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Bakshi Discussion Chapter 18: Inside the Mine

Darkstone
Immortal


May 29 2007, 2:04am

Post #1 of 6 (695 views)
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Bakshi Discussion Chapter 18: Inside the Mine Can't Post

“All CGI is rotoscope. What do you think CGI is today? All those special effects and everything you do—I was using primitive CGI. Stop calling it rotoscope. All animators are now being thrown out of work because all of CGI and all of animation's going rotoscope. The only difference between what I did—this is serious now—and what they're doing is they've got this other step the computer does that's called rendering. So you take their rot scoped [expletive deleted] action, and you render it like I've never seen anything possibly—hair is glistening, teeth are shining—they cover up all the rotoscope with all this fantastic rendering, but it's all rotoscope! They call it CGI, I call it rotoscope with machine rendering.”
-Ralph Bakshi


1. What did you think of the architecture of Moria?

2. There are no signs of any Dwarven bodies or goblin arrows. Does a seemingly deserted Moria aid in building suspense?

3. Frodo sees a pair of glowing green eyes. Does this work to foreshadow the appearance of Gollum?

4. What character moments are there in this section? Especially how is Pippin developed?

5. Gandalf seems particularly on edge. Why? How is William Squire’s voice acting here?

6. Does animation double John A. Neris succeed in showing Gandalf’s increasing weariness?

7. Compare/contrast with Jackson's version.

8. In Letter 271 Tolkien criticized Morton Grady Zimmerman's screen treatment of LOTR. “One of his chief faults is his tendency to anticipate scenes or devices used later, thereby flattening the tale out” Between Bakshi and Jackson, who is the worst offender with this particular sequence?

9. Any other comments?


Extra credit:

The film Bakshi made before Lord of the Rings was “Wizards” (1977).

“Wizards was about the creation of the state of Israel and the Holocaust, about the Jews looking for a homeland, and about the fact that fascism was on the rise again, I thought. That was way before the Right Wing made their appearance again, and I felt that things were shifting back. So on that level, Wizards was a very personal film.”

Tolkien denied LOTR was an allegory. Is Wizards the lesser for being such?

“I wanted to make a film for the J.R.R. Tolkien audiences. Certainly Tolkien had a strong anti-war message in his Rings books. I wanted to do another kind of version, kind of an American pulp comic version, then I went on to do Lord Of The Rings.”

How is Wizards “an American pulp comic version” of LOTR? For that matter is Bakshi’s LOTR also an American pulp comic version? Is Jackson’s version a New Zealand pulp comic version? What is lost in each version? Is anything gained?




Next: What do Frodo Baggins and Judy Frog have in common?

All is not gold that glitters,
All is not pure that shines.
Follow your mother's teachings
And happiness will be thine!
-Bugs Bunny, "Bowery Bugs", 1949.


weaver
Half-elven

May 29 2007, 4:17pm

Post #2 of 6 (530 views)
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All that is CGI does not glitter... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm...hadn't thought before that Rotoscoping is a primitive version of CGI. Bakshi sounds a bit defensive, though, in terms of explaining his pioneering work in the field. He'd be better to take the high ground and acknowledge the better work that came after him, rather than trying to make himself into the giant whose shoulders others have come to stand on.

That said, my main problem with the rotoscoping is not how it looks but the lack of integration of that technique with the rest of the film. It looks like two different movies are going on every time he uses it. Kind of like Dick Van Dyke dancing with the penguins in Mary Poppins. It makes it feel like a kid's fantasy rather than a true story.

And now, to answer your most excellent questions:

1. What did you think of the architecture of Moria?

Kind of watercolorish. Everything is blurred out, so it doesn't seem very substantial or real. Lots of hard angles, though, similar to Jackson's Moria; did Bakshi base his off of Lee and Howe's imagery as well? There a couple of places with faces on the walls, though, which are kind of interesting. Not very dwarven, but interesting -- seems more like the kind of thing you'd find in Lost World kind of story.

2. There are no signs of any Dwarven bodies or goblin arrows. Does a seemingly deserted Moria aid in building suspense?

The suspense for me comes more from Frodo and Gandalf's reactions to the place. The lack of life doesn't do much for me either way, as Gandalf's constant reminders to be quiet and secret affirm that something is very much lurking about in Moria and they don't want to draw it out.

3. Frodo sees a pair of glowing green eyes. Does this work to foreshadow the appearance of Gollum?

Gollum who? Makes sense later, after they are out of the mines and they hear Gollum's footsteps, I think. At this point, it could be "anything" after them. So it foreshadows something, but hard to tie it to Gollum, really, without any other references.

4. What character moments are there in this section? Especially how is Pippin developed?

Well, he's got a wig on it seems, given his interesting change in hair color for the well scene. I don't know if Pippin is developed as much here as Gandalf, whose shown first yelling at him and then being tender to him. Pippin seems like a scared kid to me more than anything.

5. Gandalf seems particularly on edge. Why? How is William Squire’s voice acting here?

Gandalf isn't telling all that he knows about Moria -- the stress of that is getting to him, esp. when anyone in the Fellowship acts in ways that might reveal the real dangers of the place. He seems more "human" here, and the strain and frustration in his voice supplied by the actor contributes to that.

6. Does animation double John A. Neris succeed in showing Gandalf’s increasing weariness?

Lots of hobbling and limping is what I see. Comes across more as him having a rock in his wizard shoe more than weariness to me, though.

7. Compare/contrast with Jackson's version.

Jackson's choice to include more information on Gollum in this scene, and a final conversation between Frodo and Gandalf before Gandalf's fall was well done. I miss those additions in this more faithful book version. The fight scene at Balin's tomb seems underdone to me in Bakshi, and overdone, compared to the book, for me in Jackson. But Jackson used his Cave Troll fight as the opening act for a three-part drama of escape from Moria, and I do think having a stronger lead in to the Balrog makes that scene more powerful.

8. In Letter 271 Tolkien criticized Morton Grady Zimmerman's screen treatment of LOTR. “One of his chief faults is his tendency to anticipate scenes or devices used later, thereby flattening the tale out” Between Bakshi and Jackson, who is the worst offender with this particular sequence?

As I said above, I think the three-part escape drama in Jackson (cave troll battle, collapsing bridge, Balrog duel) works well, because each scene ups the one before it. I don't think repeating tension or fights flattens the story here, at least not for me. Bakshi's orcs look a lot like his Nazgul, though, because of the rotoscoping; they look scary, but they are defeated fairly quickly every time we see them. They feel overused to me, by comparison, so I pick Bakshi for worst offender in terms of flattening.

9. Any other comments?

Overall, a nice rough draft for Jackson to follow and improve upon.

Extra credit:

Haven't seen Wizards, but to comment on "Pulp comic" versions of LOTR -- Well...as a friend of mine said, Jackson made LOTR succeed as a mainstream film. That meant adding things that would broaden its appeal, which, when they enhance the story, work for me. I like a lot of the changes in terms of things they did to shine a light on parts of the story that would particularly appeal to a wider audience, but which were based on book elements -- Arwen's choice, Gandalf's attachment to the hobbits, Boromir's tragedy, Denethor's relationship with Faramir, Aragorn's bond with Frodo, etc. I can accept other changes, like Frodo telling Sam to "go home", or Aragorn needing to come to terms with his destiny, because of how they resolved these things and used these additions to develop the characters, or because of how Tolkien's original take might be misinterpreted without the full context of the written tale. Things that were added just to be audience pleasers or because they looked cool -- Legolas taking down the Mumak, cascading skulls, Denethor's fall from the tower are my least favorite moments, but they did play well with every theater audience I saw the films with.

Jackson and company were very skilled at knowing how to make LOTR into a film that would have broad appeal. Lots of things were sacrificed to do this, but I don't know if that's a bad thing, as I don't know if keeping them would have made a "better" film, by these film makers at least. The book is always there, and with luck the films will bring more people to it, and will help to keep it from slipping off the radar screen. The films to me enhance the odds that the books will be remembered and read, and not forgotten in years to come, and that's a good thing.

Weaver



drogo
Lorien


May 30 2007, 3:53am

Post #3 of 6 (495 views)
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70s CGI [In reply to] Can't Post

1. What did you think of the architecture of Moria?

For the time I think it worked pretty well, though it lacked the grandeur that Alan Lee gave it (his attention to detail in design for the Dwarven culture was quite effecitive). I didn't mind the "70s CGI" effects at the time, though.

2. There are no signs of any Dwarven bodies or goblin arrows. Does a seemingly deserted Moria aid in building suspense?

That is an omission; it is too sterile.

3. Frodo sees a pair of glowing green eyes. Does this work to foreshadow the appearance of Gollum?

That worked for me. it was a nice touch.

4. What character moments are there in this section? Especially how is Pippin developed?

I liked the Pippin sequences here better than the PJ ones in which Pippin was even more the Fool of a Took.

5. Gandalf seems particularly on edge. Why? How is William Squire’s voice acting here?
6. Does animation double John A. Neris succeed in showing Gandalf’s increasing weariness?

I thought Gandalf came across well in this scene. It did develop the suspense and sense of danger.


Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea


Jun 2 2007, 3:52am

Post #4 of 6 (460 views)
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Georgia O'Keefe moment [In reply to] Can't Post

1. What did you think of the architecture of Moria?
I have to point out the thing on the wall that looks like an enormous -- I mean enormous -- cow's skull. What the heck is that meant to be? The other faces on the walls were puzzling too -- more orc-like than dwarf-like in my opinion.

2. There are no signs of any Dwarven bodies or goblin arrows. Does a seemingly deserted Moria aid in building suspense?

Yes, it works for me.

3. Frodo sees a pair of glowing green eyes. Does this work to foreshadow the appearance of Gollum?
It's way too brief a shot. Even if you know what it's meant to foreshadow, you'd miss it if you blinked.


4. What character moments are there in this section? Especially how is Pippin developed?
I pride myself in being able to tell Merry and Pippin apart in this movie, but it looks to me like Merry is the one who dropped the stone in the well. Merry is the blonde one and the hobbit at the well is blonde.


Where's Frodo?


Morwen
Rohan


Jun 3 2007, 7:36pm

Post #5 of 6 (453 views)
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Moria [In reply to] Can't Post

1. What did you think of the architecture of Moria?

Not as impressive as in the Jackson films. Bakshi focuses in on the characters and doesn't give us much of a view of Moria itself. We could be in any dark, underground structure.

2. There are no signs of any Dwarven bodies or goblin arrows. Does a seemingly deserted Moria aid in building suspense?

Not for me. PJ's cobwebby skulls and dusty orc arrows were quite scary. Bakshi mostly uses Gandalf's edginess to show us this is not a safe place, which I think he carries off. But Jackson's props do add to the ambiance.

3. Frodo sees a pair of glowing green eyes. Does this work to foreshadow the appearance of Gollum?

This did work for me, but I don't know if folks who hadn't read the books were able to make any sense of it.

4. What character moments are there in this section? Especially how is Pippin developed?

I liked the Gandalf-Pippin interaction here. Bakshi's Gandalf was tough but tender. Gandalf in PJ's version was simply angry.

5. Gandalf seems particularly on edge. Why? How is William Squire’s voice acting here?

I thought it was fine. Gandalf's sense that the Fellowship was in danger came across well for me.

6. Does animation double John A. Neris succeed in showing Gandalf’s increasing weariness?

Not for me. Gandalf seems edgy and hypervigilant, not weary.

7. Compare/contrast with Jackson's version.

The well scene in this version is, like much of the Bakshi version, more true to the book. I love the fact that Bakshi included the mysterious tap-tap. However, no animation can equal the look on Billy Boyd's face after Pippin realizes he screwed up.

9. Any other comments?

I like the fact that Gimli is the character that explains mithril to us, although I don't think he'd really need to explain it to Legolas. Surely Legolas knew what mithril was.

Extra credit:

Well, it's been a very long time since I've seen Wizards, which I loved enough to see in the theater more than once, but to me it seems like a very different type of story than LOTR. Wizards is definitely a 60s antiwar movie, while LOTR has a broader scope although both let us see the horrors of war. I think Wizards is , as Bakshi says, a very personal movie, while LOTR has a more epic point of view.

Maybe I'll just have to rent Wizards again.


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If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore,
Thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 3 2007, 8:43pm

Post #6 of 6 (454 views)
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Wondered about that hair... [In reply to] Can't Post

Pippin's hair-color change: looks like someone messed up in the coloring department, and gave him Merry's hair. Strange that Bakshi wouldn't catch that gaffe.

I agree about those blinking eyes - we have no idea who or what that is, but we do know it does not portend well!

I am having such problems watching that rotoscoping! Good analogy: it is like a reverse Mary Poppins, trying to bring real-life elements into an animated movie, or two different movies that were cut into pieces and spliced together.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"History often resembles "Myth", because they are both ultimately of the same stuff."

 
 

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