does not give away is the melancholy undertone to that happy ending. So whatever happened to the hobbits, I was sure they would survive it.
As for the forest, Old Man Willow may be evil, but most of the trees just hate two-legged creatures because of a long history of deforestation in Middle-earth, and Tolkien himself expressed sympathy for that point of view. Tom is an exception either because the trees have no power over him, or because he is really a spirit that just takes the form of a two-legged creature, or both. But as you note Tolkien's characters are often more complex than some people give them credit for. Tom is good, for example, but is also rather passive, and does nothing to fight Sauron. Note that he does not cut down Old Man Willow, but simply sends him off to sleep, like a naughty child. Within the Old Forest, at least, there is no clean line between good and evil.
Besides offering the hobbits a chance at their own adventure, the chapters involving Bombadil may also foreshadow Frodo's pacifism at the end of the book. And indeed Bombadil may teach Frodo a lesson no other mentor can teach; not how to gain power over the Ring, but how to resist the Ring by letting go of all desire for power or control. Gandalf and Elrond and Galadriel have too much invested in the outcome of the War to teach Frodo this lesson. Indeed Gandalf himself goes to Bombadil for lessons on how to gather moss at the end of the book. Yet Tolkien is not a pacifist as such; after all, Gandalf is no pacifist. Tolkien just sees value in pacifism, as does Gandalf, who does not resent Bombadil's refusal to get involved.
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Curious
Gondolin
May 25 2007, 6:11pm
Post #78 of 108
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Tom does seem to be an immortal spirit of some kind,
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and so does Goldberry. In The Silmarillion spirits take the form of two-legged creatures all the time, but only Tom and Goldberry do so in The Hobbit and LotR. It did not occur to me that everything involving Bombadil is a dream, but I suppose that is a hard argument to refute. More importantly, I agree that the encounters with Bombadil have a dreamlike quality to them, but then so does the entire adventure.
When the hobbits return to the Shire at the end of the book, Merry compares the whole adventure to a dream. Frodo counters by comparing returning to the Shire to a dream, perhaps because Frodo, unlike the other hobbits, has become a permanent part of the world outside the Shire, and will return to it before the end of the book. At any rate, there are several episodes in the adventure that resemble dreams -- or nightmares.
Tom will come up later in the story, although perhaps not in the way you may expect. But be careful reading the posts here if you have not finished the story. We generally assume that everyone has read the story in this forum, so there are many spoilers.
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Curious
Gondolin
May 25 2007, 6:22pm
Post #79 of 108
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Comparing and contrasting Goldberry and Galadriel
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might tease out some of the meaning Tolkien saw in Goldberry. Goldberry is like and unlike a Fairy Queen. She certainly seems to be an immortal spirit of some kind, and as beautiful as Galadriel, but Goldberry somehow has more in common with hobbits than elves do. For one thing, she is the neighbor of the hobbits. For another, unlike Galadriel, she seems to have lived in that area forever, and has no plans to leave. I think she could be considered a nature or water spirit of some kind, and the hobbits live quite close to nature.
But Bombadil and Goldberry are not central to the tale, and I agree with Peter Jackson's decision to simply skip over them in the movies. I like the way he does it, though -- the adventures could have happened off stage. I would rather see a change like that than see them appear but play a radically different role in the story. I would rather see the story abridged than altered.
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a.s.
Doriath
May 25 2007, 6:55pm
Post #80 of 108
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yes, of course!! forgot about that!! //
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"an seileachan"
"But you see, Meg, just because we don't understand doesn't mean that the explanation doesn't exist"
~~~A Wrinkle in Time
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
May 25 2007, 6:56pm
Post #81 of 108
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First off, I don't believe they are fasting (though they are); I believe Tom has a "power" over them--for what reason I don't know. He's keeping them in their seats listening rather than doing anything else like eating.
I agree that they are not intentionally fasting -- that's just a curious effect of Tom's tales; Tolkien specifically tells us that the hobbits had lunch on September 24, 25, 26 and 28, but on this day, September 27, he doesn't point out that hobbits skip a meal.
I also find it peculiar that Tom and Goldberry never eat a meal with the hobbits.
Actually, I think they have two suppers with the hobbits, though they are absent for two breakfasts. On the first night: "Before long, washed and refreshed, the hobbits were seated at the table, two on each side, while at either end sat Goldberry and the Master. It was a long and merry meal." On the second night: "And let us have food and drink!’ cried Tom. ‘Long tales are thirsty. And long listening’s hungry work, morning, noon, and evening!’" And as Tom bids the hobbits farewell, "They begged him to come at least as far as the inn and drink once more with them."
Frodo finds Tom and he's always singing and rhyming (odd to find a man in the middle of the Old Forest, no?).
Well, Tom says he was on an errand. But here's a question for you: what happens just before Tom appears?
Do we truly know that the wight was still present? The light vanished and he heard a snarling noise. Could this be the sound of a wight "dying" or losing its power over its prisoners?
Well, what does Frodo do after he cuts off the hand? And what happens after that?
"Strider! You seem to have a lot of names." ... Is this the character you spoke of?
No indeed, but I hadn't realized that you were still reading LotR, and don't want to spoil your discovery of the answer I had in mind (Book IV, Ch. 5). Good point about Aragorn! (What do you think of the cryptic reference to him in the Barrow-downs chapter?) He does have a lot of names, doesn't he?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Tolkien Illustrated! Thanks to everyone who participated in our sixteen-week discussion of Tolkien-inspired artwork! New posts on this subject are welcome at any time.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 25 2007, 7:18pm
Post #82 of 108
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that a difference between Tom and Treebeard is that Treebeard is very much a part of nature - but then I realised that argument has no basis because we don't know *what* Tom is!
However the happenings of the world directly affect Treebeard - at least in so far as they affect his forest. He is angry about the loss of his trees, and I think he's also angry that some Ents have become tree-ish, leaving more of the tree-herding responsibilities to the fewer Ents. And of course he's quietly furious at the traitorous moves of Saruman against the Entwood - not to mention at the Orcs and their axes.
Tom, by comparison, just doesn't give the world any thought.
While Treebeard is unexplainable to a great extent (at least without the Silmarillion creation story), he is understandable to readers. We've seen trees in their magesty and so have a frame of reference for the Ents. But Tom? We've got bupkiss. (Unless it's a reminder of a drunken neighbour returning home, loudly, before dawn.)
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 25 2007, 7:41pm
Post #84 of 108
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I didn't know that, although I'm not surprised - nearly all of LOTR seems to have been a revelation to Tolkien. Remember him writing that Faramir appeared out of the woods, and he had no idea at that time who he was?
Stephen King has said that he doesn't create his stories: He digs them up. Whenever he tries to 'create' he comes up with rubbish, but 'digging them up' reveals a complete story for him. I wonder how Tolkien viewed his writing process?
Does anyone know if he mentioned this in his letters?
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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ahartfor_UVM
Registered User
May 25 2007, 8:43pm
Post #85 of 108
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what happens just before Tom appears?
Well I'm not sure what you're exactly looking for here. Let's see. Frodo lights the willow on fire, then runs along the path yelling help help help! It's windy. He hears singing. The wind dies out.
Well, what does Frodo do after he cuts off the hand? And what happens after that?
hmm. "Frodo fell forward over Merry, and Merry's face felt cold." then he remembers and sings the song that Tom taught him at which he appears and saves the day. I'm still skeptical.
and finally, thank you for not spoiling storyline. I shall be on book four by next week!? I hope
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
May 25 2007, 9:00pm
Post #86 of 108
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were the subject of this thread that drogo led back in early January as part of discussion of narratives in Tolkien's works. Some good stuff there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tolkien Illustrated! Thanks to everyone who participated in our sixteen-week discussion of Tolkien-inspired artwork! New posts on this subject are welcome at any time.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
May 25 2007, 9:43pm
Post #87 of 108
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after finishing my post.
what happens just before Tom appears?
--------------------
Well I'm not sure what you're exactly looking for here. Let's see. Frodo lights the willow on fire, then runs along the path yelling help help help! It's windy. He hears singing. The wind dies out.
I find squire's argument that Frodo's cry for help is a kind of prayer quite convincing. But that needn't be the last word on the subject.
[What happens after Frodo] cuts off the hand?
--------------------
(H)e remembers and sings the song that Tom taught him at which he appears and saves the day. I'm still skeptical.
The wraith seems very much "alive" until Tom attacks it with a song:
"At these words there was a cry and part of the inner end of the chamber fell in with a crash. Then there was a long trailing shriek, fading away into an unguessable distance; and after that silence."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tolkien Illustrated! Thanks to everyone who participated in our sixteen-week discussion of Tolkien-inspired artwork! New posts on this subject are welcome at any time.
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myra_UVM
Lindon
May 25 2007, 11:34pm
Post #88 of 108
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I was just finishing up book 2 last night and so saw Boromir's "true colors" revealed. Though, he does fall down and weep after Frodo disappears, realizing that he had gotten caught up in lust for the ring. It took a moment or two after the ring's disappearence for him to come out of its spell and then he was ashamed. I felt it was a dangerous decision for Frodo to go off alone in the first place, and even more dangerous for him to use the ring, especially with the eye watching for him, but it seems that if he hadn't Boromir may have killed him. I like how Tolkien foreshadowed that moment by giving small glimpses here and there of Boromir's desire. Another thing I find interesting is how important eyes are in the story; Tolkien frequently describes emotions, especially of anger or lust, in the eyes of a character. Also, Frodo sees the giant eye in the mirror of Galadriel.
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Daughter of Nienna
Hithlum
May 26 2007, 12:33am
Post #89 of 108
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Tom Bombadil
“Essays are just someone’s opinion, though with research and considered thought, they are not gospel
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.
Story of Tom Bombadil
The True Story of Tom Bombadil – Bromwell School: Quotes full passages from LotR and Tolkien letters, and discussed in-depth from a school teacher’s perspective (no theories about Tom’s nature are presented).
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.
DEFINITIONS AND DESCRIPTIONS:
1. Tom Bombadil The Encyclopedia of Arda (EoA)
2. Tom Bombadil – Wikipedia
3. Tom Bombadil – TolkienWiki
4. Tom Bombadil – Council of Elrond Encyclopedia
5. Who or what was Tom Bombadil? – in brief, by Steuard Jensen
6. Tom Bombadil – Annals of Arda
7. FAQs Tom Bombadil – Tolkien Meta FAQ
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.
ESSAYS: on the Mystery of Who or What is Tom is
1. Tom Bombadil The Encyclopedia of Arda (EoA) – a good outline of the discussion with no opinion stated
2. Who is Tom Bombadil? An Essay by Gene Hargrove (Same essay at LotR Fanatics .com)
3. Viable Possibilities Bombadil (for what Tom is) – outlines the varous theories by Steuard Jensen
4. What is Tom Bombadil? Essay, summary and discussion by Steuard Jensen
5. Bombadil Discovered by Barb Beier [Grey Havens]
6. Who or what was Tom Bombadil? From: the Tolkien FAQ by William D.B. Loos – Grey Havens
7. J.R.R. Tolkien's Tom BombadilAn essay by Blake Bolinger (answer to Essay by Gene Hargrove)
8. Count, Count, Weigh, Divide – Michael Martinez-Suite101
9. Who is Tom Bombadil? – by Edoardo Albert – Special Guest: ToRn Green Books
10. Tom Bombadil – Bilbo's World: excerpts fom ‘Letters’ and Shippey quotes
11. Bombadil: – Argument Enders (has Letter quotes) - Middle-earth Tours, TORn
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.
HOW TOM IS ESSENTIAL TO STORY: (and how film is affected)
1. Clarifying the Bombadil Issue – an opinion on essentiality
2. Why cut Bombadil? – an opinion
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.
THOUGHTS, COMMENTS:
1. Tom Bombadil by Wolfgang G. Wettach – Encyclopedia of Middle-earth
2. Bombadil & Goldberry – Art and comments – Middle-Earth Tours – TOR.n
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.
SONGS & POEMS:
1. The Adventures of Tom Bombadil [Night Gem]
2. Adventures of Tom Bombadil – An Excerpt
3. Tom Bombadil's Song – Tom’s Song: The Grey Havens Songs & Tales
*** World of Old Man Willow - Tibute to Old Man Willow (Daughter of Nienna — TORn Reading Room)
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.
MORE INFORMATION and LINK PAGES:
1. Internet Sites Discussing Tom Bombadil
2. Bombadil links - Gene Hargrove’s links
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.
Compiled by
D of N
Art Gallery Revised, Aloha & Mahalo, Websites Directory
Nienna: “ those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope . . . All those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom." — Valaquenta
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weaver
Gondolin
May 26 2007, 12:42am
Post #90 of 108
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Like you, I found this chapter kind of odd on my first reading. But then I led a discussion on it on this board -- mostly just asking questions, as you are -- and found out there's a lot more there than I thought. Some of the key points that people brought out related to the relationship of the Forest to the Shire, wild nature vs. tamed nature, what brought Tom to the Forest when he was needed, and the place the hobbits arrive at the very end of the chapter. What observations can you make on those topics?
To me, though, no matter what you think of Tom, his presence is signficant, if for nothing more than the episode where he actually handles the Ring. Tolkien is also fond of repeating certain patterns in the story so don't dismiss Tom too lightly as his entry into the story is one of the foundations of much of what is to come.
Weaver
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Daughter of Nienna
Hithlum
May 26 2007, 12:44am
Post #91 of 108
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said something similar about stone that he carved?
...at least he did in the movie: Agony & Ecstay
.
Art Gallery Revised, Aloha & Mahalo, Websites Directory
Nienna: “ those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope . . . All those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom." — Valaquenta
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
May 26 2007, 4:33am
Post #93 of 108
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I always think it's funny when someone thinks I'm a guy (although clearly a guy would never use "Tee hee!" as a subject line). I just wanted to say that I don't think that the Tom Bombadil episode was an actual dream, just that it feels dream-like. On the other hand, like FarFromHome, I have dreamed that I was dreaming something. I'm liking this theory more and more, even though it doesn't stand up in the timeline.
Where's Frodo?
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
May 27 2007, 7:48pm
Post #95 of 108
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Wow, thanks for that link! But new readers be aware that it's full of spoilers.
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Though it's always worth bearing in mind squire's stricture about Bombadil ("an enigma onto which any critic only projects his/her personality") I think he could serve two or more different but compatible functions.
I somehow missed that post of squire's the first time around. What an amazing prose poem! I think I even recognized one of my own contributions to the discussion, and of course several other people's. But he put those ideas together into a very moving summary of LotR. I'm definitely saving that post to my hard drive.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Istar Indigo
Nevrast
May 28 2007, 1:54pm
Post #96 of 108
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Greetings all,
I've been on the road most of the weekend and only sporadically able to check posts. I'll be back in Burlington this afternoon and hope to respond to some of these posts. I love bombadil's presence in the text and could talk about that for a while. Thank all of you for the wonderful responses!
CV
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a.s.
Doriath
May 28 2007, 3:55pm
Post #97 of 108
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Tom, dreams, time: our previous discussion
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We discussed these Tom chapters in Spring of 2005, see this link
Some of the subthreads open slowly, but there is some really fascinating conjecture about Tom and dreams/space-time/nature, etc.
Just in case you have some time to kill. Pun intended.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"But you see, Meg, just because we don't understand doesn't mean that the explanation doesn't exist"
~~~A Wrinkle in Time
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Atlas
Nevrast
May 29 2007, 6:39am
Post #98 of 108
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I am so accustomed to not having to worry about spoilers that I fear I may have inadvertantly spoiled part of the tale for you if you are reading the books for the first time? My apologies. Though perhaps you are familiar with the story from the movies?
There is more on Boromir later, never fear. I haven't given the entire game away.
"The grand scheme of God is inscrutable; the object of life is virtue, not pleasure; and obedience, not liberty, is the means of its attainment." ~Russell Kirk
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myra_UVM
Lindon
May 29 2007, 12:21pm
Post #99 of 108
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It is the first time I'm reading the books but I've seen the movies before. After posting I started on book 3 and sure enough Boromir met his end. HIs character wasn't all bad, he did show remorse. Further on in the chapter The Riders of Rohan, Aragorn mentions that he took Boromir's word over Gandalf's in a certain matter which I found interesting.
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eliza_uvm
Registered User
May 29 2007, 3:25pm
Post #100 of 108
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I have to say that I have very mixed feelings about Boromir. In some ways he's good, but not really. I think he's one of Tolkien's most "human" characters, simply because he's so darn complicated and you can't neatly separate him into "good" or "bad". And I won't spoil your reading for later on (this is actually different than in the movies, which is my one BIG pet peeve with Peter Jackson), but when you get to Faramir, I'd love to hear what you think. There's some cool stuff with good and evil and the fact that Faramir and Boromir are brothers. Now I'll shut my mouth so I don't say more! 
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