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drogo
Lorien
May 24 2007, 11:20pm
Post #1 of 5
(555 views)
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Bakshi Discussion Chapter 17 -- the Gates of Moria
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The sequence opens with a shot of jagged peaks as the camera tilts down and zooms in to reveal Gandalf standing before the Moria Gate, desperately trying to find the words to open it.
Sam is trying to comfort Bill the Pony, but Pippin voices doubts that Gandalf will be able to overcome the Elf magic.
We then see Legolas and Gimli sitting together. Legolas makes a wisecrack about the Dwarves placing "speak, friend, and enter" above a door that cannot be opened.
Merry asks Frodo why he is looking out at the lake; he says he is afraid of it.
Then Boromir, obviously angered by the delay, blurts out that if a wizard should have accompanied them, it should have been Aruman. Aragorn bristles at that remark, but suddenly Gandalf laughs and shouts out "Mellon!" The doors open, and Legolas remarks to Gimil that all you had to say was "friend" and enter. Gimli ruefully comments that those were happier times.
Gandalf urges them to go, but we then see Frodo, who is facing the gateway, beting grabbed by a tentacled arm. The Watcher then sticks several tentacles out of the water, and tries to drag him in while Sam stabs at the arms with his short sword. Aragorn cuts at the arm to release him, and they company runs into Moria while the arms grasp the doors and pull them shut.
Questions:
1. Once again, compare this sequence to that in the book and in the Jackson film. How does Baskhi's scene fare in terms of tension, character development, pacing, atmosphere, the "magic" of the scene, etc.?
2. This is the first time we see Legolas and Gimli conversing. How does their relationship coma across?
3. Does Bakshi's Watcher succeed as a monster, or fall short?
4. Any other thoughts about the entrance to Moria?
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
May 25 2007, 3:22am
Post #2 of 5
(469 views)
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1. Once again, compare this sequence to that in the book and in the Jackson film. How does Baskhi's scene fare in terms of tension, character development, pacing, atmosphere, the "magic" of the scene, etc.?
This scene is well done. I think the pacing is good and I like the side conversations while Gandalf is trying to find the password. It's particularly refreshing to see a Frodo-Merry conversation in a nod to their close friendship in the book. I also enjoyed the tension of the Aragorn-Boromir argument that is instantly resolved with a firm handshake (wristshake?) as soon as the doors open.
2. This is the first time we see Legolas and Gimli conversing. How does their relationship coma across?
Friendly enough.
3. Does Bakshi's Watcher succeed as a monster, or fall short?
My main quibble is that the sudden appearance didn't make sense. It was suitably threatening and horrible otherwise, and we're led to think that it ate Bill the Pony, so overall it was a successful monster.
4. Any other thoughts about the entrance to Moria?
Those are some tall doors!
Where's Frodo?
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weaver
Half-elven
May 25 2007, 5:21pm
Post #3 of 5
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Some random thoughts:
Is this the first time Bill the pony gets a name? The first time Sam says "Easy Bill" the shot is so far away, and my eyesight so bad, that I thought Sam was calling one of the hobbits by that name. Since Merry and Pippin are so unmemorable at this point it almost makes you think they picked up a new hobbit guy named Bill along the way somewhere.
Bakshi makes it pretty clear that Bill bites the dust, though -- Jackson caved on that one!
Elijah Wood and Bakshi's Frodo both have very big eyes and are good at looking worried. The bit where Bakshi's Frodo says he's afraid of the lake makes me think he's Elijah's animated double...
Scenes like this make me think Jackson was doing a remake of Bakshi up to this point, rather than his own take on the book -- a lot of the scene plays out in almost the same way. Bigger monster fight in Jackson's version, though.
Gimli looks taller than Legoloas as they sit and talk on that rock together. Kind of miss a more antagonistic reply from the dwarf here.
Overall, one of Bakshi's better scenes and I guess one of Tolkien's easier sequences to put on screen, since both Jackson and Bakshi pull it off credibly for me.
Weaver
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 28 2007, 1:37pm
Post #4 of 5
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Maybe it was the sound on my rental, or maybe it's my not-so-great hearing, but did anyone else hear Gandalf say "methlon" instead of "mellon"?
Notice that the doors swing inwards, instead of outwards.
Bakshi's Watcher looks like a glorified octopus - except for the three-fingered "hands" on the end of each tentacle - but I actually prefer it to the Frodo-for-a-snack creature in Jackson's version, which is outstanding, but I'm not much of a horror fan!
That "happier times" quip is a nice nod to the backstory.
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"History often resembles "Myth", because they are both ultimately of the same stuff."
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Morwen
Rohan
Jun 3 2007, 6:37pm
Post #5 of 5
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1. Once again, compare this sequence to that in the book and in the Jackson film. How does Baskhi's scene fare in terms of tension, character development, pacing, atmosphere, the "magic" of the scene, etc.?
I think it works pretty well. This is our first sign that Gandalf is fallible, and some of the characters are beginning to doubt him, while others are not. We see the beginning of tension between Boromir and Aragorn. This seems to me to be mostly a character development scene. The members of the Fellowship still have to learn to trust each other, and I think Bakshi carries it off.
2. This is the first time we see Legolas and Gimli conversing. How does their relationship coma across?
We can see that there is still a certain degree of elf-dwarf antagonism, but they are interacting and taking steps to get to know each other. Legolas makes a slightly snarky remark, and poor Gimli is so disappointed about the doors not opening that he doesn't even have a snappy comeback.
3. Does Bakshi's Watcher succeed as a monster, or fall short?
Kind of a "meh" monster. I thought Jackson's Watcher was much scarier.
4. Any other thoughts about the entrance to Moria?
Poor Bill! Bakshi certainly sealed his fate. Why leave out the part where Bill runs away?
In the book, Sam rescues Frodo from the Watcher. Both Bakshi and Jackson got Aragorn and Boromir involved, I suppose to make the monster seem like a more powerful opponent and increase the tension of the scene, but this does steal a bit of Sam's thunder.
Like Jackson, Bakshi left out Merry's role in discovering the password. I was disappointed.
If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore,
Thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more.
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